Member List
Calendar
F.A.Q.
Search
Log Out
Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000  
 

Go Back   Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000 » Pokemon Main Boards » Pokemon: General Board

Pokemon: General Board General discussion about Pokemon in general. If the topic of your thread does not fall into the subjects in the other boards, post it there. In other words, everything else belongs here if it doesn't have a board of its own.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 05-06-2009, 02:34 PM
Articuno's Avatar
Articuno Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 114
Send a message via AIM to Articuno Send a message via MSN to Articuno Send a message via Yahoo to Articuno Send a message via Skype™ to Articuno
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnajacob View Post
Of course it won't survive that... if an EVd one didn't survive then what more could an un-EVd one would stand!?

The defense of Staraptor wouldn't just be strengthen so that its stats in defense is just the same in the defense of a REGULAR un EVd Staraptor...

ugh I can't explain it any farther... can't you understand what I mean?? > l
Patience dear. You seem to have it for EV training but not explaining EV training to somebody.
Let me try and explain what I mean, basically if you don't add ANY defence EVs to a Staraptor at all, then wouldn't a Staraptor with quite a few Defence EVs by normal training stand a better chance against a physical attack? I know it's not going to make THAT big a difference, but if you trained a Staraptor the regular way, it's stats would be more balanced but still optimised for attack/speed. Not as much as an EV trained Staraptor, but it might be slightly more defensive and better at withstanding attacks than the EV trained one.

Now unless the extra defence EVs from regular training make barely no difference (say maybe 10 or so stats higher), then I see a flaw in EV training, leaving your Pokemon even more vulnerable than it would be if it was trained the regular way.

But I suppose since so many of you EV train, it probably is only a few stats difference. In that case I can understand why you EV train.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-06-2009, 02:42 PM
WarpStar's Avatar
WarpStar Offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 40
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Ragnajacob wrote:
Quote:
Warpstar... it's true that you have action replay, and if people knew that you one for EV training using AR, they will get the idea that you're cheating, us who ACTUALLY EV train take some time to do it and just to be defeated by an EV'd mon via AR... that's just simply unforgivable...
With all due respect, Ragnajacob, I think the word "unforgivable" is just a little bit harsh. Pokemon is not a way of life or a major league sport. It is simply a video game like any other, though it is definitely my favorite series of video games. Therefore, I have no problem using the AR to EV train my Pokemon reasonably quickly. I won't have any trouble sleeping at night. Also, as I stated before, I guarantee you that I am by NO MEANS the only person who uses an AR to EV train.

Ragnajacob also wrote:
Quote:
If I can't seem to convince you in EV training maunally... sorry to bug you... I just really hate people who tend to use AR for the sake of winning...
Thank you for accepting the fact that you can't convince me to EV train manually. And, hey, you really haven't bugged me at all. Your posts made me think, and I appreciate that. However, I have just a bit of advice for you now. Hating people because they play a game differently than you is a bit sad. Hatred is not something that I want in MY life, and certainly not over some video game.

Oh, and Articuno, don't worry. I do understand what your point is about the Staraptor. I have thought of that myself countless times as well.

Last edited by WarpStar; 05-06-2009 at 02:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-07-2009, 02:54 AM
Tasteless's Avatar
Tasteless Offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 769
Send a message via AIM to Tasteless
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Even if Staraptor has significantly more defense, let me explain it this way.


Pretend there is a situation where Staraptor, if not EV trained, can take two hits from a Pokemon (dies on third hit), and regular Staraptor can only take one (dies on hit two).

first, this probably would not happen unless it was a very close 2HKO, since there is hardly a difference.

Staraptor that can take two hits is actually MORE likely to lose because it will not kill the other Pokemon fast enough to avoid taking three hits.

Staraptor optimized in attack actually has far more attack than a non-EV trained staraptor, especially with the right IV and nature.


Example of how this might go:


Turn 1:
Un EV'd Staraptor used (attack here)
EV'd bulky Pokemon used (attack here)

Staraptor: 55%
Opponent: 70%

Turn 2:
Un EV'd Staraptor used (attack here)
EV'd bulky Pokemon used (attack here)

Staraptor: 15%
Opponent: 40%

Okay, can we see where this is going? Staraptor has poor defenses, even if randomly (un-EV'd) trained, or even if trained in defense specifically. Staraptor will never EVER have enough defense to really take hits well.

Staraptor NEEDS to kill the other Pokemon before it gets killed.



Well, what about Roost? Can't he do that?

