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  #1  
Old 05-09-2005, 08:18 AM
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Default Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

This is a topic never discussed before, a topic that is a must to know and understand clearly. The internation news networks such as CNN and BBC never shows a clear view, it is rather a blur one instead about the truth of what Palestinians really are. Yes, I know I am a Palestinian, and my point-of-view will be as hard as rock to change, and I will debate as a one sided, yet, I am convinced with our cause. I will start debatting and replying at your debating as soon as you start discussing. The question that is presented here, is: "Do you consider Palestinians Freedom Fighters or Terrorists, and why?" My answer would be "Freedom Fighters" at the moment with no comment, until I see what you think. I won't hold grunge against anyone in here against our cause, because politics is one thing, and my friendship to you guys is a complete differant thing. If you don't have enough background about the subject, please do not debate with us, and if you are weak in heart, please do not view images and pictures I might post in the future. I will bring facts from differant sources, Palestinian, Israely and even a neutral side.

Now you may discuss...
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

I am a little cloudy on the issue, as our news here on the issue is somewhat lacking, but I believe the Palestinians to be freedom fighters. To my knowledge, Israel is surpressing Palestinians and has been for a number of years. Obviously I do not know as much about any of this as Tamer, or Severance, both of whom are from Palestine, but I would like to learn more about the situation in Palestine.
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Old 05-09-2005, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Palestine are the freedom fighters because they let Israel stay in their country and even gave them half of their land. But the Israels wanted more so they started invading the palestine half becasue they wanted to rule the whole country.

I read that in social studies. :P

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Old 05-09-2005, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Interesting, though not 100% correct DL. I guess it is about time for me to post some historical facts about the struggle so you people can understand more clearly and debate on bases. During the second world war, a British lored named Belfor(Sp?) has given a promise to Jews of a free country for them in the land of Palestine. The factors for such a promise were that Jews has baught all the war's documents from British because they needed money, and because of some new inventions and creations in weapons done by a Jew (I forgot his name) were given to British cheaply and to make a pressure on Staline from the Jews in Russia to fight in this war. Of course, Palestine at that time was a Britishi colony, given to British due to the agreement of Saiks-Peeco (Not sure how it is spelled in english, but thats the name). Anyway, after the end of the war, British allowed jews to imegrate to the land of Palestine and they were welcomed at some parts and not welcomed at other parts. Zionists started to kill us just to...make us vanish from excistance, masacers were done such as Der Yaseen and many others. And in 1948, British withdrew its forces from Palestine and gave power to Zionists to form the country of Palestine, at that time, we were weak, untrained, while Jews were training all the years and making an army in secret and with knowledge and agreement of the British. Anyway, arabs had to fight instead of us, and they lost...

Thats the story of creation of the country named Israel. But during that time, Israelies wanted to occupy more, and we wanted to get back what was ours in the past. And many wars happened, and many palestinian forces were formed such as Fateh (PLM, Palestinian Leberation Movement) and PLO (Palestinian Leberation Organization). In 1967 Israelies decided to take over the West Bank and Gaza Stripe, and in shame, arabs lost again to israelies in 6 days only. And ever since, we have been fighting...so, do you think it is our right to fight? or should we simply shut up and hold our selves while Israelies kill us every single day?!

This is not the entire story, but a short view of what happaned...
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Old 05-10-2005, 02:43 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

eh well Tamer, thats a good explanation, but slightly biased. i do not claim to have any formal training on this matter except a brief brush of it in my ap US History and AP european History classes, but I can give my perspective on it.

The jews were given a homeland for all of the reasosn tamer said, thats at least partially accurate. But more so to alleviate Europe of its Jewish population, to attone for the horrors of the holocaust and to in a sense get rid of the Jews to ease european confilcts and tension in a post war environment.

When the Jews arrived in their new homeland, they were met with palestinian resisteance, rather understandable I think. they answered palestininian violence with violence of their own. Massacres came from both sides, the Jews didnt just march into their new land and start killing people, sorry but it didnt work that way. both sides should be held accountable for that.

When the British left the Jews had absolutely no support, they were surronded by belligerent nations. The egyptians sure as hell were ready to get rid of them as were other neighboring arab nations. The US supplied the jews with weapons and training in order to help support what they saw as a friendly arabic nation among potential enemies.

