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  #31  
Old 05-25-2009, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

Because the Ref isn't supposed to assist either party during battle. They can answer general questions about what a move, item, or ability does, but nothing about how much damage an attack will do. That is not the role of a Referee.

~Jack~
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  #32  
Old 05-25-2009, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Jack of Clovers View Post
Because the Ref isn't supposed to assist either party during battle. They can answer general questions about what a move, item, or ability does, but nothing about how much damage an attack will do. That is not the role of a Referee.

~Jack~
I have to disagree.

A ref is not obliged to answer such a question, but most refs are friendly and will do so.
What is easier, though, is that someone asks "How much damage will Psychic do on his Infernape?", and the refs answers with percentage.

The ref does not give tactical advice, or takes side during the fight by doing this.

And as I stated it, this should be only for finishing moves, it would be too much of a hassle to calculate every single turn. Not everyone can ref, or is available to calculate how much damage an attack can do, and thus I believe I believe they have the right to ask for confirmation of a KO.

This is something very common, even between fellow refs. I've asked this many times:
"I get that (inster move) KO's. Can you confirm this?"
"Yes, it does" or "No, it doesn't" (and I have to check what I'm missing in the damage equation)

I see nothing unfair here, since both sides can ask the referee. But I stress again, the ref can always decline to answer due to workload.
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Xalapeno View Post
Which wise man would that be?

Nice guide Marth, I wish I had it when I began
I believe Crazy said it while I wsa battling him the other day.
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  #34  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Marth View Post
The ref does not give tactical advice, or takes side during the fight by doing this.
Right, but by doing so, the Ref is interferring with the battle by supplying specific attack details, which may alter the outcome. And for that reason, they shouldn't be allowed to do it at all.

~Jack~
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  #35  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Jack of Clovers View Post

Right, but by doing so, the Ref is interferring with the battle by supplying specific attack details, which may alter the outcome. And for that reason, they shouldn't be allowed to do it at all.

~Jack~
Well, as long as long as the calculations are given according to how the stats were the previous turn, and you don't give any information regarding the opponent's move they sent in the current turn, I honestly don't see how it effects the battle in any way other than giving the battlers some assurance when they make a move rather than just blindly saying something like "Flamethrower!" when they don't know how much damage it does.
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  #36  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Jack of Clovers View Post

Right, but by doing so, the Ref is interferring with the battle by supplying specific attack details, which may alter the outcome. And for that reason, they shouldn't be allowed to do it at all.

~Jack~
Then anybody participating in the URPG who is a ref, or can calculate damage has an overwhelming advantage in a battle against someone who does not know how to calculate percentages in the same manner. Uneven playing fields are created, which is exactly what you are trying to prevent.
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  #37  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Marth View Post
I have to disagree.

A ref is not obliged to answer such a question, but most refs are friendly and will do so
When I said no to doing that to somebody they complained to an official :|

How about we let the Head Ref decide this instead of pointless arguing because neither of you two have the power to decide :3

CL: You took what I meant out of context

EDIT: I think it should be put out there that different calcs give different damages. Until there is a standard calc that everyone has to use, it's really not a good idea to be unable to ask a ref if something KOs.
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  #38  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

Essentially, then, you could basically ask until the Ref says "Yes, it will faint." Where's the skill in battling with that?

lol, you guys truly missed out when battles used to be fun. That's how we battled, call an attack and hope it works. If it does, yay!, if it didn't, you'd know for next time. Doing calculations at the same time the Ref does, really takes a lot of the fun and skill out. And the URPG is all about having fun!

Experienced battlers shouldn't ever need to calculate damage against a new battler, 'cause they're more experienced in battles, right? You already have the knowledge and experience advantage anyway. Of which, I'll put a challenge out to the top battlers to see how skillful they really are, by them not using the calc during their battles. haha!

~Jack~
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  #39  
Old 05-25-2009, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Brizer View Post
Then anybody participating in the URPG who is a ref, or can calculate damage has an overwhelming advantage in a battle against someone who does not know how to calculate percentages in the same manner. Uneven playing fields are created, which is exactly what you are trying to prevent.

Exactly right. A ref can provide information if willing should a battler ask for it. Tactical advice is now allowed, but it doesn't hurt to provide a damage percent if a battler is unsure if how much it would actually do. Even more to the point, a ref can explain the mechanics of how a move works such as Metronome or Rest. But only if the battler asks.

I know that I tend to ask refs if a certain move does this or that, and quite a few times it has confirmed what I thought I already knew. However, it's not a tactical bonus since my opponent can do the same thing. I know that there are times where I ask a ref for the damage of one move, only to discover that my opponent had decided to counter me in one form or another. The ref didn't tell me that extra information because I never asked for it. Essentially, this is our "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

A ref is not obliged to give out any of the damage percent, but most are nice enough to do so. It doesn't violate any fairness rules and allows less experienced members a better grasp on the situation. We're trying to encourage smarter battling and asking a ref is a great way to do so.

