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  #31  
Old 03-22-2009, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
The bailout gives money to the corporations such as the automotive industry like Ford and banks. What you said here is doesn't follow from what I just said.

The second thing is that the lower class are the people that work the hardest. Period. If you don't believe me, go to your local library and pick up Jone's Minimal: Low-wage Labor in the United States by David Griffith or even Contingent Work, Disrupted Lives by Anthony Winson and Belinda Leach. The former shows the exploitation of the lower class by industries to keep the industries' costs down. The latter documents how people who are in the middle class that fell into the lower class sector because of globalization. The easiest conclusion to be made here is VERY simple: "The less you make, the harder you work" (Winson and Leach 2002:140).

The third is that wealth redistribution is not a bad thing. Take any third world country and show me how the lack of wealth redistribution helped the people come out of abject poverty. Take any skid row in any country and show me how the lack of wealth redistribution has helped them get out of abject poverty. What you are saying is a justification to continue exploitation of people already in poverty by linking wealth redistribution, even a tiny amount, to socialism, which is a different idea altogether, because it is a much larger expanse of ideas.

I don't agree in particular with socialism, but it is clear that there are ideas within socialism that is worth exploring. Widening the gap between the rich and the poor is not the solution. By the way, my guess is that you don't like taxation of any sort then, considering that taxation is one form of wealth redistribution.



It's no strings attached for the corporations, silly.



The government is responsible for your education, including college. The United States made college expensive instead of free specifically because it runs on a debt economy, so their people need a source of debt, whether it is from higher education or from a lack of education. It's stupid to think that going to college is not education, and it's stupid to think that the United States and Canada can't do what the European Unions have been doing for decades. So yes, it did apply a system of rules in this case, just one that makes sure that you will be in debt no matter what you do.

In any case, the government's role in a country goes far beyond just applying systems of rules and granting rights to people, but that's again beyond the scope of this debate.

It is not the government's responsibility for the people to get jobs or owning a house, this much I agree on. However, this has also nothing to do with wealth redistribution.
The lower class doesn't work the hardest. Why do you think they became the lower class? It's just that the middle and upper classes start working hard earlier in life, through school and early life. I'm not going to pay someone's mortgage because they didn't set priorities and goals for themselves. Yes, wealth redistribution lowers poverty rates, but that statement was totally one-dimensional-the middle and upper classes unfairly lost money in that process. I do donate to charities, but the government should not be a charity. They've got better issues to deal with right now. How about getting the economy back on track rather than just handing out money?

No strings attached? That's the problem: there needs to be a string attached. Otherwise, the people are being forced to pay this money back rather than the corporations who should be paying them back.

College is post-secondary and optional education, so I feel that the government should not be responsible for it. The only reason college tuition is so high is because the government felt everybody should be able to go to college-and invented guaranteed student loans. Immediately after that, tuition almost doubled.

I think that this stimulus money should be cut to about 10% of what it is now, and only be spent towards alternative energy and new technologies. That should create plenty of jobs, generate money, and hopefully end the recession.
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  #32  
Old 03-22-2009, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
The lower class doesn't work the hardest. Why do you think they became the lower class?
Easy: They are almost always simply born into it. Those that are in the lower class are then oppressed to remain in the lower class. There's a reason why "rags-to-riches" movies exist. It's because this happens extremely rarely. The American class system doesn't make it possible for those oppressed to have a voice, so those that are in the middle-class like you would never hear from them. No voice = no soul = you can think whatever you want about them to feel better about yourself.

Besides that point, haven't you heard of those in the lower class holding three jobs just to make ends meet? So holding three different jobs is not working as hard the average middle-class person, who works a single 40-hour job? Maybe you should go try it just in case I'm wrong. Work over 100 hours a week versus working 40 hours a week, and then come back and show me how the former is "working less hard" than the latter.