The Jewish conflict has somewhat eased, IMO, after the 6 days war, which btw was a bad move on the part of Israel. Terrorist groups, and thats what i think they are, have only escalated the situation, making the Israelis feel they need more protection and thus increasing militarily and making the palestinians look worse on the international level.

dont get me wrong, the palestinians deserve a homeland, but by using terror tactics it only hinders their efforts. Why should any other nation take the palestinians seriously if they have to resort to suicide bombing? In order to gain consenus sometimes nations need to reconsider their methodologies...
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Old 05-10-2005, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

1. Yes, Jews suffered a lot in Europe, they had to move to a country of thier own, but would it be fair enough for Palestinians to suffer and vanish so Jews can have thier own country? What is the point of freeing Jews from opretion if they did same to others?

2. Israelies did masacers, killing innocent old men and women, children and pregnant women. (I can get you some pictures of some masacers if you want). Beside, Palestinians didn't kill innocent Israelies, not back at that time at least, they didn't have the power to fight back before 1967 when Fateh was formed with brutal force and an army to fight back, and Fateh only fought and targeted military targets.

3. And about using..."violence"...in claiming our rights, isn't that what German did to gain freedom from French and Austria at the times of Besmark(Sp?). Didn't Americans fight British for the United States of America? Didn't Algerians fight French, with support of the entire internation society (Exact same situation as ours)? Didn't every nation fight for freedom? Scotch faught for freedom 600 years ago...and have you noticed that only the opposite side of the struggle, the "good side" such as Israelies and British (In US freedom war), blame the "bad side" with terrorism such as us palestinians and Colonists?
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Old 05-11-2005, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

1. no, its not right that the Palestinians had to forfeit their lives and property because of the jews. the ways in which the British brought about the Jewish Nation state was poor at best and murder at the worst. Im not arguing that it was okay, or that it was done correctly.

2. hmm, well both sides were responsible for war crimes, I still maintain that much. You have photos, and Im sure I can produce some as well.

3. Were the palestinians indigenous to that area? I really doubt it, history Ties the Jews to that region as well as other sub groups. By your standards every major country would have to be broken up so its original inhabitants could return. British had hegemony at that time over palestine, and they could do with at as they peased. sorry, but its the truth.
And no Germany(or prussia) during the Time of Bismarck was an independent nation, and allied with the austrians. But thats despite the point...

Im not ignorant, I know how the world works and you should too. Peoples perceptions differ from situation to situation. In this situation western media shows the palestinians bombing schools, killing civillians and what not. I know the isrealis did the same thing, but don't be ignorant, dont deny that the palestinians ands other arab nations have done the exact same thing.

Let me clarify my point. Both sides have commited war crimes, neither one is innocent. The jews were brought to Israel in a non condusive manner, but the situation might have resolved it self better if A) Britain had done a better job transitioning B) The Jews werent met with strong resistance and C) The Jewish nation had not been so adamant and imperialistic.

Both sides have faulted, both are guilty. The British had control of that land, and it was basically theirs to with as they pleased. The palestinians had no say in the matter, Violence isnt going to get them their land back, Israel has too much western support, that oppurtunity has passed. They have to try and make the best of it, and work politically not violently.
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Old 05-12-2005, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamer San
3. And about using..."violence"...in claiming our rights, isn't that what German did to gain freedom from French and Austria at the times of Besmark(Sp?). Didn't Americans fight British for the United States of America? Didn't Algerians fight French, with support of the entire internation society (Exact same situation as ours)? Didn't every nation fight for freedom? Scotch faught for freedom 600 years ago...and have you noticed that only the opposite side of the struggle, the "good side" such as Israelies and British (In US freedom war), blame the "bad side" with terrorism such as us palestinians and Colonists?
Eh, Tamer that's not exactly a vaild point. We fought in a WAR, we didn't suicide bomb innocent British people.

Tamer, suicide bombing is not going to gain you respect around the world. Thats why Israel has alot of Western support. Mainly, because America's main fear is being suicide bombed.

I realize that Palestinians are supressed and want there own country. But they need to realize that walking into a restaraunt, and blowing themselves up, killing innocent people isn't the way to do it.
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Old 05-12-2005, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

While I believe our modern Western society is very anti-Muslim, and has a high bias against anything related to Islam, I must admit that the Muslims (as a whole, not just Palestinians) are being very poorly represented. Indeed, much of what we know is from the large propaganda machine to show that Israel is great and Palestinians suck, but come on, the Arab population seriously needs to prove itself.