Besides Jack, back in the day, calculated damage from one person didn't exactly match up with the calculated damage of another person. We called this difference "ref style." The same is true today with different calculators. Critical battles sometimes rely on that 0.1% of damage. You can't just ignore that.
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  #40  
Old 05-25-2009, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

But how can new members (or long returning members) even know about it if it's not listed anywhere witin the rules? Not quite fair if the opponent doesn't even know.

Can we make this an optional rule during battle: Ref help On/Off?

~Jack~
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  #41  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Haze View Post
How is that changing the neutral role? Both battlers have the option of asking. If anything it would make the battle more fair because if a newbie is battling a ref, they're at a disadvantage. The ref can calc all of their moves to choose the best one, while the newbie has to guess until they figure out how the calcs work. It helps them figure out which moves do more and which to use, and imo helps make URPG more competitive.
Indeed. There are different calculators out there, and if you a move ko'ing, the ref might not, and that is vital. It's allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haze View Post
How about we let the Head Ref decide this instead of pointless arguing because neither of you two have the power to decide :3
Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Clovers View Post
Essentially, then, you could basically ask until the Ref says "Yes, it will faint." Where's the skill in battling with that?

lol, you guys truly missed out when battles used to be fun. That's how we battled, call an attack and hope it works. If it does, yay!, if it didn't, you'd know for next time. Doing calculations at the same time the Ref does, really takes a lot of the fun and skill out. And the URPG is all about having fun!

Experienced battlers shouldn't ever need to calculate damage against a new battler, 'cause they're more experienced in battles, right? You already have the knowledge and experience advantage anyway. Of which, I'll put a challenge out to the top battlers to see how skillful they really are, by them not using the calc during their battles. haha!

~Jack~
You are being really stupid. Do you think that we sit here calculating whether Arcanine's Flamethrower 2HKO's Venusaur? A lot of experienced URPG'ers could probably give you a pretty accuracte estimate of the damage that does from the top of their head. I can tell you it 2HKO's, but since I know it doesn't OHKO with sunny weather it's less than 67%. So it's probably around 60-65%. We have no need to calculate damage against new battlers, we know things like that from the top of our head. It's calculator differences and other tight calls that make us confirm with the ref.

If you're not having fun, be my guest and leave. We still have a lot of fun battling.
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  #42  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Clovers View Post
But how can new members (or long returning members) even know about it if it's not listed anywhere witin the rules? Not quite fair if the opponent doesn't even know.

Can we make this an optional rule during battle: Ref help On/Off?

~Jack~
Jack, back in the days we'd say Alakazam could use Psychic on Porygon 2 would do more than 50% damage. We now know it doesn't XD

Competitive URPG battles involve calculating damage against the opponent -- it turns out to be more of a prediction game than a luck-based game. More like chess and less than... bingo.

Perhaps, instead of making it as a "yes-no" thing, it should be limited to 2 questions per battler per turn, to avoid situations as you described. And also limited to the ref's mood =P
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  #43  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Marth View Post
Perhaps, instead of making it as a "yes-no" thing, it should be limited to 2 questions per battler per turn, to avoid situations as you described. And also limited to the ref's mood =P
Actually, the very last part of what you say defeats the purpose of that rule. As HKim already said the ref is not obliged to give out damage but most are nice enough to do so. If you just go calling random attacks to see what ko's, refs will quickly not be nice enough anymore to do so for you.
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  #44  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Loyal Arcanine View Post
Actually, the very last part of what you say defeats the purpose of that rule. As HKim already said the ref is not obliged to give out damage but most are nice enough to do so. If you just go calling random attacks to see what ko's, refs will quickly not be nice enough anymore to do so for you.
There can always be a happy, joyful referee who wouldn't mind answering all the newbie's questions. Though I doubt such a ref exists, the possibility is still in the air. Just a suggestion.
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ClockKnight (12:06:07): bidoof use take down on wynaut
ClockKnight (12:06:50): wynaut use counter!
ClockKnight (12:06:58): ko
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  #45  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: 10 Mistakes Every Newbie Should Avoid

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Originally Posted by Marth View Post
There can always be a happy, joyful referee who wouldn't mind answering all the newbie's questions. Though I doubt such a ref exists, the possibility is still in the air. Just a suggestion.
If they want to keep answering they can just do so. Jack complained that there is no skill in battling like that, but any sort of decent battler knows that people like that won't be fighting with a lot of skill either way.
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