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  #16  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?



You people need to stop fearing and hating people just because what they do is different than your lifestyle. Just because your religion says they are evil doesn't mean you need to hate them.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
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Last edited by Disruption; 07-26-2008 at 04:14 PM.
  #17  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Away View Post
As Sigma_ pointed out in the other thread, African-Americans are a minority, but they also statistically commit more crimes than any other race. Is being black wrong as well?
Being black isn't a choice. Being gay is.

@Disruption: You think juvenile insults are going to win a debate? You're pathetic.

skiboy and glados are trolls. Disregard anything they say.
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  #18  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
Being black isn't a choice. Being gay is.

@Disruption: You think juvenile insults are going to win a debate? You're pathetic.

skiboy and glados are trolls. Disregard anything they say.
You and I both know that nobody chose to be ostracised and hated by society, because that is pretty much what any form of homosexuality promises.

Regardless, being unnatural does not make anything innately bad.

And lol, I'm a troll lololol.
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  #19  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

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Originally Posted by skiboydoggy View Post
You and I both know that nobody chose to be ostracised and hated by society, because that is pretty much what any form of homosexuality promises.
Why not? I mean, when you're treated by most liberals such as yourself as a holy being, and you can even get scholarships for it!
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  #20  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
Being black isn't a choice. Being gay is.

@Disruption: You think juvenile insults are going to win a debate? You're pathetic.

skiboy and glados are trolls. Disregard anything they say.
Funny, because you are insulting me, hoping to win the debate.

Why should someone be shunned or hated because of a "choice" that they make? You are in love with Lucario, no? Should all Lucario-lovers be hated because of the choice that they made to like Lucario?

If someone were to dislike Lucario, should they hate you because you love Lucario? You are saying that because someone or something is different than the "normal" lifestyle, you should dislike them?
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  #21  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
Being black isn't a choice. Being gay is.
Too bad the matter of being gay hasn't been 100% proven by science either way. Either way, you didn't answer the question.
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Last edited by Fire Away; 07-26-2008 at 05:00 PM.
  #22  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

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Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
Why not? I mean, when you're treated by most liberals such as yourself as a holy being, and you can even get scholarships for it!
Oh boy! That explains why so many of them get depression and have suicidal tendencies!

WOW!

If they were that cunning and had such great acting ability, they could easily get a scholarship somewhere else. Honestly, I don't think they are holy or anything of the sort. If they made any overtly sexual gestures in public, I would probably puke. I mean, two unappealing persons doing something like that where I can see? Oh god, go away.
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  #23  
Old 07-26-2008, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disruption View Post

If someone were to dislike Lucario, should they hate you because you love Lucario? You are saying that because someone or something is different than the "normal" lifestyle, you should dislike them?
A lot of them do. You could just go out there and say "I like Lucario" and you'd actually make enemies. That is irrelevant though, and I'm not going into detail here.

Quote:
You said homosexuals are not fighting for special rights, just equal rights, and trying to "get rid of all these 'special' laws and prohibitions that moral superiority imposed on them." This issue of "rights" and "law" brings up an issue that needs to be explored further.

From your comments I gather that you are either an atheist or an agnostic. I could be wrong about this because at times you speak of God as though He exists, but it is difficult to tell whether you are doing so for the sake of argument or as an expression of your personal position. If I am right, and you are an atheist or an agnostic, this is very intriguing to me considering your talk of gay rights. Atheists cannot believe in the concept of rights, whether we are talking about gay rights, abortion rights, or civil rights. At best you can believe in gay privileges. Let me explain this somewhat shocking and bold statement.

Atheists may believe in rights, but given their presuppositions about God's non-existence they cannot make much sense of the concept, and cannot justify their claim to them as rights. Let me ask you three critical questions: 1) What is a right? 2) Where do rights come from? 3) What authority does one have for laying claim to something as a right?

