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  #16  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
Jesus rejected quite a number of Jewish stuffs, so he on his own actually sort of constitutes another religion altogether.

And Christians have reason to hate on the Jews because the Jews hated on Jesus and crucified him + disciples.
Yeah, but him dying like that is a major factor in the religion itself.

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Actually.....there was a ppl who referred to him as Christ...but that's a different story.

Christ means messiah in one of those middle east languages.

So technically they did believe in Christ.

they just didn't believe he came to earth as a babe.
He was calling himself the son of God, many of the Jewish people weren't. Those who were, were the Christians and disciples. Believing that Jesus was the Messiah is what makes someone a Christian. Believing he isn't, but in traditional Jewish beliefs, makes someone Jewish. There are people of the Jewish race who are Christians, but Jews aren't Christians. There belief system operates on some of the same principles, like their God is the same person, but the Jews don't believe the Messiah has shown up yet.
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  #17  
Old 01-17-2009, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

Actually techically it's the other way around Christianity came from judisim.
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  #18  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Malomyotismon View Post
Actually techically it's the other way around Christianity came from judisim.
From a neutral point of view that is the case, but according to Jesus the Jews perverted what his Father wanted, so his is the true way, which basically means that his way is the correct path from the Old Testament and therefore Judaism stemmed from Christianity.
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  #19  
Old 01-18-2009, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
Jesus rejected quite a number of Jewish stuffs, so he on his own actually sort of constitutes another religion altogether.
Well that bit is obvious, hence why Christians aren't kosher and apparently it's okay to shove your religion down people's throats.

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And Christians have reason to hate on the Jews because the Jews hated on Jesus and crucified him + disciples.
Um... I may be wrong on this, but I don't actually think the disciples were crucified.

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Originally Posted by Draconic_Espeon View Post
[I believe that part of it stems from the fact that they all claimed that Jerusalem was the birthplace of their religion, and, rather than sharing it, they all wanted it for themselves. Also, by nature, humans distrust those who are different from them.
Now that bit, I get. And the Jews are the only ones right on that one. Christianity actually started becoming a legitimate religion to be taken seriously in the late Roman Empire, and Islam began in Mecca and Medina. I think what you're trying to say there is that they all want Jerusalem to themselves because it's the holy city (I personally would want it right now because it's the safest place in the world right now from nuclear attack. No Jew, Muslim or Christian is going to nuke anywhere in range of Jerusalem).

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And there's not just divisions between the separate monotheistic religions. Christians have fought a lot against other Christians. There have been a number of bloody conflicts just between Roman Catholics and Protestants.

Just my two cents. P=
Yeah, but that doesn't quite confuse me, same as with Sunni-Shi'a conflict. It's basically a scaled-up version of liberal vs. conservative, but more bloody because it involves religion.

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Originally Posted by Cybernetic Ghost View Post
Yeah, but him dying like that is a major factor in the religion itself.
Yeah, he was supposed to die anyway because that was what Jesus was allegedly sent down for, to "die for our sins" (seems kind of silly to me, but hey, that's martyrdom for you). But still, the fact that the Jews did it probably stung a bit. I guess it kind of goes without saying why Christians and Jews have issues, but my question is, what about Jews and Muslims? Or for that matter, Muslims and Christians. I mean, okay, crusades and all that, but that wasn't a holy war, that was a territorial war between two extremely large powers (the combined forces of Europe and the Caliphate Empire), each of which just happened to be comprised entirely of one religion or the other.

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He was calling himself the son of God, many of the Jewish people weren't.
Yeah, basic key problem there.

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Those who were, were the Christians and disciples. Believing that Jesus was the Messiah is what makes someone a Christian. Believing he isn't, but in traditional Jewish beliefs, makes someone Jewish. There are people of the Jewish race who are Christians, but Jews aren't Christians. There belief system operates on some of the same principles, like their God is the same person, but the Jews don't believe the Messiah has shown up yet.
Jewish laws also have a few key differences in them, but aside from that I really don't see any major differences between the two. This coming from someone who's never been to church in his life, of course, but from an objective standpoint, it seems relatively similar.

