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  #181  
Old 10-15-2008, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by invalid View Post
I was saying that cats and dogs are not related, there for cannot have babies. Sorry if my post was hard to understand.
No. I think it's me that's being hard to be understood. Cats and dogs are related, just not as related as dogs and wolves. That's the difference.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Uh, Zack, even Kenny said that dogs and wolfs are of the same species, and species is the exact same thing as genus.
Genus =/= species. Learn taxonomy. I gave you a link for a reason.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
The fit are going to be able to catch the food, and thus survive, hence survival of the fittest. The weak and sick are not going to be able to catch food, so they will die. In a roundabout way, it is quality control.
Survival of the fittest refers to social Darwinism, to begin with. It's coined by an anthropologist with regards to humans and society. In any case, what is "more fit" again has nothing to do with survival, just how much offspring made. That is, an individual with a shorter life, but more offspring is more fit than one with longer life and less offspring. In any case, this is somewhat we used to explain what we see in evolution, not evolution itself. I must stress that again evolution is a fact, the theory is in what we think of how it works. It does, however, help if you stop thinking on an individual level and start thinking on a gene level. If you can't, I recommend reading "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, not to agree with what he says, but to get the framework of how to think in terms of a gene.

It's not quality control. Never was, never will be.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Where is the hard proof of this “amphibians” stage? (or is it one of those missing links?)
Oh no, my friend, you simply wanted an explanation of a plausibility, and I simply gave you one. Oh by the way, if you want to know, about the proof of amphibious stages of life before moving to land, I recommend starting on the Devonian period of the Earth.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
How does my not accepting evaluation limit my knowledge to drugs?
It does. For example, vaccination is made from a prediction on the evolution of the virus/bactrium/fungus that you want to vaccinate with. By not applying evolution (because you can't accept evolution), you also lose the prediction. This is true of drugs that treat diseases.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
I never said you were anit-creationism, I just wanted to know if you had studied creation.

Don’t say that, because you don’t know what I know. I went through school; I know what they taught me.
I can bet you any amount of money that you never went to university to study evolution.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Where is hard proof for evolution? Something that sows that evolution happened.
I showed you a million times already. Hard proof already. It's a matter of whether or not you accepted this hard proof, which, of course is that you didn't accept it, or that you didn't bother to a) read my posts carefully, and/or b) didn't bother to click on any of my links. Of course, since you don't take me seriously to begin with, I can bet it's both of the latter.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Where did life come from? What started life in motion as we know it?
Be careful here. Evolution as a fact needs not ever be concerned about this question because of the simple fact that changes in DNA structure leading to speciation is inevitable. What you really are asking is what scientists believe is the origin of life under the light of evolution (not evolution itself, again). In which case, Darwinists believe it started with inorganic chemicals and self-replicating inorganic chemicals, while some believe that the amount of time is too short (i.e. 4 billion is too short) for that to happen and that we simply came from bacteria in a comet or sorts. This part, the origin of life, is heavily debated, though. You can read about several of the different stances here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly Professor View Post
It's never a debate about evolution.
"Debate" implies that there is something like equal ground.
The only opposition here is religious.
So it boils down to actual scientific observations vs. a bronze age folktale.
No, a debate implies zero-sum between two options, each with its own pros and cons, and a lack of a satisfactory middle ground. The problem with "evolution vs. creationism" is that it isn't zero-sum between two options, there is a satisfactory middle ground (in this case, Catholicism has that middle ground), and that there are only pros to accepting evolution and only cons in rejecting evolution, while the pros and cons for believing in Creationism are muddled at best.

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Originally Posted by Dr Scott View Post
Meh, I've always found people who argue religion to be stupid (ie against it, it's fine to speak up for it :P). It's a belief thing, and it's dumb to tell people what they should believe. Also, minus the idiots who use religion to be an ass (those who start wars in its name even though its just an excuse to fight, etc.) religion is basically about being a good person. So I never understood why people fought that when there are so many jerks in the world ...
True. But that is an unfortunate fact that sometimes perfectly fine religions can damage a person's ability to think with regards to certain topics. I do, however, find that unacceptable. It may be because I cannot accept simple irrationality, but I agree with your statement nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Dr Scott View Post
Scientists have not 100% proved it is untrue, though they have tried. Aren't scientists supposed to take every single possibility into account? And isn't religion a possibility?
Bullocks. Scientists have not and should not ever try to prove or unprove religion, and I apologize for bad apples out there. Scientists are supposed to take every single empirical possibility into account. Religion (or in this case gods) is not empirical. We can't take religion into account because it's subjective, and science is objective.

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Originally Posted by Dr Scott View Post
Really, scientists are going to kill us all when they try to do something we never should and get all of us killed with a failed experiment :P.
My hunch is more that we'd die because some idiot leader of any one of the countries with nuclear power decided to start a nuclear war and thus cause the MAD clause to activate way before scientists would toy with anything "dangerous". Hey, the LHC already works and we didn't die yet. :3

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Originally Posted by Dr Scott View Post
Meh, these types of threads always get so heated ... It's more about opinions than debates, really.
Isn't opinion the origin of a debate, that debate is simply opinions stringed into arguments backed up back facts and references?

