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  #16  
Old 06-07-2005, 08:51 PM
Incongruity Offline
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohtoTrainer
Tamer, this whole thread you have acted like Palestinians are the only people that lose family members.
But this is only to NPOV the current mindset that.. oh let's say Israelis are the only people that lose family members.


And yes, crime and terrorism are different things. Terrorism obviously is a crime, but it is designed for extortion. It's to cause fear in people so that they don't do something. Of course, this basically means our entire criminal justice system and most religions are based on terror, but let's ignore that.



So let's get to what we all really want. Whose fault is it? Well.... It could be the Palestinians' for not trying harder to separate themselves from terrorist factions.... Or it could be the Israelis' for basically initiating a propaganda movement against all Palestinians (although, at times this is necessary. Hesitation in combat... well, it leads to death. Unfortunately, action before thought leads to death of others... Either way sucks). Trust me, there is massive propaganda. I've got this Jewish friend from Israel. Overall he's a really nice guy. However... when it comes to Palestinians, he just explodes. It's basically an absolute: "1337 Israelis pwn those Palestinian n00bs."

But, can you really blame the Israelis for the propaganda? One cannot make something out of nothing, and the terrorist factions in the Middle-East have given the Western world so much to twist into anti-palestinian sentiment.





Meh, current information and sentiment would characterize Palestinians as terorists. We've simply learned too much negative information from the media to believe that any pro-palestinian news is neutral.

I should start watching BBC
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  #17  
Old 06-07-2005, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Tamer I never said all Palestinians are terrorists. But the Terrorists are killing inncoent people in the name of the palestinian cause. The Palestinians have never stood up and worked against the terrorists. Groups like Hamas are killing people who have done nothing. They have killed Christians and Jews alike.

The terrorists hide and use the Palestinian people as shields. They hide in neighborhoods with many children to make it difficult for Israel to retaliate against them. Yet the Palestinian people dont run them out of there neighborhoods. Or tell the authorities where they hide. Tamer, if you expect peace and an end the the violence then both sides are going to have to work towards the final solution. Its hard for the rest of the world and Israel to make peace agreements with a the Palestinians who are affiliated with groups like Hamas who kill the inncoent and are terrorists.

There is one thing that needs to be stopped if peace is ever going to happen in Israel. The Violence.

If the Suicide Bombing stopped then the retaliation on the areas where the terrorists are hiding would stop.

Last edited by JoshE; 06-07-2005 at 10:35 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-07-2005, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
The terrorists hide and use the Palestinian people as shields. They hide in neighborhoods with many children to make it difficult for Israel to retaliate against them. Yet the Palestinian people dont run them out of there neighborhoods. Or tell the authorities where they hide.
Err, have you ever thought that those "terrorist" are actually Palestinians, and a Palestinian do not use his own brother as a shield. They simply live there, they have houses like every human being. But I am not talking about targeting Terrorrist, this is always the fake excuse for what they want to do, which happened to be killing. I do not believe they destroyed over 60% of gaza's stripe houses just to hunt down terrorists?!

Quote:
If the Suicide Bombing stopped then the retaliation on the areas where the terrorists are hiding would stop.
It has stopped ever since Abu Mazen became a president, have you ever heard of even an attack on an israely soldier inside Gaza or West Bank? Of course not. Well, we stopped violence, even if it MIGHT be temporarly, but Israelies didn't stop, they kept on destroying, killing, invading cities and towns and no one cares to stop them in this whole god damned world for god's sake.
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  #19  
Old 06-07-2005, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

First, Just two weeks ago three militants fired missiles, mortars and assault rifles at the Gaza settlement of Kfar Darom. Hamas said it carried out the attack with the Popular Resistance Committees, a Gaza militant group, and the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent group with ties to Abbas' Fatah party.

Second, Tamer they have not destroyed 60% of the houses. That number is way out of line.

Third, some of the militants are from Syria and Lebanon who have come over to Israel and set up there bases near pre-schools, and populated areas.