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Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
From a neutral point of view that is the case, but according to Jesus the Jews perverted what his Father wanted, so his is the true way, which basically means that his way is the correct path from the Old Testament and therefore Judaism stemmed from Christianity.
My question is, why would anyone presume to know what God wants? I'm convinced that as long as we're happy and don't hurt anyone in the process, he's fine with whatever we do.
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  #20  
Old 01-18-2009, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Malomyotismon View Post
Actually techically it's the other way around Christianity came from judisim.
I wasn't stating Christianity came first, I was already talking about Christianity, and just said Judaism and Christianity had the same origin I guess you could say. Judaism obviously came before Christianity.
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  #21  
Old 01-18-2009, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Well that bit is obvious, hence why Christians aren't kosher and apparently it's okay to shove your religion down people's throats.
When Christianity was in its absolute earliest days, there were two groups, if you will: those who believed that, since Christ fulfilled the law, they didn't need to follow all of the finer points anymore (i.e. the kosher laws), and those who believed that they should still follow the more rigid laws. I'm not entirely sure what happened to the latter, but the former is what modern Christians have followed.

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Um... I may be wrong on this, but I don't actually think the disciples were crucified.
Some of them were, and all of the original twelve (except John, I believe) were killed in some way.

Also, to clear up the post's original question, Christians actually are Jews. The term you're looking for is Messianic Jews. Basically, Christianity is a denomination of Judaism that believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and all of the theological points that stem from that belief. However, the two religions are so variegated that they are considered to be separate.

I also noticed something that was said earlier...

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Which they are. You know what I find hilarious about the monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) all disliking each other so much? Jesus and Muhammad were both, at some point, Jewish (Jesus's whole life and Muhammad before he took the role of the Prophet). Seriously, I don't get why Jews are so disliked by either of those groups when in reality if it weren't for Judaism neither would exist.
Muhammad was not Jewish. Jesus was born, and died, Jewish. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that last sentence, either. I certainly don't recall any type of animosity between Christians and Jews. As far as animosity between Muslims and Jews, I must again disagree. The only Muslims who actually want to spread hatred aren't Muslims at all - the Muslim religion is about peace, not war, no matter how many times you hear the word 'jihad' misinterpreted as meaning a "holy war."
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2009, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Nobodys_Nerd View Post
When Christianity was in its absolute earliest days, there were two groups, if you will: those who believed that, since Christ fulfilled the law, they didn't need to follow all of the finer points anymore (i.e. the kosher laws), and those who believed that they should still follow the more rigid laws. I'm not entirely sure what happened to the latter, but the former is what modern Christians have followed.
Ah. That makes sense then.

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Some of them were, and all of the original twelve (except John, I believe) were killed in some way.
Well thank you. That's one of the things I love about this section, I keep learning things about religion.

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Muhammad was not Jewish. Jesus was born, and died, Jewish. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that last sentence, either. I certainly don't recall any type of animosity between Christians and Jews. As far as animosity between Muslims and Jews, I must again disagree. The only Muslims who actually want to spread hatred aren't Muslims at all - the Muslim religion is about peace, not war, no matter how many times you hear the word 'jihad' misinterpreted as meaning a "holy war."
What I meant by the first bit was that Muhammad got the ideas and interest in monotheism from Jews. I probably just worded that terribly. And if I'm still wrong, blame my history teacher on that one.

And I'm referring to the past with Christianity v. Judaism. You know, the Roman Empire, Medieval and Renaissance Europe, Hitler, etc.

As for Islam, I know that. I'm referring to the fact that those nutters seem to think their doing it in the name of Islam, hence why most uber-patriots are currently anti-Islam.
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  #23  
Old 01-19-2009, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
What I meant by the first bit was that Muhammad got the ideas and interest in monotheism from Jews. I probably just worded that terribly. And if I'm still wrong, blame my history teacher on that one.
Actually, during his time as a merchant, Muhammad met people from many vastly different cultures, though Judaism was certainly one of them.

Quote:
And I'm referring to the past with Christianity v. Judaism. You know, the Roman Empire, Medieval and Renaissance Europe, Hitler, etc.

As for Islam, I know that. I'm referring to the fact that those nutters seem to think their doing it in the name of Islam, hence why most uber-patriots are currently anti-Islam.
As for the first part, I would agree somewhat, though it's still important to recognize that it still can't be generalized. As for the second, I would go even farther to say that the people who are really to blame don't think they're doing it in the name of Islam at all. They definitely have an agenda, and the people who actually do think that it is in the name of Islam are being "taken in," if you will.
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  #24  
Old 01-22-2009, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Nobodys_Nerd View Post
Actually, during his time as a merchant, Muhammad met people from many vastly different cultures, though Judaism was certainly one of them.