And anyway, few people if any have neutral knowledge on this matter. It's biased either way. It is simply that in places like the United States where there is a high population of Jews, the pro-Israeli stance is considered neutral with extreme Zionists being biased, and pro-Arab being a pure taboo.


And about the whole WWI/Zionist/WWII thing.... There are two views to this. either
  • Zionists that were very radical in Germany were in action during WWI. They had connections in the U.S. and offered Britain to get the U.S. into the war in exchange for Palestine. Remember, at this time, the U.S. was still very pro-Germany (or to put it another way, anti-Russian). After the war, the Germans realized they had been tricked. They'd basically been betrayed, and a war had been fought to give the Jews a homeland. Therefore, there was massive anti-semitic fervor. Not because of beliefs, but because of what had been done.
  • The United States had to get involved in the war to prevent the spread of a major power. The reason the pro-German sentiment was reversed was because of the Russian Revolution. After the Germans lost WWI, they were annoyed at how it ended, and needed a scapegoat. They chose the Jews, the gays, the gypsies, etc.

No matter what is correct or incorrect, the Palestinian population needs to send out a better message to the world. It doesn't matter if they are in the right, and the Israelis are in the wrong. Like in Training Day, "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."
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Old 05-12-2005, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

1. I never said that Palestinians didn't make mistakes, I agree that bombing resturants is criminal actions. Those whom bomb thier selves are mostly from Hamas or Al-Jihad, two organizations never faught for freedom when Fateh was fighting and targetting military facilities. Two organizations get thier weapons from Israel because they were ARMED to create an inner war between Palestinians and to destroy the current leadership that Fateh has. Hamas and Al-Jihad are two terrorist organization, not internationally, but in here I mean, and they were both armed by Israel to make a civil war but failed since the Intifada has begun and they both had to fight Israel to keep water face. So, points I am issuing here are:
  1. Hamas and Al-Jihad are ready to do anything to destroy any peace procces because if peace happaned they won't have anything to fight for and talk about any more because they are not political parties but a militia to be more accurate.
  1. They were both given arms by Israel in order to revolt on the current Authority led by Fateh and Abu-Amar (Before he died) so I guess Israel should take some of the blame on arming the enemy being irreponssible at all.
  1. Have you ever noticed that every organization FIGHTING for Islam is actually terrorist, and can't handle the truth? Well that's the same, Hamas and Al-Jihad claim the fight for Islam and to free Al-Quds (Jerusalem) from Jews. They are biased, hating Jews as a religious which is extremely wrong, hating all the western sociaty which is also wrong because we have great suppot in both USA and Europe.
  1. Yes, I know we did mistakes, and we sometimes killed innocent peoples and armless one but there are two points to add here: The first is that there is no civilians in Israel, everyone over 16 is actually a soldier and it is a fact. And the second thing is, for god's sake, you only see our mistakes and have never seen massacers Israelies did to Palestinians before 1948, in 1948, before 1967, in 1967 and all the years following even in the First Intifadah in 1986 and even in Lebanon in 1982...they killed civilians too, which triggers young men to suicide for the death of a father, mother, brother and dear friend...imagin the feeling your self JT.

2. Well proving is a problem here SK. Israelies has controle over media in the world, a jewish owns the CNN I believe so he won't give quite a clear vision of what is really going on here in the lands. And yes, I do agree with you, Arabs should try to stand on thier feets to prove them selves, and i know that arab sucks. We were supposed to be one nation, but they gave up on us and they don't want to help us any more. You know that if Saudi Arabia reduced petrolium production by just 10%, there will be a crisis because they have done it before and it was effective. But no, arabs aren't willing to help us anymore, we are all alone in here, trying to create a country on a no-land...we are simply trying to rebirth from ashes...we have democracy, and the last election proved it to the world. We are the most democrate country amongst the arabs and for that they envy us, we just need freedom and land and we'll be fine.

EDIT: Oh god, I wish I would know how to figure the numerical listing thing out >_>
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  #11  
Old 06-05-2005, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Hi guys I was just reading some stuff and I saw this topic and I had to go on and reply.