What is a right? A right is a claim to something. What kind of a claim is it? Is it a personal claim, or a transcendent/universal claim? It is the latter. Someone who says "I have a right to an abortion!" is not saying "It's just my personal opinion that I should be able to have an abortion, but if you say 'No' then I guess I won't." No, they are saying that it would be wrong to deny them an abortion if they so choose to have one. The claim to a right is a claim to the way something ought to be. This business of "ought" implies conformity to a transcendent standard that man has no right to violate.

Those who advocate homosexual rights believe the government is wrong for denying those rights, because they are "rightfully" theirs. I would ask Why do you think they are your rights rather than an undeserved privilege the government may or may not decide to afford your interest group? Why do you think the government is wrong for currently denying you the privilege of same-sex marriage? I would argue that you think they are innate rights rather than an undeserved privilege because you intuitively recognize the existence of a transcendent moral law, which includes the concept of justice and equality. While you recognize the existence of rights, you deny their very Source.

Where do rights come from? Rights can only come from one of two sources. Either they have a transcendent source in something higher than man, or they are afforded to us by man (government). If the former, they cannot be taken away or altered by man because they do not originate with him. Man is subject to rights; rights are not subject to man. If the latter, rights can be given or taken away by man. To determine which source rights come from we must remember what a right is and is not. A right is not a claim to a personal opinion or desire, but to a transcendent ought. If we recognize that a right is a transcendent ought, and believe it would be morally wrong for anyone to deny us those rights, then we must conclude that rights originate from a source transcendent to man (to which man is subject), not human law. Without a transcendent source rights have no authority sufficient to compel the government to align its laws with what is right. Homosexuals atheists must admit that their desire for equal rights is empty talk, carrying no moral force. What is right is reduced to power or majority rule.

If there is no God where does a transcendent right such to an abortion or homosexual marriage come from? It's not there. It's all just personal opinion, peculiar to the people who hold it. Homosexuals have no more claim to homosexual marriage than I have to run red lights. Why? Because rights are merely afforded or taken away by those in power or by the majority. It's like the privilege to drive a car if you are properly licensed. That privilege could be suspended or completely abolished. When the law changes, the privilege disappears. That's the nature of rights that find their foundation merely in human law.

When rights originate with man rather than with a transcendent source such as a holy, personal God, rights become descriptive, not prescriptive; i.e. rights are not things that ought to be a certain way, but merely a description of the way things are. And if rights are only a description of the way man has determined things will be, atheistic homosexuals have no authority to claim that the government should change the laws to afford them a right that should be theirs. Such language betrays the atheistic view.

This is not to say that homosexual atheists cannot lobby to have the laws changed, but they cannot lobby for such a change under the banner of "rights." The government cannot be wrong in the privileges they grant or revoke if there is no transcendent standard for them to conform to. If there is no God, human law is supreme. If there is no transcendent moral law given by a transcendent moral law-giver the government can issue or revoke privileges at will, and there is nothing immoral about any decision they make, and no basis upon which to argue that they ought to do, or ought to have done otherwise. The only way the government ought to give someone a right is if there is a transcendent moral standard to which they are subject to.

Let me try to bring this all together and apply it to your initial point. If there is no God there is no transcendent source of rights. All claims to rights are personal opinions with no moral force to command conformity. Only a holy, personal, and transcendent God can explain the authority of rights, and explain our intuitive recognition of universal oughts. If there is no God there cannot be any human rights, only human privileges. These privileges can be given or taken at will.

You objected to the current laws, arguing that they deny homosexuals what rightfully belongs to them. You even went so far as to say that homosexual rights are not special rights, implying that they are deserved. But if we start with the presupposition of God's non-existence our rights are defined by the government, and whatever privileges they decide to grant us are right and need not be any other way than what they are (descriptive). Seeing that rights are rooted in the will of the people, and the majority of Americans are opposed to certain homosexual privileges, any request for homosexual privileges is a request for special privileges. The only way they are not special is if they are rooted in a transcendent source, or if the majority of public opinion favors them. That's the conclusion one is left with in an atheistic world. If you recognize that there is something inherently wrong with this idea (which you do), then you are relying on theism to do so. Since you assume theism to argue for homosexual rights, you have the burden of proof to demonstrate how you know the divine source of our transcendent rights approves of homosexuality. If your divine source is the Christian God, the case simply cannot be made. As a matter of fact it would be a difficult case to make with any of the world's major religions.
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  #24  
Old 07-26-2008, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

That entire essay goes:

"You atheist, you bad. Atheists cannot make moral argument, because they lack morality. Therefore I win."

