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  #511  
Old 04-07-2009, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
That's taking it a bit too far, though if you can find said proof, would you mind enlightening us all?



Sure, it can't be proved as an absolute, but given current scientific evidence, it is a perfectly plausible explanation. Though I'm Christian and believe in God, I also accept evolution, reconciling faith and science through the belief in intelligent design (that is, that God caused evolution). I also feel that evolution (and the creation of all of the earth), relies much too heavily on random events to have happened without any divine influence. However, I take evolution with a grain of salt, because it is also possible that new discoveries may be made in the future.

As for the cell thing... I'm not entirely sure what you're referencing.
I agree there was evolution but not the whole Primates--->Humans part. There are changes and mutations when cells divide but 99% of those mutations are bad. Just the odds of us developing, with minds and the ability to think and many other features, dont seem very possible to me.
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  #512  
Old 04-07-2009, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

If you create something, you cannot be within and outside the end result of what you create. For example, if you create a solid clay sculpture, it is physically impossible to be inside and outside of the sculpture while *you* are designing it. In order for there to be a creator of time, then whatever the creator is by nature, ex. God, cannot be within the restrictions of time. By existing outside of time and space as we know it, as He created it, he has the ability to create it and manipulate it at his will.

One common misconception with God and time is the argument that there is no way that everything that we can see had been only created in 7 days. However, the Hebrew word for day, yom, does not just apply to the human standard of 24 hours. It simply means a period of time. There is an astrophysicist, Hugh Ross, who has written several excellent books on his trial of every major religion in concordance to geological, astronomical, and physical evidence, and Christianity was his choice as the most historically accurate, not only for the past before the Bible, but even events that were written several hundreds of years after some of the books, like the books of the Prophets.


To sum it up, I personally am a Christian who actually works to see that science and religion are seen hand in hand as compliments. I think that to answer your question, God has always existed outside of our limitations of time in space, which is the only way which he could have made them to the point where he can exert so much control over our natural world.


Anyone who is reading this thread, feel free to pm me any time if you have other questions. I would love to answer them to the best of my ability.
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  #513  
Old 04-07-2009, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I'll tell you what. Give a link to a non-biased site that actually has valid points that refute the theory of evoluton and maybe then I'll start to take you seriously.
Non-Biased?
Why does it matter?
If the facts are true, then what does it matter from which side it came from?
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  #514  
Old 04-08-2009, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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The Law of Biogenisis
Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the law of biogenesis. The theory of evolution conflicts with this scientific law when claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.

I've never heard that evolution relies on life coming from nonliving matter. I'm pretty sure it deals more thoroughly with live things. And even if it is one part of the theory, just because that is wrong doesn't mean the entire concept is.

Acquired Characteristics
Acquired characteristics—characteristics gained after birth—cannot be inherited.a For example, large muscles acquired by a man in a weight-lifting program cannot be inherited by his child. Nor did giraffes get long necks because their ancestors stretched to reach high leaves. While almost all evolutionists agree that acquired characteristics cannot be inherited, many unconsciously slip into this false belief. On occasion, Darwin did

Actually, that was Lamarck's theory, and Darwin's beliefs are radically different. Darwin's theory of evolution was very contradictory to Lamarck's belief in acquired characteristics, and again doesn't at all rely on its truth.

Vestial Organs
Some structures in humans were once thought to have no function but to have been derived from functioning organs in claimed evolutionary ancestors.a They were called vestigial organs. As medical knowledge has increased, at least some function has been discovered for all alleged vestigial organs.b For example, the human appendix was once considered a useless remnant from our evolutionary past. The appendix seems to play a role in antibody production and protects part of the intestine from infections and tumor growths.c Indeed, the absence of true vestigial organs implies evolution never happened.

I'm not entirely sure why the absence of vestigial organs implies that evolution never happened. And actually, there is one example of a vestigial organ that humans retain in a much smaller, unfunctional (in many ways that its ancestors' are) manner: the tail. Personally, I've never seen a human with one, though most, if not all, other mammals have some form of them, which is one example of a trait lost somewhere in our evolutionary history.

Also, the appendix wouldn't necessarily have to be a vestigial organ in the way you implied. It could have been a trait gained through evolution, rather than one lost.