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Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
It's just that the middle and upper classes start working hard earlier in life, through school and early life.
And those that couldn't go to school because they wouldn't have money to pay for food? Have you considered that some people just have to work hard not because of school, but because it's a matter of life or death? Who are we to judge those that are less privileged that us? Are you saying that you can successfully complete high school under the circumstance where you would have trouble getting enough food?

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Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
I'm not going to pay someone's mortgage because they didn't set priorities and goals for themselves.
Someone's mortgage? Don't you mean someone's foreclosure? Besides that point, it's the mortgage companies' own fault for lending to those who couldn't possibly pay back in the first place, isn't it? If you're a homeless guy and I offer you a loan to own a house, wouldn't you take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
Yes, wealth redistribution lowers poverty rates, but that statement was totally one-dimensional-the middle and upper classes unfairly lost money in that process.
You have made a number of intrinsic assumptions (which are unfortunately hegemonic in nature):
1. Accumulation of wealth is the only meaningful measure of self worth in society.
2. People should only strive for this one measure.
3. Government should not be interfering with this single meaningful measure of society.
4. Fairness is derived from attaining the maximum of possible of accumulation of wealth.
5. Power is derived from this only measure of self worth.
6. Taken all of this together, the conclusion here is that wealth redistribution weakens statement number 4, and therefore weakens statement number 1.

What if statement number one changes to this: "generous giving of wealth is the only meaningful measure of self worth in society" (examples are found in indigenous populations in potlashs, and a number of African societies as well, with stuff like the hxaro)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
I do donate to charities, but the government should not be a charity.
Charity =/= wealth redistribution
Charity is under the circumstance where one gives to another, yes. The difference here is that charities deal with power structures between the two players, while the other deals with equaling power difference between people. It may feel the same to you, but it is very much different in nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
They've got better issues to deal with right now. How about getting the economy back on track rather than just handing out money?
The current situation of the economy is simply a symptom of the problem. If the government is that concerned about it, they should deal with the flaws of capitalism itself, not just pump money into bailouts like the AIG bailout.

You may already know about the bailout scandal in that sense, considering that AIG used 10% of the bailout money to give bonuses to the executives. So in essence, the government is benefiting the upper-class while screwing over the middle-class by doing so. Honestly I don't understand how awarding corporations for stupidity is any way of dealing with the economy either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
No strings attached? That's the problem: there needs to be a string attached. Otherwise, the people are being forced to pay this money back rather than the corporations who should be paying them back.
You do realize you've contradicted yourself in this statement in comparison to your previous responses, don't you? Oh, and see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
College is post-secondary and optional education, so I feel that the government should not be responsible for it. The only reason college tuition is so high is because the government felt everybody should be able to go to college-and invented guaranteed student loans. Immediately after that, tuition almost doubled.
By inventing the guaranteed student loans, they can reduce funding to the universities. After that, tuition almost doubled so the universities can cover their costs, putting the burden of education from the government to creating the debt culture the students have. The move is so ingenious that even most people, like you, feel it's something natural, something hegemonic. You have a correlation there, but it's only that there is a confounding factor. ;)

The truth is that there can be government mandates to keep tuition fees low. Canadians enjoyed a fairly low amount of debt up until recently because the government has a scaling loan system (the higher the earnings of the family of the student/student themselves, the lower the loans) AND has the tuition freeze. When the government decided to drop the freeze on tuition, the prices of tuition dramatically increased. Say what you will, but it's simply the creation of debt culture of the middle-class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buizel410 View Post
I think that this stimulus money should be cut to about 10% of what it is now, and only be spent towards alternative energy and new technologies. That should create plenty of jobs, generate money, and hopefully end the recession.
High-tech is not the solution we've hoped for, from what we know in the past 10 years. Secondly, increased technological efficiencies, while a good thing, does lead to a lowered working population since the machines take over for their jobs.

Your proposal is flawed in several ways. The first is that you assumed research works. That's simply a lack of understanding of research, though. Research itself is a very slow process, and that perfecting efficiency in alternative energy, even with increased funding, would still take a long time. One issue is simply that there would be a lack of personnel to actually take advantage of the increased resource until at least 2-3 years from now. This process is too slow as a solution for "ending the recession" any time soon. I do have to note that it's not a bad thing, though, since it can lead to prosperity when complete. Can is the operative, since even that isn't guaranteed.

