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  #16  
Old 03-28-2009, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

So you have a line with him hating one person?

How does that show he doesn't love those that do not worship him?
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  #17  
Old 03-28-2009, 01:35 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Lucario View Post
I already did. Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. Would you like more?

@Cipher: I love the tone of that post. It's as if you had a time machine and could go back in time to find out if the stories in the Bible are true or not.
I think Ranma summed it up pretty well, give me an example of Him not loving everyone who doesn't believe in him. As for Cipher, he made no direct assertions, he stated his belief. Note the key words in his post, "I think".
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  #18  
Old 03-28-2009, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
I think Ranma summed it up pretty well, give me an example of Him not loving everyone who doesn't believe in him. As for Cipher, he made no direct assertions, he stated his belief. Note the key words in his post, "I think".
I already have. You're just stubborn. I'm not going to tell God, who is sovereign in everything He does, that He has to love everyone. He will love whomever He pleases.
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  #19  
Old 03-28-2009, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Lord Lucario View Post
I already have. You're just stubborn. I'm not going to tell God, who is sovereign in everything He does, that He has to love everyone. He will love whomever He pleases.
I'm not saying he has to though, Wunsch, I'm saying that he should, because we are all his children. He doesn't have to listen to me, I'm not giving him the command to do something, I'm saying that he should. There's a difference. And we're saying, give us an example of him not loving everyone who doesn't follow him, not just one person.

Edit: Oh, and aside from that *smirks* how do you know the Bible conveys God's will? How do you know for a fact that the Bible speaks the true word of God, and not just stuff a bunch of people wrote down, believing it to be the words from God's proverbial mouth?
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  #20  
Old 03-28-2009, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Edit: Oh, and aside from that *smirks* how do you know the Bible conveys God's will? How do you know for a fact that the Bible speaks the true word of God, and not just stuff a bunch of people wrote down, believing it to be the words from God's proverbial mouth?
I think that statement sums up everything I believe in about religion. Carry on making Wunsch look like a fool, Nate.


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  #21  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Lol @ Lonsie, pseudo-intellectuals are funny.

I'm not one to argue with prepubescents, so I'm done with this thread. Goodbye.

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  #22  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Lord Lucario View Post
Lol @ Lonsie, pseudo-intellectuals are funny.

I'm not one to argue with prepubescents, so I'm done with this thread. Goodbye.
Oh, what a surprise. Wunsch sees an argument he can't win and bails. I'm so shocked. [/sarcasm]
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  #23  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
I'm not saying he has to though, Wunsch, I'm saying that he should, because we are all his children. He doesn't have to listen to me, I'm not giving him the command to do something, I'm saying that he should. There's a difference. And we're saying, give us an example of him not loving everyone who doesn't follow him, not just one person.

Edit: Oh, and aside from that *smirks* how do you know the Bible conveys God's will? How do you know for a fact that the Bible speaks the true word of God, and not just stuff a bunch of people wrote down, believing it to be the words from God's proverbial mouth?
Actually...Nate, the New Testament's gospels are exactly that. They're kind of misnomers, they weren't raelly even written by Matthew and John and whoever else there is [/JEW]. They were written years and years after they died, the longest gap between death and publication being about 160 years. It's not really even known if it's true about everything in there.

Also, those are only like four gospels in the Bible. When whoever made the Bible took the gospels he took, it was very political. There were over 30 gospels, and he simply picked the ones liked to read best.

So, basically the writing of the Bible was like the writing of a fiction novel (I'm not saying it is a fiction novel, just in the context that the author writes what the reader wants to read)

EDIT: and the Old Testament was supposedly dictated by God to Moses or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Lucario View Post
Lol @ Lonsie, pseudo-intellectuals are funny.

I'm not one to argue with prepubescents, so I'm done with this thread. Goodbye.
Good riddance >>
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  #24  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
First of all, just because God has no form doesn't mean you have to believe he exists to go to heaven. I don't see how the two are connected. Secondly, I don't believe that, period. I don't buy for a second that if there is a God, that he would send you to the pit or even limbo just for not believing in or worshiping him. Why would he do that, when he supposedly loves us all. What purpose, "mysterious ways" or not, would he have for banishing us to the pit just for not believing in him?
Uh, yeah, you do.

Quote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I don't believe you have to go to church, but through regular prayer and belief (walking the walk, as I said), you will be saved.

Somewhere in the Bible is the following quote;

Quote:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
MEANING:

Quote:
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE."
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  #25  
Old 03-31-2009, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Requiem of Verities View Post
I don't believe you have to go to church, but through regular prayer and belief (walking the walk, as I said), you will be saved.


Yes, but that could be interpreted in a number of ways. I mean, the word "he" could be referencing God, in which case you're right, or it could be referencing Jesus, in which case you're wrong, because it is a fact that Jesus of Nazareth was a living person who may or may not have been the son of God.