The First Cell
If, despite virtually impossible odds, proteins arose by chance processes, there is not the remotest reason to believe they could ever form a membrane-encased, self-reproducing, self-repairing, metabolizing, living cell.a There is no evidence that any stable states exist between the assumed formation of proteins and the formation of the first living cells. No scientist has ever demonstrated that this fantastic jump in complexity could have happened—even if the entire universe had been filled with proteins.b

This fits with point number one. Darwin's theory of evolution does not depend on the creation of life, it has to do with the way life developed after being created through whatever means.
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Originally Posted by spartan117 View Post
I agree there was evolution but not the whole Primates--->Humans part. There are changes and mutations when cells divide but 99% of those mutations are bad. Just the odds of us developing, with minds and the ability to think and many other features, dont seem very possible to me.
This was actually the gist of my post you quoted, though I know I have a notorious habit of using too many words. I believe God must have had some hand in evolution because the randomness doesn't seem possible without divine influence.
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  #515  
Old 04-08-2009, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
Responses in bold.
I have heard of one instance of a tail. A kid in India or something was born with one. He was worshipped as a god, but then they cut it off.
But that's beside the point.

And what about Micro and Macro Evolution?
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  #516  
Old 04-08-2009, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by spartan117 View Post
Theres proof to a certain extent but not enogh proof to show that the universe was created randomly out of nowhere and gases just "happen" to fuse together to make all the planets...and the whole cell theory. Cells are supposed to come from prexisting cells but supposedly the first cell was just made out of random proteins.
We're not talking about the Big Bang...we're talking about evolution. Evolution doesn't really prove or disprove the Big Bang theory, or that all the planets are created out of nothing.

If the first cell is your only problem, wouldn't it be a lot easier to say God made the first cell and set evolution into motion instead of discrediting all the other evidence?
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Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post

There's a whole lot more.
Honestly, I'm not very educated on the common ancestor, so I'm not going to make myself look like a moron and try and debate it. However...

First off, that site misses the point and a lot of it with the acquired traits thing. Evolution isn't acquired traits, it's DNA. A giraffe did not have a long neck due to stretching; its parent was born with a slightly longer neck than most and that accident happened to be beneficial. So the giraffe survived and passed on the wrong DNA that made the neck longer. Repeat process.

As for vestigal organs, that doesn't prove much for me. If anything, the fact that we evolved an organ that did that job for an already-existing organ is MORE proof of evolution. Also, what about the tailbone?

And as for the common ancestor thing, I don't know much about that, but that was billions of years ago. Evolution as a theory was only founded about 200 years ago. You can't honestly expect scientists to figure all this out instantly.
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Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
I have heard of one instance of a tail. A kid in India or something was born with one. He was worshipped as a god, but then they cut it off.
But that's beside the point.

And what about Micro and Macro Evolution?
Actually, I think that's far from besides the point. Being born with a tail or with fur on your face is reverse-evolution; that is, when the DNA backpedals instead of mutating further. And what animal do we know of that has for on its face and a tail? Yup - earlier primates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan117
I agree there was evolution but not the whole Primates--->Humans part. There are changes and mutations when cells divide but 99% of those mutations are bad. Just the odds of us developing, with minds and the ability to think and many other features, dont seem very possible to me.
Which is why it took 2 billion years or so to happen. Assuming one beneficial change every 100 years (which is probably rather generous), 2,000,000,000/100 = 20,000,000 changes. Twenty million is a lot, and a lot can happen.

Sorry some of the quotes are out of order btw, kind of in a rush...

Before I debate any further, though, I would like proof of creation instead of debunking of evolution. Because, to me, explaining the unknown with another vastly unknown being (God) is a lot worse than making some assumptions about evolution and ancestry.
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  #517  
Old 04-08-2009, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Before I debate any further, though, I would like proof of creation instead of debunking of evolution. Because, to me, explaining the unknown with another vastly unknown being (God) is a lot worse than making some assumptions about evolution and ancestry.
Okay then. As a christian, I do beleive in some higher being; because, lets face it, the chance of life existing is practically none and the chance that life could evolve into something like is pretty much impossible. Most scientists agree that the universe is infinite but there are a finite number of planets existing in the universe and even less of those will have life on them. So an infintes number divided by any finite number is practically zero, rendering the whole concept of life coming along by itself impossible

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  #518  
Old 04-08-2009, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Mewchirio View Post
Okay then. As a christian, I do beleive in some higher being; because, lets face it, the chance of life existing is practically none and the chance that life could evolve into something like is pretty much impossible.
There is such a thing as unknowingly ignorant and selectively ignorant. You fit in very nicely with the latter. As the other posters and I have stated above there is irrefutable evidence that evolution is true and did indeed occur. Because you believe it's impossible doesn't make it true.