Morals are bound by human understanding, not by God. God transcends morality, which is why humanity has dictated its own laws since the inception of civilisation. Even if you are Christian, you have to concede that there were systems of law before the Ten Commandments were passed around, making the God-willed system moot.
As for the issue with the majority rule, that's true, but there are certain factors influencing this majority, with debates on such matters being one of them.
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  #25  
Old 07-26-2008, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiboydoggy View Post
That entire essay goes:

"You atheist, you bad. Atheists cannot make moral argument, because they lack morality. Therefore I win."
No, you're not smart enough to understand what he was getting at.
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  #26  
Old 07-26-2008, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
No, you're not smart enough to understand what he was getting at.
No, I understand it just fine. It's an essay that's incredibly pathetic in its basic premise that atheists cannot understand what human rights means.

I call bull.
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  #27  
Old 07-26-2008, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Ad hiominem much kids?

wunschkind, I'd like a response to my posts, considering that you're supposed to be capable of refuting them. Otherwise, you've basically conceded that there isn't anything wrong with homosexuality. Period.

Oh, and you forget that you dodged the whole lucario argument: it's not whether or not people actually do it, but rather that they should do it or not, if it is a choice. The answer, of course, is that people shouldn't for such a harmless "choice". And according to science, the current concensus is that there IS genetic inheretance for homosexuality, as demonstrated by National Geographic in the video I posted.
  #28  
Old 07-26-2008, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
Being black isn't a choice. Being gay is.

@Disruption: You think juvenile insults are going to win a debate? You're pathetic.

skiboy and glados are trolls. Disregard anything they say.
I am a troll for answering the ******* question in the thread name? You are a troll sir, good day.

You say that people shouldn't be restricted to love. "So what if they like someone of the same gender? That's their sexual preference." Then shouldn't bestiality, incest, and child love be legal? So what if you like dogs, your sister, or a 12 year old boy/girl? Isn't that just a sexual preference?

Now that's my view. I wouldn't have posted a second time if someone hadn't called me a troll.
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Last edited by Apocrypha; 07-26-2008 at 08:29 PM.
  #29  
Old 07-26-2008, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
I am a troll for answering the ******* question in the thread name? You are a troll sir, good day.

You say that people shouldn't be restricted to love. "So what if they like someone of the same gender? That's their sexual preference." Then shouldn't bestiality, incest, and child love be legal? So what if you like dogs, your sister, or a 12 year old boy/girl? Isn't that just a sexual preference?

Now that's my view. I wouldn't have posted a second time if someone hadn't called me a troll.
There are other consequences that come into play with these other cases, and it is what we call a slippery slope fallacy. Just because we accept something doesn't mean we will come to accept everything else to the point where it is detrimental to society.
And the original case against incest was mostly genetics anyway.
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2008, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality - Right or Wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
I am a troll for answering the ******* question in the thread name? You are a troll sir, good day.

You say that people shouldn't be restricted to love. "So what if they like someone of the same gender? That's their sexual preference." Then shouldn't bestiality, incest, and child love be legal? So what if you like dogs, your sister, or a 12 year old boy/girl? Isn't that just a sexual preference?

Now that's my view. I wouldn't have posted a second time if someone hadn't called me a troll.
If we start eating cows, whats to stop us from eating monkies? Humans? Therefore we should all be safe and become vegetarians, or else we'll become cannibals. ;)

Slippery Slopes are bad logic to use in a debate.
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