Well, yes and no. Giving the opponent free turns all the time because you have to heal up is not necessarily advisable. It only takes a Pokemon one turn to Swords Dance, one turn to Belly Drum, one turn to.. You get the picture. If they predict it, they also get a free switch to whatever they want. And Staraptor does not want to have to run away. Stealth Rock does 25% damage to it and it does not want to have to switch in over and over. It's also fragile and hard to find a good opportunity to switch it in unless you predict an earthquake or something. Also if you use roost in front of a Pokemon with a strong STAB EQ, it can hit you due to Roost's effect.

A Staraptor that is EV-trained in attack with a 31 IV and +Attack nature has a full 127 more points in attack than a Staraptor with a neutral-attack (not + or - to attack) nature, a poor (0) IV, and no EVs in that stat. Pretend you got lucky and randomly got ~40 EVs put in that stat while just randomly battling and that staraptor still loses by 117 points. Your "perfect" Staraptor reaches 372 attack.

Whereas Staraptor that is EV-trained in defense with a 31 IV and +defense nature has a MAXIMUM defense of 262, and if you apply the same to special defense instead, only 218 maximum.

Also Staraptor has good items like Choice Band or Choice Scarf to boost its attack or speed to 1.5x, and it will benefit more from those items by having a higher mark in that stat.

For example, if my Staraptor only has 280 in attack, choice band will only add 140 to that stat. If I had the full 372 though, it would add a 186. Not only do I have a higher stat to begin with, but I have a higher amount added to the higher stat. You end up with 420 vs 558, this is a big difference.

It's sheer optimization. Staraptor's attack and speed stats have simply higher potential than his other stats, and the items available to him only add incentive to boost those stats. You just get *more. Also in competitive Pokemon many Pokemon are just *barely able to OHKO or 2HKO another Pokemon, and missing only a few points can be the difference between Staraptor sticking around another turn or not.

Also the key is PLANNING.

Plan for what you want your Pokemon to be able to do, look at what stats it would need to do those things, and, if possible, do it.
I'm not saying "if you give staraptor defense EVs you suck," etc.
If you found, through calculation, a Pokemon or two that you run into a lot, that Staraptor would survive at least one more hit from with a handful of EV's (you know, like 40 or less), then it may be worth it.

You want to know what all your Pokemon can do, and not just rely on their "random" training to maybe save your butt once or twice. Consistency is better than occasional luck. That's why people use accurate attacks over power attacks most of the time. You know, Thunderbolt over Thunder unless you're in Rain Dance. It's because for every Pokemon you killed due to having more power, you probably lost to 3 more due to missing.

Last edited by Tasteless; 05-07-2009 at 03:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-07-2009, 09:25 AM
Articuno's Avatar
Articuno Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 114
Send a message via AIM to Articuno Send a message via MSN to Articuno Send a message via Yahoo to Articuno Send a message via Skype™ to Articuno
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Thanks for the information but Gah.. I'm not trying to say the Staraptor in my scenario is defence EV trained, it is NOT EV trained at all, it is trained regularly, like through the game with random Pokemon making the stats balanced all around.

It'll have a slightly higher defence than an EV trained Pokemon in Attack and Speed. Lets say it's fighting Zapdos.

Turn 1:
EV'd speedy Pokemon used (attack here)
Un EV'd Staraptor used (attack here)

Staraptor: 10%
Opponent: 70%

Turn 2:
EV'd speedy Pokemon used (attack here)

Staraptor: 0%
Opponent: 70%

----------------------------------------------------------

Now this is how I see it for an EV trained Staraptor in comparison. (Attack + Speed)

Turn 1:
EV'd speedy Pokemon used (attack here)

Staraptor: 0%
Opponent: 100%

----------------------------------------------------------

Would this not be the case if the Staraptor had NO defence EVs at all? Wouldn't it be as weak as this? However.. wouldn't the regularly trained Staraptor with EVs split up between all stats be able to survive if it has a higher defence, therefore getting at least one hit in?

This is what I'm getting at, I'm not saying we're using a defence EV trained Staraptor, I'm talking about one that isn't EV trained at all.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong but this is how I see it happening, and let me say again.. if the stats acquired from all different Pokemon barely make any difference to the defence of a Staraptor, then I can understand why you'd EV train it. But if it does make that bit of difference like in the scenario above, then I can't. Hmm.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-07-2009, 03:49 PM
Void's Avatar
Void Offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,047
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnajacob View Post
Warpstar... it's true that you have action replay, and if people knew that you one for EV training using AR, they will get the idea that you're cheating, us who ACTUALLY EV train take some time to do it and just to be defeated by an EV'd mon via AR... that's just simply unforgivable...