The second flaw is that investing in high technology and research will make more jobs. The answer outside of the fact that machines makes less people working is the factor of "creeping credentialism." That is, investment into high technology and research inherently requires highly trained personnel, which almost all of the middle-class would not have access to. As an example, maintenance of a robot in a factory would obviously require years of training just to understand all of the workings of that robot to maintain it, that that's coming from an engineer (again, this is a professional). High technology and research both have these intrinsic barriers to most of the labour market that it would not create jobs for the common people as you would hope for.

A third flaw in the argument you have here is that research and high technology can generate money. Research doesn't generate money, it just sucks money away until hopefully something useful comes along that can help generate money. High technology, like basically every other manufacturing district, needs a market. No market, no money generation. Recessions tend to mean a lack of markets all around, including the high technology sector. Oversupply of goods from the high technology sector does not guarantee a way of generating money either.
  #33  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by Snow Fairy Sugar View Post

It'll be fun to shoot your arguments down and stuff it in my living room. =]

First of all my dear kid, yes, I do have a job in Bank of America. Part time, I work under my father but nonetheless.

Secondly, you're just shooting off your mouth, just trying to claw at random things, and trying to look smart. Read: Keynesian Economics and come back when you do.

Wikipedia explains it very easily. Or if that's too long, here's the important points.

Keynes argued that the solution to depression was to stimulate the economy ("inducement to invest") through some combination of two approaches: a reduction in interest rates, and government investment in infrastructure. Investment by government injects income, which results in more spending in the general economy, which in turn stimulates more production and investment involving still more income and spending and so forth. The initial stimulation starts a cascade of events, whose total increase in economic activity is a multiple of the original investment.

He argued that governments should solve problems in the short run rather than waiting for market forces (Here, the people/population) to do it in the long run, because "in the long run, we are all dead."


Just wondered...do you call saving as bad, and would not have any saving accounts in your bank if/when you grow up and become an adult, Shadow Tracker? Are you going to spend all of the money you earn?

Nothing would be more pleasing to me than to lie to you and see you happy, but as much as it pains me to tell you- this idea of yours is kind of wrong. What the Bush administration was doing were bailouts. Obama's adiminstration mostly focused on stimulus for the economy, and his administration drafted the stimulus package(s), which the house and Senate approved. Yes, I've been tracking the bill right to the finish. This was one of the bills the House/Senate did not draft.
I agree to government investment in public infrastructure to temporary curb unemployment.

Every other type of spending stimulus is really lame... people have the right to life, but not the right to more spending power then they're worth.
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  #34  
Old 12-27-2009, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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do you ever have a clue as to what your talking about or do you just like spouting garbage. how can you expect anyone to take your "translation". Do you have a job, do you live on your own. Do you do anything at all to give back the country other site around like one of those youtube people with your bloggs talking about how everything is bad.

First off, IF you have a job, 10 dollars a week adds up to 520 bucks which can cover a portion of rent if not all for the average lower middle class apartment renters. So thank you mister president, for doing that.

Also in the real world 3.5 million jobs is alot of people that can either keep there job and or start working again. This keeps families alive, people having to sell everythign and work off of the little amount they get for not having job.

Last, but really not least ....your saying spending is wrong....do you know how this country works? or are you from somewhere else....because if you are then i would understand how you dont have a clue as the importance of money being circualted....people shouldnt have saved the money from last year. In your eyes you think its support some big firm or company but those companies are the ones that are employing everyone. Its a direct connection....

This statement is giving credit to the Obama Administration? What the hell!? Really son, do YOU work at all!? I have worked for 2 years and I already see that Obama is a piece of work. He wasn't even a U.S citizen when he started to run!