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Most scientists agree that the universe is infinite but there are a finite number of planets existing in the universe and even less of those will have life on them.So an infintes number divided by any finite number is practically zero, rendering the whole concept of life coming along by itself impossible

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You underestimate the size of the universe. There are millions of planets in the Milky Way itself and there are billions of galaxies in the universe. New are being formed as we speak. The odds of having life somewhere else in the universe are much much higher than Earth being the only unique planet with life.
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  #519  
Old 04-08-2009, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
There is such a thing as unknowingly ignorant and selectively ignorant. You fit in very nicely with the latter. As the other posters and I have stated above there is irrefutable evidence that evolution is true and did indeed occur. Because you believe it's impossible doesn't make it true.
Well, I wouldn't say irrefutable. However, given the evidence we have at the present time, it is a very likely explanation. Remember, people hundreds of years ago thought they had proof that the world was flat, which we know to be wrong. I'm not saying evolution is wrong, I'm just saying that there should be a little openness to the fact that new discoveries may be made in the future that alter or contradict the theory.

Quote:
You underestimate the size of the universe. There are millions of planets in the Milky Way itself and there are billions of galaxies in the universe. New are being formed as we speak. The odds of having life somewhere else in the universe are much much higher than Earth being the only unique planet with life.
I agree here also, though I also agree with Mewchirio. The fact that life exists on earth shows that it is possible to have life elsewhere, too, though we may not know about it. The immense size of the universe makes that even more likely.

As for proof of creationism... Well, anyone who takes the Bible literally will quote it immediately. I think I've stated that I don't take it literally, however, so I can't actually say "There it is!" and walk away. When it comes to the belief in intelligent design (my stance on the issue), I can't prove that God exists, but then that's the point of faith: believing without knowing. Again, the belief is founded upon the fact that life as we know it relies on so much chance without some sort of divine influence that it seems impossible.
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  #520  
Old 04-08-2009, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
Well, I wouldn't say irrefutable. However, given the evidence we have at the present time, it is a very likely explanation. Remember, people hundreds of years ago thought they had proof that the world was flat, which we know to be wrong.
Correction- I believe they they took the Bible's word for it, and assumed it was proof enough. They didn't have any other proof otherwise. Same thing with the center-of-the-earth formula.

And it wasn't universally accepted. Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans, and Asian civilizations knew that the world was spherical. Thats the basis of the Mayan/Egyptian calendars.
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  #521  
Old 04-08-2009, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Snow Fairy Sugar View Post
Correction- I believe they they took the Bible's word for it, and assumed it was proof enough. They didn't have any other proof otherwise. Same thing with the center-of-the-earth formula.

And it wasn't universally accepted. Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans, and Asian civilizations knew that the world was spherical. Thats the basis of the Mayan/Egyptian calendars.
I didn't say everyone agreed with it, nor did I say that they had real proof. If the people who believed the world was round had had actual proof, they would have known it was not. I do believe it works as an analogy in this situation. Some people believed the world was round based on the 'proof' they had (whether it really was or not), and some people (me included) accept evolution based on the information we have. If you disagree, then that's fine by me; it's not really anything to debate about.
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  #522  
Old 04-08-2009, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
Before I debate any further, though, I would like proof of creation instead of debunking of evolution. Because, to me, explaining the unknown with another vastly unknown being (God) is a lot worse than making some assumptions about evolution and ancestry.
First off, I want to applaud a lot of above posters for ignorantly lumping evolutionary theory without discussing its two main parts.
  1. Microevolution- This process is the term loosely called survival of the fittest. This type of evolution undoubtedly occurs, as there is evidence for it which cannot be denied by scientists today. This is the proces by which one species adapts to its environment by random genetic mutation, but remains the same species, and only forms different varieties of the species. A good example of this is Canis Familiaris the common household dog. All breeds of pet dogs belong to this species, but each individual 'breed' of dog is its own variety.
  2. Macroevolution- This process is the term which most people think of when they hear Darwninian evolution. Macroevolution is the process of which one species changes into another species of animal by means of microevolution taking plac over a long scale of time. There is no evidence for this. Even Darwin, when he proposed his Theory on the Origin of Species wrote that there is no solid evidence for this kind of evolution.