That's one of competitive battlers hate (for me, that's what I think)... I know that you fought fair by using EVd mon as well, but to tell the fact on how we ACTUALLY TRAIN it... it takes us about A WEEK to level one mon to lvl 100 and for you just using AR... that's a big disgrace for a competitive battler... > l

EDIT #2:

If I can't seem to convince you in EV training maunally... sorry to bug you... I just really hate people who tend to use AR for the sake of winning...
Using AR is by no means wrong. As long as the Pokemon have legit stats, it's fine. After all, you have a choice whether to use AR or not, so you can't really complain that it unfair to you since you spend so long training one Pokemon, when you could have just bought an AR for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Articuno View Post
Thanks for the information but Gah.. I'm not trying to say the Staraptor in my scenario is defence EV trained, it is NOT EV trained at all, it is trained regularly, like through the game with random Pokemon making the stats balanced all around.

It'll have a slightly higher defence than an EV trained Pokemon in Attack and Speed. Lets say it's fighting Zapdos.

Turn 1:
EV'd speedy Pokemon used (attack here)
Un EV'd Staraptor used (attack here)

Staraptor: 10%
Opponent: 70%

Turn 2:
EV'd speedy Pokemon used (attack here)

Staraptor: 0%
Opponent: 70%

----------------------------------------------------------

Now this is how I see it for an EV trained Staraptor in comparison. (Attack + Speed)

Turn 1:
EV'd speedy Pokemon used (attack here)

Staraptor: 0%
Opponent: 100%

----------------------------------------------------------

Would this not be the case if the Staraptor had NO defence EVs at all? Wouldn't it be as weak as this? However.. wouldn't the regularly trained Staraptor with EVs split up between all stats be able to survive if it has a higher defence, therefore getting at least one hit in?

This is what I'm getting at, I'm not saying we're using a defence EV trained Staraptor, I'm talking about one that isn't EV trained at all.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong but this is how I see it happening, and let me say again.. if the stats acquired from all different Pokemon barely make any difference to the defence of a Staraptor, then I can understand why you'd EV train it. But if it does make that bit of difference like in the scenario above, then I can't. Hmm.
Staraptor is a sweeper, not a defensive Pokemon. It's EVs must be concentrated on Attack and Speed, so it can outspeed an KO other Pokemon more easily. Besides, if you are facing a speedy Pokemon which you know can KO Staraptor in one hit, why keep Staraptor in? Switch out to a counter.

I think you aren't quite used to competitive battling yet, once you start and get some experience, you will see what I mean.
__________________

Last edited by Void; 05-07-2009 at 03:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:34 PM
Articuno's Avatar
Articuno Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 114
Send a message via AIM to Articuno Send a message via MSN to Articuno Send a message via Yahoo to Articuno Send a message via Skype™ to Articuno
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

I rarely switch out :> I hate my next Pokemon taking a hit when I can just fight as hard as I can using the current one, then easily finish off with the next Pokemon I send out without losing a turn.
But yes you're right, I am a total newbie to it!
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:40 PM
Void's Avatar
Void Offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,047
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Articuno View Post
I rarely switch out :> I hate my next Pokemon taking a hit when I can just fight as hard as I can using the current one, then easily finish off with the next Pokemon I send out without losing a turn.
But yes you're right, I am a total newbie to it!
Yeah, I can tell, since switching out is one of the main things in competitive battling. Without switching out, you can't win a match. But that's alright, you should be able to learn pretty fast.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 05-07-2009, 07:52 PM
Finch's Avatar
Finch Offline
Inazuma
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 5,201
Send a message via Skype™ to Finch
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

EV training and IV breeding don't ruin the fun of Pokemon at all, for a few reasons:

1. Not all players use these strategies, meaning that if you want to battle competitively you can but it's also possible to just play for fun if you put the effort into finding like-minded casual trainers.

2. When people do EV train, the depth of the competitive game is increased significantly. As a result of specialising Pokemon into certain "jobs" (sweepers, tanks and the like) you end up increasing the strategic element of the game.

3. EV training isn't the single dullest thing in the world. Sure, it's a bit of a grind, but levelling on many other RPG's can be a lot worse. And even if you do find it boring, the feeling of achievement after creating your Pokemon perfectly, as you'd planned for your team, is unbeatable.

And I'm sure if I read more of this thread, I'd be able to give more reasons and in more detail. For now, though, I'll leave you with those gems ;)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 05-11-2009, 03:13 PM
-Smoo-'s Avatar
-Smoo- Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hit ALT and F4 to find out!
Posts: 1,081
Send a message via MSN to -Smoo-
Default Re: Is EV and IV training Ruining The Fun Of Pokemon?

Can't you just Pokesav? If you can't EV training doesn't take that long. As for IV breeding I make sure my IVs are OK but won't spend hours breeding them for good ones.

EV training and IV breeding just adds a new perspective to the game wich can (and probably is :p) be more fun than fighting boring CPUs.
__________________
^Credit to whoever made this.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Style Design: AlienSector.com