As for the first part, I would agree somewhat, though it's still important to recognize that it still can't be generalized. As for the second, I would go even farther to say that the people who are really to blame don't think they're doing it in the name of Islam at all. They definitely have an agenda, and the people who actually do think that it is in the name of Islam are being "taken in," if you will.
Peter was crucified upside-down. So were a couple of others IIRC.

And I thought Islam kinda split from Judaism/Christianity during the Old Testament. Probably before Egypt. Some guy apparently scuttled, and he ended up starting Islam.

There's a term for "jihad" in Islam, but it's not in the way that they use it now. "Jihad", in pretty loose terms because I can't remember the specifics, is basically allowing them to expand their territory in the case that they're running out of resources or something. It's less noble of an idea than the terrorists make it out to be, at least. The closest parallel for Christians to draw on is IIRC when Joshua and all the people of Israel were going around and owning people to get their Promised Land.
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  #25  
Old 01-22-2009, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
Peter was crucified upside-down. So were a couple of others IIRC.
This is true. The method of death varied among the apostles, but other than John, they were all killed.

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And I thought Islam kinda split from Judaism/Christianity during the Old Testament. Probably before Egypt. Some guy apparently scuttled, and he ended up starting Islam.

There's a term for "jihad" in Islam, but it's not in the way that they use it now. "Jihad", in pretty loose terms because I can't remember the specifics, is basically allowing them to expand their territory in the case that they're running out of resources or something. It's less noble of an idea than the terrorists make it out to be, at least. The closest parallel for Christians to draw on is IIRC when Joshua and all the people of Israel were going around and owning people to get their Promised Land.
Islam did not split from Judaism or Christianity. In fact, the Bible was completely finished by the time Islam started. Muhammad lived during the late sixth-early seventh centuries. He would often climb up on a mountain near his home (I forget the mountain's name) to meditate, and at some point, he believed that he had had a vision from God in which God dictated to him the Koran (I believe this happened more than once).

And that's not even close to what jihad means. Jihad is most literally translated as a "struggle," but not in the sense that you're thinking of. To explain it better, I also have to translate another word. You see, "Islam" comes from two words meaning "the peace that comes when one's will is submitted to Allah." "Jihad" refers to the inner struggle to submit one's will to Allah (and anyone who believes in one of the Revelatory religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, will tell you that it is certainly a struggle to do so sometimes).
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  #26  
Old 01-24-2009, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

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Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
And Christians have reason to hate on the Jews because the Jews hated on Jesus and crucified him + disciples.
So they claim. Jews defend themselves by saying that it wasn't their fault that Jesus was crucified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodys_Nerd View Post
When Christianity was in its absolute earliest days, there were two groups, if you will: those who believed that, since Christ fulfilled the law, they didn't need to follow all of the finer points anymore (i.e. the kosher laws), and those who believed that they should still follow the more rigid laws. I'm not entirely sure what happened to the latter, but the former is what modern Christians have followed.



Some of them were, and all of the original twelve (except John, I believe) were killed in some way.

Also, to clear up the post's original question, Christians actually are Jews. The term you're looking for is Messianic Jews. Basically, Christianity is a denomination of Judaism that believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and all of the theological points that stem from that belief. However, the two religions are so variegated that they are considered to be separate.

I also noticed something that was said earlier...



Muhammad was not Jewish. Jesus was born, and died, Jewish. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that last sentence, either. I certainly don't recall any type of animosity between Christians and Jews. As far as animosity between Muslims and Jews, I must again disagree. The only Muslims who actually want to spread hatred aren't Muslims at all - the Muslim religion is about peace, not war, no matter how many times you hear the word 'jihad' misinterpreted as meaning a "holy war."
Wow. Really?
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  #27  
Old 01-24-2009, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

I'd just like to make a point abou the New Testament. The four gospels are not the only four, and weren't written by the actual men. There were over 33 diferent gospels, and the selection of them didn't happen until long after they were all did, as did the making of the bible. The reason why the specific ones were chosen was beacause those were the ones most people liked to read.
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  #28  
Old 02-27-2009, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Are Jews christians?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Christianity was founded on Judaism. They use the same bible, but Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and Jews believe that the Messiah hasn't come yet. Although they are very similar, no, Jews are not Christians.
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