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  #1  
Old 07-16-2008, 02:43 PM
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Default The Truth

First off, this is not a flame thread, this is a discussion thread, and BOTH sides of this issue should respect the other side's opininon, and not flame, while still getting your point across.

Okay, now what was the best selling book in 1984? What about 1994? 2004? 2008? It is the same book every year: the Bible. Every year, the Bible sells more than any other book. I don't know the average number, but it's well into the millions. This is because I believe it's the Truth, and so do millions of other people. The average American household has 4 Bibles. Not everyone reads it every day, but it's known as the place to go to get true answers and help. In this post, I will elaborate on how the Bible is truth.

1.) Unity

If you took the first chapter from each Harry Potter book, the first 5 lines from every Robert Frost poem, the first 3 lines from any William Shakespeare play, and the ending of every Steven Speilberg film, and the the first paragraph from M.L.K. Jr.'s "I Have A Dream" speech, and meshed them all together, would it make sense? No, of course not. They were all written by talented people, but they don't have unity. The Bible, however, has unity. It was written by at least 20 men scattered across different cities, countries, and years for that matter. It's not a mere coincidence that they are all about the same thing, and they all go together smoothly. That's because one person was guiding each of them to write it. It was God. All things written in the Bible are "God-breathed", or inspired and guided by God.

2.) Predictive Prophecy

If I could tell you the winning Lottery numbers for tomorrow, would you be suprised? What about who will win the football game tomorrow? What if I could do that, say, every day for the next month? You would have to believe what I was telling you was true, and that someone from the lottery/football office is slipping me tips. This is exactly what the Bible did. The Old Testament, written hundreds of years before Jesus was born, predicted that he would be born in a manger, born of a virging, born in Bethlehem, come into town on a donkey, be betrayed, be crucified, and be raised from the dead three days later. It even predicted what the betrayal price would be. These events came true with 100% accuracy. This is so because God told them these things would happen even before they did.

3.) Scientific Foreknowledge

The Bible displays knowledge of things hundreds of years before "Science" discovered them. King David talked about the "paths of the sea" before someone discovered ocean currents in the 1800s. He also talked about the "springs of the sea" before hot springs were discovered a few years ago. He talked about "recesses of the deep" before the ocean trenches were discovered only a few years ago. The last part would have been impossible to know about, becuase the pressure has crushed anything until recently. Someone in the Bible also talked about how the universe will "deteriorate". We know know that the universe will eventually be destroyed. These knowledges, like the previous things, were told to David and others by God.

4.) Lasting

What was the best selling book in 1908(besides the Bible)? You don't know? Why not? It's becuase nobobdy is interested in it anymore. The Bible, is still read today. It was written over 2000 years ago. It has knowledge that still applies today. No other book is like that. We can still read the Bible today and enjoy it and learn from it.
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Last edited by Apocrypha; 07-16-2008 at 02:49 PM.
  #2  
Old 07-16-2008, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: The Truth

Even though it is the most bought book, did you know it is also one of the most stolen books?

1) The bible was edited many times. People cold of easily edited some so it fit together in unity. =P Besides, I'm pretty sure its not like they all wrote their own seperate part, and added it together without seeing the other's first. Since as you said, it was written across different time spans, allowing people to read other parts of it.

2) So what if it predicted how Jesus would be born and die? It also predicted many things about the Messiah that DIDN'T happen. (I'm pretty sure only 25% happened)

3) Don't know enough about it to discuss...

4) Want to know what other book most familys have multiple of, and have been used and (somewhat) read for quite a long while? A Dictionary. =P

Just because its been around for a long while and a lot of people believe it doesn't make it correct. I'd rather go by my own religion, and not be part of any major religion.