Last edited by Kenny_C.002; 10-15-2008 at 02:26 AM.
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  #182  
Old 10-15-2008, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
I can bet you any amount of money that you never went to university to study evolution.
Since I don't believe in evolution, wouldn't it be a waste of money for me to to go to college and study it?

Quote:
I showed you a million times already. Hard proof already. It's a matter of whether or not you accepted this hard proof, which, of course is that you didn't accept it, or that you didn't bother to a) read my posts carefully, and/or b) didn't bother to click on any of my links. Of course, since you don't take me seriously to begin with, I can bet it's both of the latter.
I'm talking about fossils, not laboratory experiments. Where are the fossils that show how everything evolved?


Quote:
Be careful here. Evolution as a fact needs not ever be concerned about this question because of the simple fact that changes in DNA structure leading to speciation is inevitable. What you really are asking is what scientists believe is the origin of life under the light of evolution (not evolution itself, again). In which case, Darwinists believe it started with inorganic chemicals and self-replicating inorganic chemicals, while some believe that the amount of time is too short (i.e. 4 billion is too short) for that to happen and that we simply came from bacteria in a comet or sorts. This part, the origin of life, is heavily debated, though. You can read about several of the different stances here.
So no one knows fore sure how it happened? lol, I would say that is BIG problem.
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  #183  
Old 10-15-2008, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

I edited my post between this post and yours. You might want to reread some of these.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Since I don't believe in evolution, wouldn't it be a waste of money for me to to go to college and study it?
That's the point. How can you be absolutely sure that you can't accept evolution if you haven't learned all you can learn about it? That is, why should you have a double standard against evolution?

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
I'm talking about fossils, not laboratory experiments. Where are the fossils that show how everything evolved?
So are you talking about evolution as a fact, or the theory we placed upon it when you ask that question? This is because my answer will be different depending on how you answer my question.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
So no one knows fore sure how it happened? lol, I would say that is BIG problem.
First of all, it's not "how" it happened. It's all agreed upon that evolution is how humans exist. What isn't agreed upon is "why" it happened. No, it's in fact the exciting part of science. Think of it this way: we, as scientists who only can be certain of the "how", are tackling problems on "why". It this is a big problem, then it's an awesome big problem to have.
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  #184  
Old 10-15-2008, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
I edited my post between this post and yours. You might want to reread some of these.



That's the point. How can you be absolutely sure that you can't accept evolution if you haven't learned all you can learn about it? That is, why should you have a double standard against evolution?



So are you talking about evolution as a fact, or the theory we placed upon it when you ask that question? This is because my answer will be different depending on how you answer my question.



First of all, it's not "how" it happened. It's all agreed upon that evolution is how humans exist. What isn't agreed upon is "why" it happened. No, it's in fact the exciting part of science. Think of it this way: we, as scientists who only can be certain of the "how", are tackling problems on "why". It this is a big problem, then it's an awesome big problem to have.
Here's an interesting article about how Evolution is both a fact and a theory, which directly correlates to your quote.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

"we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution."
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  #185  
Old 10-15-2008, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: Question to Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind
Oh, so this dude can insult our beliefs, but I called someone a liberal and got an infraction for it. I see now.
I never insulted anyone's beliefs. I just don't pull any punches with my language, so it may sound harsh to someone who completely disagrees. If you took offence to that post: that is completely your fault for being over-sensitive.
And two, that's name calling. Not cool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Scott View Post
Meh, I've always found people who argue religion to be stupid (ie against it, it's fine to speak up for it :P). It's a belief thing, and it's dumb to tell people what they should believe. Also, minus the idiots who use religion to be an ass (those who start wars in its name even though its just an excuse to fight, etc.) religion is basically about being a good person. So I never understood why people fought that when there are so many jerks in the world ...
I think religious debates can be a great medium for teaching critical thinking to people who otherwise would have very limited experiences with it.
I don't want to "tell people what they should believe", that's religion's job. I simply ask that you genuinely & hungrily question the world around you. And science just happens to be the most powerful tool for investigating, understanding, & challenging the world that there is.
Oh, and I also ask that people realize religion is not in any way a prerequisite for being a decent person, or verification there of. [insert Reductio ad Cheneyum]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Scott
Scientists have not 100% proved it is untrue, though they have tried. Aren't scientists supposed to take every single possibility into account? And isn't religion a possibility?
This is dangerously close to "negative proof", "argument from ignorance", & "cultural relativism", but what the heck...