Quote:
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE."
[/QUOTE]

In other words, whether I get accepted into Heaven should not be based on whether I believe in God but rather whether I am a good person or not? Because that's what that sounds like. Because I totally walk the walk, and therefore have no need to talk the talk, ergo I'm getting into heaven in all my non-religious glory.

And again, you're basing this all entirely on the belief that the Bible is true. I don't dispute your belief, I just want you to stop trying to get me to accept that belief as my own, as that implies that you're right and I'm wrong, which in turn implies that your belief is fact.
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  #26  
Old 03-31-2009, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
First point, I'm not talking about all religious people. I'm simply referring to those who fall under this category, and the question I pose is to them and them alone.

I have no issues with religion, but there is one thing that bugs me, above all else. The idea of knowledge over faith. I don't mean as in generally, either, I'm referring to a personal level, where an individual doesn't only believe in a religious faith, but is so utterly convinced that they act and talk as if they know for a fact that their religion is true. And, as a matter of fact, some do indeed claim that their religion is fact.

My response and question to all of those people is thus: How do you know? As an agnostic, I ask that question of people a lot, but always silently or without expecting an answer. Now I do. I'm asking everyone who is convinced that it is a fact that their religion is true, not just believing it but thinking they actually know, how do you know?

Third time, just to make sure I get the message completely across, I'm not talking to people who simply believe in religion, I'm speaking directly to those who act like they know it for a fact.
I'm an agnostic-leaning-atheist and I'd love to know the answer to this as well.

Also, Wunsch, I don't know exactly what you are, but you are definitely not a Christian. However, since you've already made a wonderful ass of yourself by bailing on the thread with a random insult, I don't think I need to help any further.
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EDIT: Point duly noted, Kenny. Since I'd like to redeem myself from being warned, here's a real argument.

Wunsch, the line you brought up was from the Old Testament, first and foremost; that part of the Christian Bible is FULL of things like that. Also, that's one line, as opposed to an entire New Testament full of Jesus preaching love and forgiveness. If God hates everyone but Christians, why did Jesus preach to accept the Jews of his time as neighbors and love them despite their religion?
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  #27  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Lord Lucario View Post
I already have. You're just stubborn. I'm not going to tell God, who is sovereign in everything He does, that He has to love everyone. He will love whomever He pleases.
Oh, the irony.

It burns.

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  #28  
Old 04-03-2009, 02:41 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

According to C.S. Lewis( And this is a little beside the poster's first question). most of the "Facts" we say are true is based on faith. For instance. I've never been to Europe, or Paris. But I still believe that it exists. Why? Because people tell me so. NOT because I saw it on TV alone. I mean, just about anything I see on TV could be staged. The news. Sports. Reality TV shows. The only reason I consider such things, like the existence of Europe or Paris is because I have faith in the people who tell me (Like the anchor men and women.)

Are you picking up what I'm puting down?
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2009, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
According to C.S. Lewis( And this is a little beside the poster's first question). most of the "Facts" we say are true is based on faith. For instance. I've never been to Europe, or Paris. But I still believe that it exists. Why? Because people tell me so. NOT because I saw it on TV alone. I mean, just about anything I see on TV could be staged. The news. Sports. Reality TV shows. The only reason I consider such things, like the existence of Europe or Paris is because I have faith in the people who tell me (Like the anchor men and women.)

Are you picking up what I'm putting down?
Eh. My definition of faith is different from yours. Faith to me is believing fully in something without complete proof that it really is, at least in religious context. The difference between faith in God and faith that Paris exists is that Paris is backed up by thousands of documents spanning hundreds of years, many personal accounts of Paris, and, well, I've been there, so I know it exists. With religious faith, however, you trust your inner judgment (or in some cases the fact that the majority of the world is religious) rather than verified documents and accounts and the like.

Of course, all the above is just IMO, and the argument really varies depending on what your exact definition of faith is.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2009, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: The Difference Between Faith and Knowledge

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Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
According to C.S. Lewis( And this is a little beside the poster's first question). most of the "Facts" we say are true is based on faith. For instance. I've never been to Europe, or Paris. But I still believe that it exists. Why? Because people tell me so. NOT because I saw it on TV alone. I mean, just about anything I see on TV could be staged. The news. Sports. Reality TV shows. The only reason I consider such things, like the existence of Europe or Paris is because I have faith in the people who tell me (Like the anchor men and women.)

Are you picking up what I'm puting down?
When I refer to knowledge and fact, I talk about things that can be proven. I've never been to Paris either, so I don't have any reason to believe it exists. But, it can be proven to me that it exists, if in no other way than that you can take me there and then I'll have no choice but to believe you. But you can't take me to Narnia, you can't show me a real dragon, and you can't take me to heaven and introduce me to God. When anyone can do any of those things for me, then I will admit that those things are knowable facts.
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