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  #16  
Old 06-22-2008, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
Then you haven't been reading closely, the bible advocates for the killing of homosexuals, among other things, and any people who oppose God's way.

Hell, even lots of old prayers based on the bible openly call for conversion or shunning/expulsion of non-christians. The catholic missal, from latin mass, includes lines about praying that the 'perfidious Jews' will see the error of their ways and convert.


Even the popes often openly preach passages from the bible supporting murder or expulsion of non-christians:

Pope Clement VIII: “The Bible itself says that the Jews are an accursed people.”

And he's not misinterperting. This is straight from the christian new testament.
“The Jews who both killed the Lord JESUS, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are enemies to all men. [...] To fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.” (I Thessalonians 2)

Pope Leo VII: “Let the Gospel be preached unto them and, if they remain obstinate, let them be expelled.”



Anyone who didn't convert was to be expelled from the land, or if they didn't leave on time, enslaved:

Pope Saint Pius V: “The Jewish people fell from the heights because of their faithlessness and condemned their Redeemer to a shameful death. Their godlessness has assumed such forms that, for the salvation of our own people, it becomes necessary to prevent their disease. Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the property of impoverished Christians, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers; and the most damaging aspect of the matter is that they allure the unsuspecting through magical incantations, superstition, and witchcraft to the Synagogue of Satan and boast of being able to predict the future. We have carefully investigated how this revolting sect abuses the name of Christ and how harmful they are to those whose life is threatened by their deceit. On account of these and other serious matters, and because of the gravity of their crimes which increase day to day more and more, We order that, within 90 days, all Jews in our entire earthly realm of justice - in all towns, districts, and places - must depart these regions. After this time limit shall all at the present or in the future, who dwell or wander into that city or other already mentioned, be affected, their property confiscated and handed over to the Siscus, and they shall becomes slaves of the Roman Church, live in perpetual servitude and the Roman Church shall have the same rights over them as the remaining [worldly] lords over slaves and property.” (Hebraeorum Gens)

Pope Innocent IV: “We who long with all our hearts for the salvation of souls, grant you full authority by these present letters to banish the Jews, either in your own person or through the agency of others, especially since, as we have been informed, they do not abide by the regulations drawn up for them by this Holy See.” (To the King of France)

Pope Innocent III: “The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.” (To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris)

Pope Gregory IX: “They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future become insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” (Epistle to the Hierarchy of Germany)




And in addition to killing or banishing people, they also banned them from holding political offices:
Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Ecumenical Lateran Council: “We therefore renew in this canon, on account of the boldness of the offenders, what the Council of Toledo providently decreed in this matter: we forbid Jews to be appointed to public offices


And didn't accept their testimonies in court:
Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Ecumenical Council: “We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians - and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be slaves to Christians.” (Canon 26)




Not that they particularly WANT them to convert, anyway:
Pope Innocent III: “When Jews are admitted out of pity into familiar intercourse with Christians, they repay their hosts, according to the popular proverb, after the fashion of the rat hidden in the sack, or the snake in the bosom, or of the burning brand in one’s lap.”

Pope Stephen III: “With great sorrow and mortal anxiety, We have heard that the Jews have in a Christian land the same rights as Christians, that Christian men and women live under the same roof with these traitors and defile their souls day and night with blasphemies.” (Epistle to the Bishop of Norbonne)

Pope Gregory IX: “We order all our brother bishops absolutely to suppress the blasphemy of Jews in your dioceses, churches, and communities, so that they do not dare raise their necks, bent under eternal slavery, to revile the Redeemer.”


Pope Clement VIII: “All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor. […] Their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live.”




In fact, the popes and the bible are where most of hitler's ideas came from:
Pope Eugene IV: “We decree and order that from now on, and for all time […] All and every single Jew, of whatever sex and age, must everywhere wear the distinctive dress and known marks by which they can be evidently distinguished from Christians.