Edit: In 1806 the Compendious Dictionary of the English Language was made, being the first truly american dictionary.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC View Post
Even though it is the most bought book, did you know it is also one of the most stolen books?
Yes. Everything is stolen now and then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC View Post
1) The bible was edited many times. People cold of easily edited some so it fit together in unity. =P Besides, I'm pretty sure its not like they all wrote their own seperate part, and added it together without seeing the other's first. Since as you said, it was written across different time spans, allowing people to read other parts of it.
I don't believe it was edited like that. They did write their own parts though. The Bible is a collection of books. The word bibliography is derived from that. Or vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC View Post
2) So what if it predicted how Jesus would be born and die? It also predicted many things about the Messiah that DIDN'T happen. (I'm pretty sure only 25% happened)
Prove it. Seriously though, show me some of those scriptures. I am positive that all of it happened accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC View Post
4) Want to know what other book most familys have multiple of, and have been used and (somewhat) read for quite a long while? A Dictionary. =P
I know that... like the Bible, it is very useful. The Bible and the Dictionary are the two most common books in the average household.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC View Post
Just because its been around for a long while and a lot of people believe it doesn't make it correct. I'd rather go by my own religion, and not be part of any major religion.
The facts within it make it correct.
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2008, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
Yes. Everything is stolen now and then.



I don't believe it was edited like that. They did write their own parts though. The Bible is a collection of books. The word bibliography is derived from that. Or vice versa.



Prove it. Seriously though, show me some of those scriptures. I am positive that all of it happened accordingly.

I'll try to find some when I have the time.

I know that... like the Bible, it is very useful. The Bible and the Dictionary are the two most common books in the average household.



The facts within it make it correct.
The facts don't make the whole bible correct though.

Edit: Here is a site with some unfulfilled prophecies. I don't know much about them, but I know FFK knows more than me. xD

http://www.geocities.com/logic_faith/prophecies.htm
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  #5  
Old 07-16-2008, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: The Truth

Alright GLaDOS, answer me this.

What the HELL was the point in posting this? You are like ASKING for people to disagree with you so you can argue with them.

You pretty much just posted your beliefs. That's great. Was it necessary? No, because I doubt you are going to change your beliefs no matter what anyone says, so why ask for arguements?

You just posted this to get attention and you know it.

Frankly, the only thing you are going to start here is flaming and heated arguements, so thanks.
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:51 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
Okay, now what was the best selling book in 1984? What about 1994? 2004? 2008? It is the same book every year: the Bible. Every year, the Bible sells more than any other book. I don't know the average number, but it's well into the millions. This is because I believe it's the Truth, and so do millions of other people. The average American household has 4 Bibles. Not everyone reads it every day, but it's known as the place to go to get true answers and help. In this post, I will elaborate on how the Bible is truth.
Yeah, fiction usually sells pretty well.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

I"m Jewish. But I don't take the Torah in total reality. I've read parts of the bible and I don't take them as full through either. I believe in a God and a lot of spiritual things. But I think the Bible/Torah, whatever, most Holy books intertwine and have similarities. When I practice Torah, I read it as if it were a puzzle that I need to figure out.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

I don't see the point this thread is trying to make. Plenty of people have Christian beliefs and buy the Bible, and others don't believe in Christianity and don't buy it. What does this prove about the Bible's credibility? Everyone has their own beliefs, and all this does it prove that a lot of people have Christian beliefs or interests in Christianity. Wouldn't this be more of a post to put in the "Your take on Religion" thread or something, since you're trying to prove your belief in the Bible?
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurai Wolf View Post
I don't see the point this thread is trying to make. Plenty of people have Christian beliefs and buy the Bible, and others don't believe in Christianity and don't buy it. What does this prove about the Bible's credibility? Everyone has their own beliefs, and all this does it prove that a lot of people have Christian beliefs or interests in Christianity. Wouldn't this be more of a post to put in the "Your take on Religion" thread or something, since you're trying to prove your belief in the Bible?
Exactly, This thread is pointless. And yor argument should be posted in the "Your take on Religion" thread.

Plus, if this is a thread to convert us all to Christianity... its not gonna work. We won't change your beliefs, and your not gonna change ours :D
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  #10  
Old 07-17-2008, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

The average American family has about 4-10 porn sites in their history. Watching porn MUST be a good thing!

I'm not an atheist. All I'm saying is you can't base your belief / try to make us believe something by saying "everybody's doing it!" which is basically what you just tried to do.