I might be very biased but I think I am for good reason. One of my fathers best friends is a Christian who lives in Israel. He was sitting in a cafe drinking a coffee when all of a sudden a Palestinian man walks in and blows himself up taking my fathers best friends life and 23 others. Including a mother and her 4 and 6 year old children. If the Palestinians want there own country I can see that.... yet I have a hard time seeing how they deserve it by killing inncoent people like my fathers good friend. Its a very touchy subject but I really think that the Palestinian people as a whole need to stand up to terrorist groups like "hamas" and say we don't like your terror. Stop killing innocent Israeli's. Jews or Christians. The Palestinian people have not stood up as a whole and said this to these groups and until these people stop fighting for the palestinian cause by killing inncoent people than I don't think you will get your own country. Peace needs to happen and whenever hamas killed inncoent people they are pushing the palestinian people as a whole farther away from peace. Palestinians need to stand up already and tell these terrorists that they as a people wont stand for these attacks any longer on the inncoent. If the palestinians did this and helped defeat the terrorists then I would be very confident that a Palestinian country would be formed. Until then Violence will be responded by violence and nothing but death and tears will be formed in the Holy Land.
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Uhhh.... they can be considered both ya know... I believe that they are freedom fighters, but they are using the wrong method (through acts of terror, and self-annihaltion) of achieving so.

I chuckle when I see people make reference to palastinians being terrorists... not every one of the palestinian population is comprised of terrorists... is Tamer one? I highly doubt it... so stop calling the population as a whole that... cause I assure you, the people as a whole is not. Only the radicals who believe that blowing them selves up and taking down inncoent bystanders with them to achieve their goal are terrorists... stop being so ignorant...

Only through negotiations could we find a solution to the problem... I don't understand why it had to resort to violence... it just angers me to see that the world has to resort to war and violence to get their way... have we not learned that fighting never produces a distince winner?
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Old 06-07-2005, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshE
Hi guys I was just reading some stuff and I saw this topic and I had to go on and reply.

I might be very biased but I think I am for good reason. One of my fathers best friends is a Christian who lives in Israel. He was sitting in a cafe drinking a coffee when all of a sudden a Palestinian man walks in and blows himself up taking my fathers best friends life and 23 others. Including a mother and her 4 and 6 year old children. If the Palestinians want there own country I can see that.... yet I have a hard time seeing how they deserve it by killing inncoent people like my fathers good friend. Its a very touchy subject but I really think that the Palestinian people as a whole need to stand up to terrorist groups like "hamas" and say we don't like your terror. Stop killing innocent Israeli's. Jews or Christians. The Palestinian people have not stood up as a whole and said this to these groups and until these people stop fighting for the palestinian cause by killing inncoent people than I don't think you will get your own country. Peace needs to happen and whenever hamas killed inncoent people they are pushing the palestinian people as a whole farther away from peace. Palestinians need to stand up already and tell these terrorists that they as a people wont stand for these attacks any longer on the inncoent. If the palestinians did this and helped defeat the terrorists then I would be very confident that a Palestinian country would be formed. Until then Violence will be responded by violence and nothing but death and tears will be formed in the Holy Land.
Actially, I have some points to point out here. First of all, have you ever asked your self why would someone go and blow him self? Have you ever lost a father, an older or a younger brother, a best friend, it could even be your sister or mother by mistake as well, an infant in a cradle, simply blown out by Israely missiles, or thier house got demolished in an instant for no reason in Gaza stripe and even in the West Bank. Second of all, I know that the method is wrong, but we have tried negotiating, Yasser Arafat, the one you always accuse of terrorism and supporting terror was the only brave man, standing even against the will of his people of fighting and negotiating because he believed in a cause, he believed in peace, whatever the method is. Do not start blaming bombers for bombing them selves, they do not have a family anymore, they do not even have a land, and they were forced to fight for it. Third of all, there are BARELY any inoccent people, every single israely is a soldier in the army, and I guess you would know that already. But again, I say the method is wrong, I agree on bombing and military operations, as long as the target is an army, in our own lands, not in "Israel".