The unfalsifiable cannot be absolutely ruled out by definition, but in the face of overwhelming counter-evidence (for evolution) it's hard to be "agnostic" about it; as it were.
Religious truth, and scientific truth are as different as a Clovis point from a wasp knife, respectively.
Science is the process of truth refinement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
No, a debate implies zero-sum between two options, each with its own pros and cons, and a lack of a satisfactory middle ground. The problem with "evolution vs. creationism" is that it isn't zero-sum between two options, there is a satisfactory middle ground (in this case, Catholicism has that middle ground), and that there are only pros to accepting evolution and only cons in rejecting evolution, while the pros and cons for believing in Creationism are muddled at best.
"Equal ground" as far as "validity" I should say.
But I guess the importance of validity is debatable. :p
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Last edited by Surly Professor; 10-15-2008 at 07:46 PM. Reason: removed generalization
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  #186  
Old 10-15-2008, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

I was trying to restrain myself from responding but this just took the cake.

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Since I don't believe in evolution, wouldn't it be a waste of money for me to to go to college and study it?
Then why are you arguing with him? To have a good argument for a issue, you have to know the other side as much as you do of your side.

Evolution does take place. If it doesn't then why do we have so many different kinds of animals on the planet? I even think humans evolve. Why we (people of today) built and invent all these things and humans in the past didn't? It's because our brains evolved.

The fact of evolution is true, but the theory of evolution might not be true(I hope I said that right), which I think it is not true because of my beliefs.

Invalid, I think you just have everything mixed up.
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  #187  
Old 10-15-2008, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Scuba Stevee View Post


Then why are you arguing with him? To have a good argument for a issue, you have to know the other side as much as you do of your side.
Hypocritical much? It's one thing to read the Bible, but another thing to actually understand it.
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  #188  
Old 10-16-2008, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Then why are you arguing with him? To have a good argument for a issue, you have to know the other side as much as you do of your side.
I went though public school, and learned my fair share of evolution. I was an evolutionist until I learned otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny_C.002
So are you talking about evolution as a fact, or the theory we placed upon it when you ask that question? This is because my answer will be different depending on how you answer my question.
Either, I want to see some real proof from nature.
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  #189  
Old 10-16-2008, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Either, I want to see some real proof from nature.
I want to see some real proof from nature that god exists.
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  #190  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

If it has not been mentioned yet, I'd like to ask why Galapagos wasn't brought up yet.
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  #191  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Lord Celebi View Post
I want to see some real proof from nature that god exists.
oh foolish generation.
this is like bible bashing, only test-tubes and bibles.
its in the new testament: bout thoughs who killed christ- the phariscee's- asked for signs that he was the messiah. then they killed him. what i am saying is basically everyone that asked for a sign that god exists might as well of killed christ.
think that one over.
and im still rocking in my chair with laughter at your guys heated talk

better? lol

Last edited by ThEcHaMpIoNoFsApPhIrE; 10-16-2008 at 05:57 PM.
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  #192  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:31 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by ThEcHaMpIoNoFsApPhIrE View Post
oh foolish generation.
this is like bible bashing, only test-tubes and bibles.
its in the new testament, but thoughs who killed christ- the phariscee's- asked for signs that he was the messiah. then they killed him. what i am saying is basically everyone that asked for a sign that god exists might as well of killed christ.
think that one over.
and im still rocking in my chair with laughter at your guys heated talk
Foolish generation? I think I'm older than you, FYI. The rest of that post made no sense whatsoever... Could you type that correctly, please?
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  #193  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Lord Celebi View Post
Foolish generation? I think I'm older than you, FYI. The rest of that post made no sense whatsoever... Could you type that correctly, please?
So being older makes you better and therefore you automatically win? No.

Those whining about "proof" need to go learn the fundamentals of religion. If you don't understand religion, you probably shouldn't be in this topic.
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  #194  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by invalid View Post
Either, I want to see some real proof from nature.
Either? If you're asking about the fact of evolution: HIV, cancer, tuberculosis, wolves and dogs; In essence, every biological organism. I do think, however, that the most relevant example so far is SARS, due to the fact that it is a completely new virus that stems from corona virus families. That is, it is a completely new species of virus from nature. Salmonella also stems from the E. coli family of bacteria.

If you're asking about the theory of evolution: anything published in any reputable journal with regards to evolution.

I do want to ask you this though: what do you think is evolution to begin with? To be specific: do you think evolution has anything to do with the notion of directionality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
So being older makes you better and therefore you automatically win? No.

Those whining about "proof" need to go learn the fundamentals of religion. If you don't understand religion, you probably shouldn't be in this topic.
Being older does, however, make one more experienced. You're not the first to argue faith over evolution (two unrelated things, of course), you're certainly not the last. You're also not the first who is tainted by the media's notion of evolution (which is false).

The problem is that faith has no place in a debate. The first assumes that your own religion is superior to all other religions (which is false). Second is that you assume faith supercedes empirical knowledge in a debate.
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  #195  
Old 10-16-2008, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Question to christians

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Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
So being older makes you better and therefore you automatically win? No.

Those whining about "proof" need to go learn the fundamentals of religion. If you don't understand religion, you probably shouldn't be in this topic.
LOL I don't think you know the fundamentals of religion Wunschkind you just sit here and call everyone names which I know for a fact that the bible and christianity in general don't approve of so you're obviously the one who needs to leave this thread.
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