Other than that, there's already a religious thread in this forum. That's where this should have been posted.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:30 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
First off, this is not a flame thread, this is a discussion thread, and BOTH sides of this issue should respect the other side's opininon, and not flame, while still getting your point across.
As has been said, this is not a thread for discussion, because there's really nothing to discuss. This is basically to convert people to Christianity, which won't work.

Quote:
Okay, now what was the best selling book in 1984? What about 1994? 2004? 2008? It is the same book every year: the Bible. Every year, the Bible sells more than any other book. I don't know the average number, but it's well into the millions. This is because I believe it's the Truth, and so do millions of other people. The average American household has 4 Bibles. Not everyone reads it every day, but it's known as the place to go to get true answers and help. In this post, I will elaborate on how the Bible is truth.
No, it is not because the Bible is "the Truth", it's because people believe it's the truth, and therefore they buy it.

@KFC: Bad argument, as the dictionary is in fact fully the truth.

Quote:
1.) Unity

If you took the first chapter from each Harry Potter book, the first 5 lines from every Robert Frost poem, the first 3 lines from any William Shakespeare play, and the ending of every Steven Speilberg film, and the the first paragraph from M.L.K. Jr.'s "I Have A Dream" speech, and meshed them all together, would it make sense? No, of course not. They were all written by talented people, but they don't have unity. The Bible, however, has unity. It was written by at least 20 men scattered across different cities, countries, and years for that matter. It's not a mere coincidence that they are all about the same thing, and they all go together smoothly. That's because one person was guiding each of them to write it. It was God. All things written in the Bible are "God-breathed", or inspired and guided by God.
The books would not only have been edited slightly over the years, but also written, and re-written, and re-written over and over again because there would need to be more copies for everyone, plus copies needed to be replaced, and before the printing press that was done by hand. So there is absolutely, absolutely no way it's exactly the same as it used to be.

Quote:
2.) Predictive Prophecy

If I could tell you the winning Lottery numbers for tomorrow, would you be suprised? What about who will win the football game tomorrow? What if I could do that, say, every day for the next month? You would have to believe what I was telling you was true, and that someone from the lottery/football office is slipping me tips. This is exactly what the Bible did. The Old Testament, written hundreds of years before Jesus was born, predicted that he would be born in a manger, born of a virging, born in Bethlehem, come into town on a donkey, be betrayed, be crucified, and be raised from the dead three days later. It even predicted what the betrayal price would be. These events came true with 100% accuracy. This is so because God told them these things would happen even before they did.
Yeah, the Bible says that happened, but how do we know it's true? We have no physical evidence that any of that actually happened. It's very possibly that Mary was just fooling around (Christians, please don't kill me, i'm just giving my opinion), and then lied about it. Everything Jesus supposedly did may have been coincidence, or embellished to seem like a miracle, or hell, it might hve even been sleight of hand. The dude could have very easily been nothing more than a magician, but we don't know and probably won't in any of our lifetimes because we have no solid evidence. And I stand by my belief that someone went into the cave (it was a cave, right?) where they tossed his body and took it away in order to give him a proper burial, then kept their mouths shut later on.

Quote:
3.) Scientific Foreknowledge

The Bible displays knowledge of things hundreds of years before "Science" discovered them. King David talked about the "paths of the sea" before someone discovered ocean currents in the 1800s. He also talked about the "springs of the sea" before hot springs were discovered a few years ago. He talked about "recesses of the deep" before the ocean trenches were discovered only a few years ago. The last part would have been impossible to know about, becuase the pressure has crushed anything until recently. Someone in the Bible also talked about how the universe will "deteriorate". We know know that the universe will eventually be destroyed. These knowledges, like the previous things, were told to David and others by God.
Or, it's just coincidence. He may not have been talking about those things, it may very well have been something else. And aside from that, where does it mention dinosaurs? Or evolution? Or any other of a ton of things that are accepted as scientific fact? None of those things are mentioned in the Bible.