520 bucks is not going to add up to the amount of debt people have. The problem is credit cards. They give you money you can spend when you don't have enough. Then these people are like, "What? You mean I have to pay it back?"

The problem is that the Obama Admin. doesn't know what they are doing. Plus! Where do you think he is getting the money from? Taxes! And who do you think pays the taxes? The people who are getting the money! Seriously, some people are so blind.

Also, saving money is the smart thing to do because they HAVE to. They will lose even more! I almost got let go because of the "economic crises". You know, because we have Obama as a president China will become the main power house of a country. Though that is a bad thing, I am hoping for it. Why? Because it will give us competition. Something that Obama and the rest of the socialists (Socialism is like Communism at a lower level) don't understand. This country hasn't had competition since the 80s (Japan). Now days we have not reason to innovate.

Why am I so against the Obama Admin? Because I see what is coming! He is a socialist and Germany is socialist (which I live in). Life is oppressive here...
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2009, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
This statement is giving credit to the Obama Administration? What the hell!? Really son, do YOU work at all!? I have worked for 2 years and I already see that Obama is a piece of work. He wasn't even a U.S citizen when he started to run!

520 bucks is not going to add up to the amount of debt people have. The problem is credit cards. They give you money you can spend when you don't have enough. Then these people are like, "What? You mean I have to pay it back?"

The problem is that the Obama Admin. doesn't know what they are doing. Plus! Where do you think he is getting the money from? Taxes! And who do you think pays the taxes? The people who are getting the money! Seriously, some people are so blind.

Also, saving money is the smart thing to do because they HAVE to. They will lose even more! I almost got let go because of the "economic crises". You know, because we have Obama as a president China will become the main power house of a country. Though that is a bad thing, I am hoping for it. Why? Because it will give us competition. Something that Obama and the rest of the socialists (Socialism is like Communism at a lower level) don't understand. This country hasn't had competition since the 80s (Japan). Now days we have not reason to innovate.

Why am I so against the Obama Admin? Because I see what is coming! He is a socialist and Germany is socialist (which I live in). Life is oppressive here...
Seriously, where do you learn this stuff? Obama wasn't an American citizen when he started to run? The problem with the economy is credit cards? And why are you using "us" when you live in Germany?
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2009, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Seriously, where do you learn this stuff? Obama wasn't an American citizen when he started to run? The problem with the economy is credit cards? And why are you using "us" when you live in Germany?
Uh, Lus. *pokes timestamp on Kenny's last post, which was seven months before the poster above that guy*
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  #37  
Old 12-29-2009, 10:50 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Seriously, where do you learn this stuff? Obama wasn't an American citizen when he started to run? The problem with the economy is credit cards? And why are you using "us" when you live in Germany?
I am an American you mislead person. "U.S" Kaiserslautern! How else do you think I speak English?

I learned that stuff because I lived in Hawaii at the time of his election and he had to go there to get himself registered. Plus, Credit Cards give people the money they don't have. People started to buy stuff they couldn't afford. Houses and cars are the main thing. When they couldn't pay the credit card company their credit went down and they couldn't do anything like buy a cheaper house or car. They lost their jobs because the economy was effected by the debt increase. Soon banks started to loan money and look where it got us!
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  #38  
Old 12-29-2009, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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I am an American you mislead person. "U.S" Kaiserslautern! How else do you think I speak English?

I learned that stuff because I lived in Hawaii at the time of his election and he had to go there to get himself registered. Plus, Credit Cards give people the money they don't have. People started to buy stuff they couldn't afford. Houses and cars are the main thing. When they couldn't pay the credit card company their credit went down and they couldn't do anything like buy a cheaper house or car. They lost their jobs because the economy was effected by the debt increase. Soon banks started to loan money and look where it got us!
Uh... as I recall he went down to Hawaii to get his birth certificate proving that he had been born an American citizen.