Pope Saint Pius V: “In order to make an end of all doubt concerning the colour of the cap and the sign of the women, we declare that the colour must be yellow.” (Romanus Pontifex)

Pope Innocent IV: “And that you [King Saint Louis IX] order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondwoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” (The Wicked Perfidy of the Jews)


Although even hitler didn't believe the Jews were the anti christ:
Pope Saint Gregory I: “It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord’s day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord’s day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed.” (Epistles, Book XIII:1)


See also: Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Expulsion of Jews from Carthage in 250, Alexandria in 415, France in 554, France again in 561, Visigoth spain in 612, Visigoth empire in 642, Italy in 855, Sens in 876, Mayence in 1012, France in 1181, England in 1920, France in 1306, Switzerland in 1348, Hielbronn Germany in 1349, Hungary in 1349, Strasbourg in 1388, Germany in 1394, France in 1394, Austria in 1422, Fribourg and Zurich in 1424, Cologne in 1426, Savory in 1432, Mainz in 1438, Augsburg in 1439, Bavaria in 1446, Franconis in 1453,Breslau in 1453, Wurzburg in 1454, Vincenza in 1485, Spain in 1492, Lithuania in 1495, Portugal in 1497, Germany in 1499, Strasbourg in 1514, Regensburg in 1519, Naples in 1540, Bohemia in 1542, Genoa in 1550, Bavaria in 1551, Pesaro in 1555, Austra in 1559, Prague in 1561... The list goes on.

Then there's the execution of heretics, with all sorts of torture involved, the treatment of Marranos/Conversos in Spain, 'Heresy Hunters', burning at the stake, false accusations of 'heresy' so the church would aquire the property of the executed people, Blood Libel, tests for the 'devil's spot' (a spot which felt no pain) tested by stabbing stripped prisoners repeatedly)....
tl;dr. Sorry, but what's your point?
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  #17  
Old 06-22-2008, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by Technical Difficulties View Post
tl;dr. Sorry, but what's your point?
Read the post I was responding to, dear.

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The difference is that the Bible doesn't advise Christians to go out and start randomly killing people who don't believe what they do. At least not any Bible I've ever read... o_0
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  #18  
Old 06-22-2008, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
Read the post I was responding to, dear.
All right you got me. So almost no one in any religion that follows a religious text follows it exactly. If we did, the religion would cause more trouble than it's worth. So, we're all agreed that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are a bunch of crazies who take their religion too seriously? Good.

Heh, this post will get me more arguments than not, probably, but at least I got us back on topic... >D>

Oh wait, almost forgot:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ten Commandments
Thou shalt not kill
For me, that basically overrides anything else. =/
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  #19  
Old 06-22-2008, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by PokemonKnowItAllVanessa View Post
War solves nothing, for it is a dangerous thing. You may win, but they might want to get revenge, then it goes on like that. We want peace. When you go out to the country, you'll find friendly folks who help each other out, not shooting randomn neighboors with rifles and machine guns.
I disagree with these statements.

I may not like living my day knowing many lives are being lost to defend this country, but they're fighting over there in Iraq to defend us AND defend people there from the suicide bombers. War can solve problems. We're giving an effort over there in Iraq, and it's not pointless. Even families whose man of the house are over there in Iraq doing their job are appreciative of what they are doing.

Also, to get this clear, world peace is impossible. It truly is just a dream. Just a dream. You look at all of the drunk drivers, suicide bombers, murderers, etc. You can't stop it. There will almost always be at least of one of these, except possibly suicide bombers, maybe, one day.


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  #20  
Old 06-22-2008, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by tyvoke View Post
All right you got me. So almost no one in any religion that follows a religious text follows it exactly. If we did, the religion would cause more trouble than it's worth. So, we're all agreed that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are a bunch of crazies who take their religion too seriously? Good.

Heh, this post will get me more arguments than not, probably, but at least I got us back on topic... >D>
^^; That's basically my point though...Many religions have some pretty crazy stuff in their old texts- but most people don't follow it anymore. Most Muslims don't follow the 'Kill the infidels" stuff either. The problem is, the 5% who do are in charge of the islamic countries. ^^: That's all.

And btw, the ten commandments don't say "Do not kill". They say "Do not murder".
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Last edited by FireflyK; 06-22-2008 at 09:27 PM.
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  #21  
Old 06-22-2008, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
^^; That's basically my point though...Many religions have some pretty crazy stuff in their old texts- but most people don't follow it anymore. Most Muslims don't follow the 'Kill the infidels" stuff either. The problem is, the 5% who do are in charge of the islamic countries. ^^: That's all.
Very true. Wow, we could have almost had a separate thread for that argument...

Oh, and Geoffrey's Darkness pretty much summed up my feelings on this topic, so I'm gonna' leave now. kthnxbai.
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  #22  
Old 06-22-2008, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Oh, and Geoffrey's Darkness pretty much summed up my feelings on this topic, so I'm gonna' leave now. kthnxbai.
I guess it's the "informed pro-American" opinion. xD


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  #23  
Old 06-22-2008, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

The Iraq war totally ruined the U.S Military{85% of the Military think that the Military's much weaker than what it was five years ago} and Middle Class Economy{Don't ask}.