Quote:
4.) Lasting

What was the best selling book in 1908(besides the Bible)? You don't know? Why not? It's becuase nobobdy is interested in it anymore. The Bible, is still read today. It was written over 2000 years ago. It has knowledge that still applies today. No other book is like that. We can still read the Bible today and enjoy it and learn from it.
Sun Tzu's The Art of War, written 6th Century BC, still extremely famous and well read amongst people it is relevant to (seriously, find me a competent military leader who hasn't read The Art of War) and who are curious about it (I'm no military man and I still read it because it was interesting). The Bible is read by people who find it relevant, and people who are curious about what it says. It has nothing to do with truth, if you're a religious person you probably have a Bible. It has nothing to do with truth.
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  #12  
Old 07-17-2008, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

I think this thread should be re-named, before it gets flamed, because some people do not believe the Bible to be the word of God or the truth.



Er... Well... The Bible was obviously edited many times. The OT was practically stolen from the Jewish, well it was written by them anyhoo.

True, the Bible is MORALLY right, if not Scientifically. It does have good morals, but not really... Well, it doesn't really fit with what is physically possible...

True, it is a bestseller, but not THE best... I don't believe.

I don't believe what the Bible preaches is true or the word of God, but that's just my opinion.

Sometimes it's enjoyable to read the Bible, but rarely, I attempted to read the Bible and I just gave up because, really, I debated with everything in there, and I didn't even finish the first page. >_+

I disagree with some of the Bible's morals, but I guess they do mean well, just some of them are completely off and wrong, like "A Man who Lies with another Man shall be put to Death." That's really stupid and wrong. That's not my opinion, that's just the truth.




Yeah, and lastly, I shall repeat again, please change the title of this thread to The Bible, or something else, because, you're trying to convert us into Christians, something most of us don't want to be. If you have to shove your beliefs down our throats, it's not that true is it now. Einstein didn't have to yell at people that e=mc2, he provided solid, true evidence that couldn't be argued with. Yeah, the Bible is blurry.
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: The Truth


He is the truth.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: The Truth

Did someone call for Old Testament knowledge? =p Hi, KFC.


Anywa....



Quote:
Prove it. Seriously though, show me some of those scriptures. I am positive that all of it happened accordingly.
Read on, I can disprove many. =\ That's the problem with beign taught the scriptures from a priest instead of learning and studying yourself... They fudge things to make you believe more.



Quote:
1.) Unity

If you took the first chapter from each Harry Potter book, the first 5 lines from every Robert Frost poem, the first 3 lines from any William Shakespeare play, and the ending of every Steven Speilberg film, and the the first paragraph from M.L.K. Jr.'s "I Have A Dream" speech, and meshed them all together, would it make sense? No, of course not. They were all written by talented people, but they don't have unity. The Bible, however, has unity. It was written by at least 20 men scattered across different cities, countries, and years for that matter. It's not a mere coincidence that they are all about the same thing, and they all go together smoothly. That's because one person was guiding each of them to write it. It was God. All things written in the Bible are "God-breathed", or inspired and guided by God.
It was edited many times to take OUT contradicting time lines and such. Also, if you mean a bible with the NT and OT, be aware that pieces were added or obviously edietd by christians in their OT translation, to make it fit their beliefs.

Quote:
2.) Predictive Prophecy

If I could tell you the winning Lottery numbers for tomorrow, would you be suprised? What about who will win the football game tomorrow? What if I could do that, say, every day for the next month? You would have to believe what I was telling you was true, and that someone from the lottery/football office is slipping me tips. This is exactly what the Bible did. The Old Testament, written hundreds of years before Jesus was born, predicted that he would be born in a manger, born of a virging, born in Bethlehem, come into town on a donkey, be betrayed, be crucified, and be raised from the dead three days later. It even predicted what the betrayal price would be. These events came true with 100% accuracy. This is so because God told them these things would happen even before they did.
Actually, it didn't. =) It never called the mother a virgin. The word for virgin is Bethulah, yet the word used to describe the would-be mother was Almah. Almah refers to an age, like kid or teen or adult, not to a virgnity status. In fact, the word almah is also applied to others in the OT/talmud/other important jewish writings of the same time... And it sometimes used to describe young PREGNANT women. So unless there's a flood of virgin births going around this is untrue. Heck, it's even used t describe an ADULTERESS in Proverbs 30:19-20! She's certainly no virgin.

