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Fourth Generation Discuss the fourth generation Pokemon games: Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, HeartGold and SoulSilver.


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  #31  
Old 01-28-2008, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

So you want all battles to go like this:

Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Substitute!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!

Until one of them hits and if it's Garchomp, proceeds to rape the opponent's team with no way to stop it.

Remember Garchomp gets an effective +8 evasion with Sand Veil and Brightpowder!

Last edited by shedinjask; 01-28-2008 at 11:03 PM.
  #32  
Old 01-28-2008, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedinjask View Post
So you want all battles to go like this:

Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Substitute!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!

Until one of them hits and if it's Garchomp, proceeds to rape the opponent's team with no way to stop it.

Remember Garchomp gets an effective +8 evasion with Sand Veil and Brightpowder!
And like I said, it turns into a 2 hour miss frenzey. The only way I see DT in the game is if you let one pokemon have DT or in the next games they turn it into the stat. If that second one happens, people will start freaking out.
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  #33  
Old 01-29-2008, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Seriously, am I wasting my time posting.. does anyone actually read?

Quote:
To summarize...

1. While Evasiveness is being raised, you or your opponent also receive a turn each time. (Duh? But this seems to be the most overlooked concept..)
Raising Evasiveness takes time.. 6 turns to be exact if you want to reach stage 6 (max). Also it's good to note, for the first 2 Stages of Evasiveness you would still have a higher chance of hitting them than them evading your attack. For someone who keeps saying how important a missed turn is.. you seem to neglect that to raise Evasiveness allows the opponent or yourself X number of turns to do something were your opponent has essentially sacrificed attacking you or raising any stats or anything... in order to raise Evasiveness by X number of stages.

Quote:
2. Stat Growth Effectiveness is faster than Evasiveness Growth Effectiveness (even on a 1:1 ratio)

Accuracy vs Stat Mod
1 Stage = 75% vs 150% (Accuracy odds still in your favour)
2 Stage = 60% vs 200% (Accuracy odds still in your favour)
3 Stage = 50% vs 250% (Accuracy odds favours no one)
4 Stage = 43% vs 300% (Accuracy odds in their favour, but note the steep Evasiveness rate drop)
5 Stage = 38% vs 350%
6 Stage = 33% vs 400%

3. Stat Modifiers used by most people raise or lower either 2 Stages in 1 Stat alone or 1 Stage in 2 Stats. Evasiveness can only be raised 1 Stage per turn.
This means, by the time a pokemon using Double Team has reached Stage 3 Evasiveness (50% Accuracy) your pokemon could have raised 400% ATK/SpATK/DEF/SpDEF/SPD or lowered your opponent's pokemon by 400% ATK/SpATK/DEF/SpDEF/SPD or raised 250% in pretty much any 2 Stats of your choice or lowered 250% in pretty much any 2 Stats of your opponent's pokemon of your choice.

ie
Pokemon 1 uses Double Team!
- Pokemon 1 Evasiveness rises! (Stage 1 Evasiveness)

Pokemon 2 uses Swords Dance!
- Pokemon 2 ATK sharply rises! (Stage 2 ATK)

Pokemon 1 uses Double Team!
- Pokemon 1 Evasiveness rises! (Stage 2 Evasiveness)

Pokemon 2 uses Swords Dance!
- Pokemon 2 ATK sharply rises! (Stage 4 ATK)

Pokemon 1 uses Double Team!
- Pokemon 1 Evasiveness rises! (Stage 3 Evasiveness)

Pokemon 2 uses Swords Dance!
- Pokemon 2 ATK sharply rises! (Stage 6 ATK)

Pokemon 1 with Stage 3 Evasiveness can has an evasiveness of 50%.

Pokemon 2 with Stage 6 ATK does 400% ATK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedinjask View Post
So you want all battles to go like this:

Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Double Team!
Cresselia used Double Team!
Garchomp used Substitute!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!
Garchomp used Swords Dance!
Cresselia used Ice Beam! It missed!

Until one of them hits and if it's Garchomp, proceeds to rape the opponent's team with no way to stop it.
It for sure doesn't have to be a mirror match like you've suggested. I have never suggested so I'd rather you not keep feeding bad examples and trying to say that I suggested it. I stated that if your opponent wants to counter your Double Team useage with Double Team themselves then they should be more than free to.

As I've stated before and someone else did to, there are a variety of moves and pokemon abilities not used because there hasn't been a need to. Moves that never miss, abilities that never miss or increase accuracy, other strategies..

Quote:
Remember Garchomp gets an effective +8 evasion with Sand Veil and Brightpowder!
I have no idea how Evasion gets raised by Sand Veil. Is it every turn +1 Evasion and keeps adding +1 or is it just +1 Evasion the entire sandstorm? And do the effects disappear with sandstorm when it ends? However, I do know that you need to use Sandstorm in order for Garchomp's ability to work so there's 1 turn used already. And the max limit for raising Evasiveness is 6 stages. There is no such thing as 8 Stages... Correct me if I'm wrong. Bright Powder lowers accuracy by 1 Stage.