The issue is not down to credit cards, it's down to the loans. The issue is not that people had bad credit, it's that people were given loans *in spite of* bad credit, loans that they could not pay back. Because of that the banks that gave the loans lost a lot of money. That money belongs to other people. Therefore, those people lost money. The idea of fueling the banks by bailing them out and by giving people small amounts of money, a lot of which will then go safely in the bank, is to ensure that the banks can deal out loans that aren't so toxic. They get paid back, plus the interest, which then stabilizes them and allows them to start making money again.

Meanwhile, the people who don't save their money are meant to stimulate the economy on the small business level, by spending it on small businesses. The accusation earlier that it was meant to stimulate Wall Street is false. Had it been in large amounts I would agree, but such little money would see use on Main Street.

Also, I lol'd at your accusation that Obama is a socialist. My mother is a socialist. Several of my friends are socialists. There's an entire socialist party. All of them (the latter through the leader of the socialist party in the US) have specifically stated that he's not a socialist. He's much more moderate than he's painted to be, but the combination of the shift of this country's strong voices towards the far right (read: Fox News) and the fact that he's a very dynamic liberal figure in an extremely polar political environment give the impression that he's much more left wing than he really is.

And this is all irrelevant since this thread had been dead for seven months before being revived and was already just about dead again when you posted, so I'm going to report it now. I'd report it but I think it'd be easier on all of us if we just waited for Lus to see what we posted and lock it himself.
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  #39  
Old 12-29-2009, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
This statement is giving credit to the Obama Administration? What the hell!? Really son, do YOU work at all!? I have worked for 2 years and I already see that Obama is a piece of work. He wasn't even a U.S citizen when he started to run!

520 bucks is not going to add up to the amount of debt people have. The problem is credit cards. They give you money you can spend when you don't have enough. Then these people are like, "What? You mean I have to pay it back?"

The problem is that the Obama Admin. doesn't know what they are doing. Plus! Where do you think he is getting the money from? Taxes! And who do you think pays the taxes? The people who are getting the money! Seriously, some people are so blind.

Also, saving money is the smart thing to do because they HAVE to. They will lose even more! I almost got let go because of the "economic crises". You know, because we have Obama as a president China will become the main power house of a country. Though that is a bad thing, I am hoping for it. Why? Because it will give us competition. Something that Obama and the rest of the socialists (Socialism is like Communism at a lower level) don't understand. This country hasn't had competition since the 80s (Japan). Now days we have not reason to innovate.

Why am I so against the Obama Admin? Because I see what is coming! He is a socialist and Germany is socialist (which I live in). Life is oppressive here...
You are now my favorite troll. You have to be trollin'.
  #40  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:47 AM
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Old 01-01-2010, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

I'm not a fan of Barack Obama myself, but that whole birth certificate and the "He's a Kenyan" and a "Muslim" thing has been played out for too long and is becoming stale.

As for the people born to the lower class who don't work the hardest. There are degrees of laziness with each individual. You can't just group all the people together.

There are people who are poor because they were layed off, because they were born poor (and there are plenty of social stigmas against the lower class) and in case you haven't noticed. The American Middle Class is shrinking because of a multitude of factors. Many of our manufacturing jobs have been off-shored, factories close down and the whole "green" enviromentalist movement isn't making anything better placing such expensive regulations on manufacturing plants and factories...causing them to close down and set up shop in places like China, Vietnam, India and Central America.

Also, a dirty little secret is out that our Auto-Industries have been opening up plants (and they remain open) across the border into Canada because....they don't have an obligation to pay workers for their health insurance.

Although in China, it's much harder for a poorer people, particularly those that live in the rural parts. There is a huge disparity of income and education between the urban and rural citizens of the PRC.
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  #42  
Old 01-03-2010, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by Harry98 View Post
I'm not a fan of Barack Obama myself, but that whole birth certificate and the "He's a Kenyan" and a "Muslim" thing has been played out for too long and is becoming stale.

As for the people born to the lower class who don't work the hardest. There are degrees of laziness with each individual. You can't just group all the people together.