Last edited by JoshE; 06-07-2005 at 11:23 PM.
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  #20  
Old 06-07-2005, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Err, I do not believe you mean defending our selves, shooting army is natural in every war, unless you believe this isn't war and Israelies are simply just goofing around playing with us...WITH TANKS AND JETS!!!
Yes we have military groups, but didn't Jew have WORSE groups back in 1948 hagana (Sp?) or something like that, murdered Palestinians by hundreds, isn't that considered terrorism as well, or should we forget the past...and forget the way Israelies came to the land and ripped it off its people...do not talk to me about military attacks and terrorism, because they are BOTh combined in one word: "Israel"

EDIT:
1. Well, yeah, 60% is way much less than the real percentage to be accurate.
2. WTF do we have to do with Syria and lebanon...I stopped believing in Arabic countries ever since they stopped believing in us, and supporting us. Israel, if you haven't noticed too, has land inside of Syria and Lebanon still, and they fight for thier own land, there is nothing to do with us so do not mix things together Josh.
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  #21  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
but didn't Jew have WORSE groups back in 1948 hagana (Sp?) or something like that, murdered Palestinians by hundreds, isn't that considered terrorism
The Hagana was an organization which was the Israeli Armed forces basicly when Israel became a country recondnized by the UN and the next day: Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, and Jordan all attacked it. This group fought back against the army's of these country's Tamer. They never commited terrorist attacks like blowing themselves up in a market place of crowded people Tamer. I think the palestinian people deserve a place that they can call there own Tamer. I just hate Violence and I don't agree with the tactics of orginizations like Hamas.
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Last edited by JoshE; 06-08-2005 at 12:18 AM.
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  #22  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:18 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

They didn't need to blow them selves up, all they had to do is cut a guts of a pregnant woman and take the baby out of her throwing them both to dog. They didn't need to blow them selves because they massacared hundreds and destroyed villages one after another, armed men against poor peasents, armless mostly. I wouldn't have mentioned this group if I wasn't sure of the information Josh.
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  #23  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Can give you give me the facts of this. hard evidence of this happening. because I know of the orginization "hagana".

The Hagana was formed in 1920 as a clandestine force for Jewish self-defense. It was formed because it became common for armed radicalists to attack villages which were occupied by jews and christians. It later became the defense force which protected Israel from the invasions of Arab country refusing to accept Israel's existance in the middle east.

Arab frustration at increased immigration led to the outbreak of bloody riots in April 1920. As fighting continued, The Hagana units defended Jews and Christians who had been attacked by Arabs in these riots and attacks.
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Last edited by JoshE; 06-08-2005 at 12:34 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:38 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Hmmm, interesting, you said it your self, Israely Existance in Middle East. Do you think that this land BELONGS to them at first place? Meh, crap...

Want proof, Massacre of Dier Yassin Village:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.deiryassin.org/index1.html
Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.

In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage.

Part of the struggle for self-determination by Palestinians has been to tell the truth about Palestinians as victims of Zionism. For too long their history has been denied, and this denial has only served to further oppress and deliberately dehumanize Palestinians in Israel, inside the occupied territories, and outside in their diaspora.

Some progress has been made. Westerners now realize that Palestinians, as a people, do exist. And they have come to acknowledge that during the creation of the state of Israel, thousands of Palestinians were killed and over 700,000 were driven or frightened from their homes and lands on which they had lived for centuries.

Deir Yassin Remembered seeks similar progress on behalf of the victims of the Deir Yassin Massacre . . .
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  #25  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

It is not new that Jews are in Israel. The land has been occupied by Jews and Christians alike for over a thousand years.

Unknown to most of the world population, the origin of the "Palestinian" Arabs' claim to the Holy Land spans a period of a meager 30 years - a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of years of the region's rich history.