It's definitely not going to end some time soon...not as long as the people who back the war keep gaining more and more money through Investments. Hmph, good thing Gordon Brown's withdrawing...lets hope Bush does that too.

But the war in Iraq will never end. No matter what.
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  #24  
Old 06-23-2008, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
Not to mention... There have been mass graves of Kurds and other political/ethnic/religious people who are disliked by the Iraqi government. =\ That s*** is not right.

=\ ANd I kinda resent that religion remark. MY religion doesn't go around murdering people, and we're a major part of donations to charity, so I'd say we do a lot of good for the world.



I wish. Israel is bombed at least once every week, has been for years, and they're our ALLY, yet we do nothing!



Or those who follow a different version. The SHi'ite and Sunni muslims have been fighting each other for years over who's religion is the One True Way (Tm). =\

However, not every muslim's involved in the killing. Plenty of them are good, peaceful people. It's just their leaders are not.



Back at religion mark, I'm not accusing all religions of needlessly killing people, but, I'm laying no blame here, but because Hilter hated a particular religion, The Nazi's kinda rose upwards, sure there are many other reasons, and I'm just guessing, but yeah, religion DOES cause strife, being the victim or perpetrator.


Bah, just lock everyone in a room, after a good few hours of banging around and failing to kill each other and all, they'd settle down at come to some kind of agreement. Really, if you just cuffed them all and chained them to padded walls, after they just kicked up a ruckus, they'd settle down and eventually start to talk?
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  #25  
Old 06-23-2008, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by Stormdancer94 View Post
Back at religion mark, I'm not accusing all religions of needlessly killing people, but, I'm laying no blame here, but because Hilter hated a particular religion, The Nazi's kinda rose upwards, sure there are many other reasons, and I'm just guessing, but yeah, religion DOES cause strife, being the victim or perpetrator.


Bah, just lock everyone in a room, after a good few hours of banging around and failing to kill each other and all, they'd settle down at come to some kind of agreement. Really, if you just cuffed them all and chained them to padded walls, after they just kicked up a ruckus, they'd settle down and eventually start to talk?

The nazis needed a scapegoat. If religion wasn';t around, they'd have chosen something else.
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2008, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by FireflyK View Post
The nazis needed a scapegoat. If religion wasn';t around, they'd have chosen something else.


Hmm... Possibly, but one reason I think Hitler might have gone against the Jews was that apparently, he was a vegetarian... Dunno, Jews don't eat meat and such either do they? So... ... Maybe... I have no idea, but still, there'd be some plausible reason, Hitler was pretty bad, but he wasn't stupid.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

Jews eat Koscher.
Actually, Hitler DID hate Jews with a passion, but it wouldn't have mattered in light of his Aryan-complex anyway.

Ah heck, whatever.

Thing is, the Iraq War is already on. To pull out now would be completely irresponsible and would solve nothing. Reducing forces in the country is probably a step in the right direction, but the thing is, until there can be an assurance that peace will be kept in Iraq without any sort of military presence, pulling out will just be a bunch of thorns.
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  #28  
Old 06-24-2008, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

Muslims cannot touch or eat pork. Iraqis and other Middle Easterners are Muslim. Solution? Drop bacon and pork chops all over their towns and water supplies. That way, the terrorist get thrown off guard and the troops get free food.
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  #29  
Old 06-24-2008, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Originally Posted by Stormdancer94 View Post
Hmm... Possibly, but one reason I think Hitler might have gone against the Jews was that apparently, he was a vegetarian... Dunno, Jews don't eat meat and such either do they? So... ... Maybe... I have no idea, but still, there'd be some plausible reason, Hitler was pretty bad, but he wasn't stupid.
Lol, you have got to be kidding me. xD So many people eat meat, so it had nothing to do with that. And yes, we eat meat, just not pork.
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  #30  
Old 06-24-2008, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Do you think the Iraq War could be solved without all this fighting?

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Lol, you have got to be kidding me. xD So many people eat meat, so it had nothing to do with that. And yes, we eat meat, just not pork.
Although that hot dog commercial says that you don't eat the rear half of cows either... =/

Anyway, I have to say I like GLaDOS's plan. Kind of a nonviolent method...
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