There are people who are poor because they were layed off, because they were born poor (and there are plenty of social stigmas against the lower class) and in case you haven't noticed. The American Middle Class is shrinking because of a multitude of factors. Many of our manufacturing jobs have been off-shored, factories close down and the whole "green" enviromentalist movement isn't making anything better placing such expensive regulations on manufacturing plants and factories...causing them to close down and set up shop in places like China, Vietnam, India and Central America.

Also, a dirty little secret is out that our Auto-Industries have been opening up plants (and they remain open) across the border into Canada because....they don't have an obligation to pay workers for their health insurance.

Although in China, it's much harder for a poorer people, particularly those that live in the rural parts. There is a huge disparity of income and education between the urban and rural citizens of the PRC.


I don't care about the auto industries making their factories along the Canadian border. The Canadians need the job because Canada is SOCIALIST. However, the green thing is bull. Green environmentalism isn't about the environment, it is about controlling lives. The Government wants the middle class to get out.

The middle class, believe it or not, has more say in Political matters. They want everyone who is Capitalist poor because they have the know-how to get things done and most rich people have no brains. This will let the President get whatever he wants, ultimately ending our democracy and starting a dictatorship...


(I AM TRYING TO BE FUNNY AND NOT SERIOUS ABOUT THE DICTATORSHIP)
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Old 01-03-2010, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
I don't care about the auto industries making their factories along the Canadian border. The Canadians need the job because Canada is SOCIALIST. However, the green thing is bull. Green environmentalism isn't about the environment, it is about controlling lives. The Government wants the middle class to get out.

The middle class, believe it or not, has more say in Political matters. They want everyone who is Capitalist poor because they have the know-how to get things done and most rich people have no brains. This will let the President get whatever he wants, ultimately ending our democracy and starting a dictatorship...


(I AM TRYING TO BE FUNNY AND NOT SERIOUS ABOUT THE DICTATORSHIP)
You're not funny troll, stop trying to be. You're the kind of troll that does not amuse, only annoys.

I wasn't aware that my personal environmental policies were about controlling lives. I thought it was about improving general health, preserving the beauty of nature which you, as an apparently devout Christian, should appreciate all the more, and ensuring that, juuuuust in case that whole global warming thing is true, we don't end up drowning in a couple of years. My mistake.

And yeah, we do have a large say in political matters because we outnumber the rich by a large proportion and the lower class by a great deal smaller, but still existent and obvious proportion. We are the largest group and we have the biggest say. That's called democracy. And stop generalizing us, we aren't all anti-capitalist. Just me ;)
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  #44  
Old 07-20-2011, 09:27 PM
Guillo1 Offline
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

Well, I wasn't expecting to find interesting political conversation while looking for pokemon stuff, but here I am!
I'm sorry if this is starting with the wrong foot, but some of the notions of socialism discussed up there are blatantly wrong. Socialism, among other things, is about property structure, specifically about social ownership of a community/society/nation's means of production. The State's structure, attributes and dynamic as a social controller derive from that property structure. The concept of the State infusing money into the demand side of the market, be it by lowering interest rates or providing bailouts (aimed at the "productive" segments of the market), or by distributing money via social plans and increasing government funded welfare (allowing consumers to divert money from basic needs into spending) are anything BUT socialist. These initiatives stem from the post-war realization that the State in capitalist countries needs to take action during the crisis part of the economic cycle in order to reduce it's impact. They are aimed at leveling out the ups and down of normal evolution of capitalist economics, therefore safekeeping the capitalist system. Remember that the Welfare state was mostly developed during the height of the anti-communist era in the western world, and therefore can hardly be dubbed as socialist.

Just my 2 (or 10) cents. The freedom with which the word "socialist" is thrown around in this country really irks me, I'm sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes. Not my intention, and this was not meant to be an argument pro or against the bailout. Just a concept clarification.

Now, off to discuss Pokemon!
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  #45  
Old 07-20-2011, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Obama's Stimulus Package: Direct Translation

Thread is from last year; please don't post in threads that have been dead for over a month.
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