At the beginning of the 20th century, there were practically no Arabs in the Holy Land. By contrast, the Jews, despite 2000 years of persecution and forced conversions by various conquerors, have always been the majority population there. When General Alenby, the commander of the British military forces, conquered Palestine in 1917/1918, only about 5000 Arabs resided there. Other Muslims in the area either came from Turkey under the Ottoman Empire, or were the descendents of Jews and Christians who were forcefully converted to Islam by the Muslim conquerors. None of these other Muslims were of Arab origin.

The local inhabitants did not call themselves "Palestinians". The concept of a "Palestinian" to describe the local residents has not yet been invented; neither was there ever in history a "Palestinian Arab" nation. None of today's Arabs have any ancestral relationship to the original Biblical Philistines who are now extinct. Even Arab historians have admitted Palestine never existed.

In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: "There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. Palestine is alien to us."

In 1946, Princeton's Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: "It's common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history."

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: "The 'Palestinian people' does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel."

The Arabs who now claim to be natives of the Holy Land have migrated to Palestine after 1918, from neighboring Arab countries, predominantly from areas now known as Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. None of these countries existed as nations prior to 1913. They were nothing but a disorganized collection of tribes, constantly terrorizing each other, trying to seize land from their neighbors. Unfortunately, those Arab immigrants, imported into the Holy Land their age-old culture of terrorizing neighbors to seize land. Many of them were social outcasts and criminals who could not find jobs in their own countries so they searched for their luck elsewhere. Some of them were accepted by the British regime as a source of cheap labor and were allowed to settle on unoccupied Jewish land in Palestine. Even Yassir Arafat, the leader of the PLO, is not a native of the Holy Land. He was born in 1929 in Cairo, Egypt. He served in the Egyptian army, studied in the University of Cairo, and lived in Cairo until 1956. He then moved to Saudi-Arabia and founded the Al-Fatah terror organization, the precursor to the PLO, in Kuwait in 1958, together with his Saudi-Arabian friends.

The governor of the Syrian district of Hauran, Tewfik Bey El Hurani, admitted in 1934 that in a single period of only a few months over 30,000 Syrians from Hauran had moved to Palestine. Even British Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted the Arab influx. Churchill, a veteran of the early years of the British mandate in the Holy Land, noted in 1939 that “far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied.”

The grandparents of the author's wife were born in the Holy Land in the 19th century. They saw with their own eyes how empty the land was at the time. They also lived through and experienced first-hand the British conquest and the Arab immigration that followed. This immigration ended in 1948 with the evacuation of the British from the land and the declaration of the state of Israel.

In their propaganda, the Arabs who now call themselves "Palestinians" consistently demand that Israel and the world recognize their pre-1948 rights. That's about 54 years ago. Mysteriously, they are never willing to add another 54 years to their "historical" claims on the Holy Land. They know very well that doing so will send them back to where they came from - Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. Years ago, during negotiations with the, so-called, Palestinians, someone in Israel proposed to revise a mention of their claim to pre-1948 rights and replace it with pre-1917. The "Palestinians" vehemently opposed. Now we know why.

The Muslim religion was invented by Muhammad in the 7th century AD, in Saudi Arabia. He never visited Jerusalem and the Holy Land, and did not consider it important enough to be mentioned in the Koran even once. By comparison, the land of the Jewish Holy Temple in Jerusalem was purchased by King David, for the Jewish people, approximately 850 years BCE, and the deed, the name of the previous owner, and the purchase price were recorded in the Bible (See Samuel II Ch. 24 and Chronicles I Ch. 21).

The best reference for understanding the Muslim-Arab mentality and politicaly-motivated distortion of history is Muhammad's own words in the Koran: "War is deception".

Today the Muslim "Palestinians" claim to own Temple Mount, the site of the Jewish Holy Temple in Jerusalem. They claim it is "their" holy site. Does anyone in the rest of the world know which way the Muslims in Jerusalem face when they pray? When the Muslims in Jerusalem pray in their mosques, even in the "Al Aktza" mosque built on the edge of Temple Mount, they actually stand with their back turned to Temple Mount. And, when they bow down in their prayers they show their behind to Temple Mount. How consistent is that with considering it a holy site? Visit any mosque in Jerusalem to see it for yourself. The fact is that Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Koran, while Mecca and Medina, the only two Muslim holy cities, are mentioned hundreds of times.