Matthew, we have tried negotiating, hell we tried. Israelies always find a problem, always want to force thier own rules into the papers, they want settlements to stay, they wan us an armyless country, they want us not to control our country's boarders or air space. I don't believe this is any future country...beside, when there is a peace proccess they either kill, destroy houses or do something just to trigger us Palestinian to fight so world would say "OMFG, look at them bombing...". Anyway, there hasnt been any bombings last 6 months, so I guess we are fine, and we are doing our part of the agreements, but Israelies aren't. Today, one of the Parlemtn of Israel (Kennesit (Sp?)) simply said, annihalte all Palestinains from Gaza Stripe...is this logical, is this peacefull...hell no, this is a country's terrorism...

And yeah, I am not a terrorist
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Old 06-07-2005, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamer San
Actially, I have some points to point out here. First of all, have you ever asked your self why would someone go and blow him self? Have you ever lost a father, an older or a younger brother, a best friend, it could even be your sister or mother by mistake as well, an infant in a cradle, simply blown out by Israely missiles, or thier house got demolished in an instant for no reason in Gaza stripe and even in the West Bank. Second of all, I know that the method is wrong, but we have tried negotiating, Yasser Arafat, the one you always accuse of terrorism and supporting terror was the only brave man, standing even against the will of his people of fighting and negotiating because he believed in a cause, he believed in peace, whatever the method is. Do not start blaming bombers for bombing them selves, they do not have a family anymore, they do not even have a land, and they were forced to fight for it. Third of all, there are BARELY any inoccent people, every single israely is a soldier in the army, and I guess you would know that already. But again, I say the method is wrong, I agree on bombing and military operations, as long as the target is an army, in our own lands, not in "Israel".

Matthew, we have tried negotiating, hell we tried. Israelies always find a problem, always want to force thier own rules into the papers, they want settlements to stay, they wan us an armyless country, they want us not to control our country's boarders or air space. I don't believe this is any future country...beside, when there is a peace proccess they either kill, destroy houses or do something just to trigger us Palestinian to fight so world would say "OMFG, look at them bombing...". Anyway, there hasnt been any bombings last 6 months, so I guess we are fine, and we are doing our part of the agreements, but Israelies aren't. Today, one of the Parlemtn of Israel (Kennesit (Sp?)) simply said, annihalte all Palestinains from Gaza Stripe...is this logical, is this peacefull...hell no, this is a country's terrorism...

And yeah, I am not a terrorist
Tamer, this whole thread you have acted like Palestinians are the only people that lose family members. My Aunt was killed in convenient store. She was working behind the register when someone pointed a gun at her and asked for the money. She never thought twice, she's not stupid there's a man pointing a gun at her. She handed over $250 the man walked to the door turned around and shot her. Would you like to tell me WHY this happened?

My friend was walking down the street. Some guy in a gang walked past him and stabbed him in the stomach. You want to tell me why my 12 year old friend was stabbed by 21 year old gang member and broad day light? No you can't nobody can.

You don't see me going to where the burglar is and blowing myself up. You don't see me going to where the gang hangs out and blowing myself up.

Tamer, the Palestinians are killing the wrong people. They are killing INNOCENT people. Not the people that killed their family members. They're killing people that are just trying to eat at a restraunt. So tell me why you are making excuses for murderers?
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Old 06-07-2005, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?!

In USA, crime and terrorism are completely a differant thing. Do not tell me about gangster and criminles, you Americans brought that to your self. I am not justifying what we are doing, because actually it wrong, and it is only done by two groups if you have ever noticed. Hammas and Aljihad only do bombing attacks in Israel its self, while most of other if not all parties do this bombing, and sometime even assassining (Snipers) against Soldiers working INSIDE Gaza and West Bank, or Settlers also taking over OUR land in Gaza and West Bank.

Beside, you do not have the guts, nerves, courage (I am not saying blowing people up is courageous, but the concept of beeing blown up is). Amercians, with no offense, are pittyful cowards in a way or another. They have never suffered the way we did, you are not the one whom has been suffering past 60 years just to live peacefully. Again, I am not justifying anything, I am just clearing things up.

12 years is old here, think of infants, in cradles, with a missiles shot into their bed rooms as they were sleeping, shot from a hellicopter, I bet it would be more painful this way, and more...criminal...do not speak JT about kids being killed, because we here have MANY of them dying everyday, in broad day light, with no one to protect us, no one to speak up for us, while you at least have Police Forces, FBI, and such to solve such cases and criminals always gets thier penelty, in our case, the criminal do not get his penelty, why our innocent children must suffer while thier doesn't have to? This is a question EVEN I ask my self...
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