One good point for Creationism: The Cambrian Explosion.

The Cambrian Explosion refers to a point in the fossil record in which there are abruptly so many new species, there is no possibility that Darwin's Theory of Evolution can explain the sudden appearance of all of them. The species types are so widely varied, that there is no way for any common ancestor given by Darwinism to sporadically go into a mass phase of speciation in order to accomplish the number of new species that come here in this time period.

One good point for Intelligent Design: The Mousetrap Concept
The proteins involved in bacterial flagella

The flagellum in a bacterium is the unit that spirals in a motion that provides movement via forward thrust in whatever liquid the bacterium is currently in. The proteins that form the spinning 'motor' of the flagellum are so specific in function that the removal of any one of these proteins cause the flagellum to not function, be rigid and useless spinning, among other problems.

The Mousetrap Concept

If you have seen any of the Tom and Jerry episodes, this is the kind of mousetrap I am referring to. It has 4 basic parts. The base, the catch, the spring and the hammer. If any of these parts are removed, the mousetrap does not function as a mousetrap, which is a very good reason not to buy one of these types of mousetraps without parts. Agreeably, the company and factories which made these failures at traps would eb quickly out of favor, as they do not accomplish their purposes. In the same way, bacterium without just one of these specific proteins would fall out of microevolutionary favor, due to the uselessness of its flagellum, which accomplishes great speeds in aspect to the bacterium's length. These proteins are too specific to have happenned over a long period of trial and error, as these proteins have no other function in the cellular body.

Another point for Creationism: Past Mistakes in Skeletal Restructuring

There have been works of modern dentists specializing in the care of the Neanderthal skulls and other similar proto-human skulls who have noticed that the famous Neaderthal skulls were put together incorrectly. If the models that most people accept to be true, the Neanderthal's would have gone through their teeth unrealistically quickly due to the high amounts of friction that wuld occur form the skulls simulation of chewing. The skulls, if put back together correctly, have been hypothesized, graphically simulated, and shown to be almost exactly the same as a modern day human skull. However, the work of these scientists has been held back from the public because of its undermining status to the Darwinist view of the rise of man.


If anyone has further questions, please pm me. I would be happy to help you. :-)
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  #523  
Old 04-08-2009, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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First off, I want to applaud a lot of above posters for ignorantly lumping evolutionary theory without discussing its two main parts.
Bravo. Someone who knows their stuff.
Unlike me.
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  #524  
Old 04-08-2009, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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I didn't say everyone agreed with it, nor did I say that they had real proof. If the people who believed the world was round had had actual proof, they would have known it was not.
Oh I'm so very sorry, I was under the impression that by clubbing the two together, you assumed they were on the same length.

There's a lot of factors/information supporting Evolution..unlike the Earth-is-flat theory. Of course, more information could come that can throw back evolution- but there's quite a bit of evidence linking micro and macro-evolution, and debunking of factors like(Yes, there are others, which are independent, and not developed for evolution-research) RadioCarbon Dating Processes will have to be disproved...which unfortunately, are *almost* beyond the shadow of a doubt.

And just for the random nutter-happy trolls who come in here and would say(without adding anything else): "WIKIPEDIA FAILS LOLOL I WIN DIS DEBATE": Use any reliable website, or a Physics textbook, the information contained will be more or less the same.

And its odd that people supporting Creationism does not seem interested in debating anatomical changes of fossils-present day creatures found on this planet: See the point GrassPokemon Guy has raised.
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  #525  
Old 04-09-2009, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Snow Fairy Sugar View Post
And its odd that people supporting Creationism does not seem interested in debating anatomical changes of fossils-present day creatures found on this planet: See the point GrassPokemon Guy has raised.
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