The Jewish Holy Temple stood on Temple Mount long before the Muslim religion, or any other current world religion was conceived. Even when the founders of the Christian religion walked around in the streets of ancient Jerusalem there were no mosques nor churches there - only the Jewish Holy Temple and nothing else.

I still belive though the "Palestinian" people have had a rough history and deserve there own country. The Fighting though must stop.. If the fighting does not stop soon from both sides the land and the politics won't matter when they see the bloodshed of Muslim and Jewish... who really are brothers coming from Arbraham. Both sides have cmmited atrocity's. We should both agree that Violence is never the awnser.
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Last edited by JoshE; 06-08-2005 at 12:55 AM.
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  #26  
Old 06-08-2005, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshE
In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: "The 'Palestinian people' does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel."
Zahir Muhsein is a ba'thist, he does believe in Extreme arab nationality and unity and doesn't believe at first place in differant arab nationalities such as palestinians, jordanians, Syrians or any other this explains what he said, it means nothing to the cause to be frank and has nothing related to the subject since his words are bull.

Well, to be honest, I am impressed by the ammount of information you posses Josh and i thank you for discussing such an important subject with me. Actually, I haven't read this all, but Jews...1000 years...you actually made me laugh here. Jews, as a people, existed only after the exile(Sp?) 570BC. before that they were the Hebrews who were seperated into several tribes in which the Jews were as one of the tribes. The only united Kingdom the ruled in this land for the Hebrews did not last for more than 100year and ended with King Solomon. Then they returned, all through the time they lived with other people like Cannanites were always there, even when the Hebrews rules. Philisties were also there at the same and when the Hebrew were exiled to Babilon these stayed and didn't leave at all. And when the jews came back, they were still there with Arab tribesespecially in Jerusalem, an all were ruled by Greeks and then the Romans and then the Arabs, even Herod the great and his dynesty were not Jews although they were called king of the jews they were Edomites that refused to be circumcised, and they were refused by the Jews them selves. Herod was the great builder of Jerusalem, the builder of the greatest temple in Jerusalem that the jews claim to be thier own although others worshiped in the same temple because Jersualem was open to all races lived in the area.

All what you hear is just a great myth made by the biblical archeologists who tried to fake history and ruin some archeological findings so that what would remain would fit the bible instead of looking for what is true. The greatest of these liars the famous Olbriet, the most famou of these biblical archeologists. And when Kathleen Kenyon one of the greatest scientific archeologists, destroyed thier myths by scientific findings they waged an unholy war against her in the name of Christianity and the Bible.
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2005, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

The Hebrews and the "jewish faith" are basicly the same thing Tamer.

Anyway...

Both of our opinions are really just beliefs that we hold from different books that were written back many years... You ahve your very strong beliefs on Israel and who resided there while I have mine. We each have our own very strong opinions on Israel, and the many different cultures in the area. I think we can both agree each side has had it people who have wanted peace and its people who have tried to ruin the process. I'm glad I was able to hold an intellectual discussion on this subject with you Tamer. I hope that because I have a different opinion on this matter than you doesn't mean we can't speak about other political issues... I enjoyed this debate.

~Josh
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Last edited by JoshE; 06-08-2005 at 02:34 AM.
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  #28  
Old 06-23-2005, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Pictures Speak

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  #29  
Old 06-23-2005, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamer San
Pictures Speak

Unfortunately, broken pictures don't speak. Just me? or not loading


Maybe because the tag isn't a picture one
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  #30  
Old 05-09-2006, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssk1911
Unfortunately, broken pictures don't speak. Just me? or not loading


Maybe because the tag isn't a picture one
Sorry for reviving the thread...here is the picture I wanted you all to see before.

WARNING: NOT FOR THE FAINT AND WEAK IN HEART!









Please, comment, and be true to your selves...
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