And also? jesus fulfilled LESS than 25% of the prophecies in the Old Testament.

Here are a handful that I know off the top of my head he didn't fulfill.

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10) (Ironically, some say Joseph WAS decsended from this line, so if he hadn't been called a virgin birth he could claim this part of the prophecy! While religion goes through the mother, lineage is through the father in Judaism)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* This one can be taken as figurative, but it is said that the animals will lie down together, lion and lamb, and live in peace, and the vicious beasts will disappear.
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Also? The 'suffering servant' from Isaiah 53 isn't jesus, it's meant to be Israel. And in addition to the Almah thing? Many think Isaiah was trying to comfort Ahaz, not really predict the messiah would be born of a human. Many people, reading IN context, think he was prophecying that Ahaz's wife would give birth to someone who'd fix the world.. Especially since Emmanuel isn't what jesus was named, but may have been, according to scholars at that time, the name Ahaz and his wife were going to name their child if it was male. After all, how would knowledge of a future prophecy so far away comfort Ahaz?

And finally, jesus fulfills a few minor prophecies like place of birth... But not the IMPORTANT ones like the rebuilding of the temple, re-establishment of the Sanhedrin, all Jews returning to Israel as it's boundaries were in biblical times and remaining there unchallenged and in peace... And oh, shall I go on?


Quote:
The Bible displays knowledge of things hundreds of years before "Science" discovered them. King David talked about the "paths of the sea" before someone discovered ocean currents in the 1800s.
While the old testament does have many futuristic instructions, this one's silly. Anyone can look at an ocean and see currents, or the grooves in the sand/stone of the bottom where water erodes shapes. This 'science' was known back then, simply under another name.

Quote:
He also talked about the "springs of the sea" before hot springs were discovered a few years ago.
This is ridiculous, hot springs were discovered longgggg before 'a few years ago'.
Quote:
He talked about "recesses of the deep" before the ocean trenches were discovered only a few years ago. The last part would have been impossible to know about, becuase the pressure has crushed anything until recently.
If you are truly religious and believe in the OT and such, you'd know that they could easily have seen these things when the Red Sea was parted for them as they left Egypt.

Quote:
Someone in the Bible also talked about how the universe will "deteriorate". We know know that the universe will eventually be destroyed. These knowledges, like the previous things, were told to David and others by God.
And were included in other religions BEFORE the OT... The knowledge that someday everything would end has been part of many religions that came before monotheism.


Quote:
What was the best selling book in 1908(besides the Bible)? You don't know? Why not? It's becuase nobobdy is interested in it anymore. The Bible, is still read today. It was written over 2000 years ago.
This is equally silly. Does that mean Harry Potter is now the new religion, due to popularity? Of course the bible was popular... For a long time books were expensive and hard to print, and so only religious books, considered important, were owned by non scholars/rich folk. And remember, for a long time those who didn't show a belief in christianity, own texts, go to mass, etc, could and would be killed, exiled, or enslaved. So of course people bought the bible!
On the topic of age... Beowulf is just as old and still read, too, as are many other ancient texts.


Quote:
It has knowledge that still applies today. No other book is like that. We can still read the Bible today and enjoy it and learn from it.
-cough- several old Jewish texts have knowledge still used today. Heck, hand washing rituals, etc, stemmed partially from the knowledge that diseases were somehow physically spread, but unseen, long before 'germs' were studied under a microscope... Thus why in the medieval times, Jews were a little less prone to the plague, as they washed regularly and before eating instead of thinking bathing was 'unhealthy', and why the other villagers usually killed them off whenever the sickness hit.



Edit: And change the htread title to something about christianity, eesh. ._.; Let's not push our opinions on people, mmmkay?
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Last edited by FireflyK; 07-17-2008 at 11:50 PM.
  #15  
Old 07-18-2008, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by c-wooper View Post

He is the truth.
Okay, awesome as Buddy Jesus is, you're going to have to say something to back that up instead of just saying it and then leaving. Because you see, that's what we do here. We back what we say up with facts. That's what's called debate.
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