So if you managed to raise evasiveness 6 stages (6 turns) and your Pokemon were holding Bright Powder that would be,

Evasiveness % x Accuracy %
= Stage 6 Evasiveness % x Stage 1 Accuracy %
= 33% x 75%
= 24.75%

Mind you, that requires you to use 6 turns and use up your held item slot.

I'm really new at pokemon as I've yet to even breed my own competitive pokemon. I only recently stumbled upon the rules page and found these rules against Evasion to be rather limitting. It's no wonder that everyone seems to use the same pokemon and quite funny when people keep continually asking others to rate the same over-used pokemon over and over...

As bad as the anime is, it'd be nice to see our pokemon dodge some attacks instead of just standing there like statues.

ray
  #34  
Old 01-29-2008, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

You know Ray, I totally agree with your post. I mean, who is going to sit there wasting turns while the opponent sets up DT or Minimize? There are still chances to KO the poke before it has a chance to either BP or even set up anything else, even chances to stop them from setting up. A smart competitive battler would diffuse the situation before it came to something like that. The only time that it will wreak havoc to some one is they are completely caught off guard by it. Such as some one forgetting to put a Rapid Spinner on their team and get caught with Spikes and SR combo.
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  #35  
Old 01-29-2008, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Wtf is Rapid Spin? lol

*Serbii's it*

Ohhhh.. lol, I getcha ^^

Yeah, I just don't get these ridiculous examples. 2 hrs to kill a pokemon?! At Stage 6 Evasiveness it's still only 33% Accuracy..

That means you have a 1 in 3 chance of landing a hit if you really did allow your oppenent the luxury of 6 turns to do Double Team for 6 times. Now, not to fall into the Gambler's Fallacy that, "Oh, if I missed 2 times.. the 3rd hit should land!" but golly gee whiz, Batman. If it really takes you 2 hrs to land a hit.. that's some real bad luck you got there or your opponent or you went afk.

But think about it this way, your opponent just used a 6 turn move to increase Evasiveness so he can dodge on average 2 out of 3 your attacks. 6 turns people...

Raising Evasiveness takes so much time.. I really just don't get how people see it as being rigged. YES, your strategy for all your 100 ACC moves might not land 100% of the time. I think that's the thing most people here are worried about. It'd totally mess up their game.

Btw, I read that the move Psych Up works on copying Evasiveness modifiers...

ray
  #36  
Old 01-29-2008, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

If anything, the battle will be prolonged just a bit longer. Even then, who would be dumb enough to let some one set it up. I mean honestly! Are these people not giving themselves enough credit to dismantle that combo? They do so to everything else! What makes it so different with DT? It's like this...

Pokemon 1 - Double Team
Pokemon 2 - Taunt
Pokemon 1- Switches
Pokemon 2 - Free Move

The situation was diffused before the problem could arise. I think people don't want to use it because they feel it's broken / Cheap and that it's going to turn into an extremely long battle. Yes, if they they both allow it to happen! Other then that, the battle will end rather quickly. I also believe even if your Evasion has been maxed out. You've also increased your chances to be hit by a Critical hit. Making your Pokemon that much more fragile.
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  #37  
Old 01-29-2008, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

If you let someone set up an abnormal amount of evasion, you deserve it. Just like how you don't let a Infernape Nasty Plot 3 times or let Gyarados Dragon Dance 6 times. Sorry if I'm repeating something already said. Haze and Taunt still exist along with Roar and Whirlwind, which both suffer minor accuracy lost if you don't let your opponent set up.

Some people are experimenting in this new DP generation and allow it every once in a while. DP brings on an onslaught of new powerful moves and Pokemon are just hitting harder than before. Relying on one or two Double Teams will not help you last long. Generally, Double Team is a waste a move slot. I can only see it being abused on Baton Pass teams, but those usually require the opposing team to make a mistake of letting you setup.

Last edited by Sigma_; 01-29-2008 at 05:27 AM.
  #38  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma_ View Post
If you let someone set up an abnormal amount of evasion, you deserve it. Just like how you don't let a Infernape Nasty Plot 3 times or let Gyarados Dragon Dance 6 times. Sorry if I'm repeating something already said. Haze and Taunt still exist along with Roar and Whirlwind, which both suffer minor accuracy lost if you don't let your opponent set up.

Some people are experimenting in this new DP generation and allow it every once in a while. DP brings on an onslaught of new powerful moves and Pokemon are just hitting harder than before. Relying on one or two Double Teams will not help you last long. Generally, Double Team is a waste a move slot. I can only see it being abused on Baton Pass teams, but those usually require the opposing team to make a mistake of letting you setup.
I agree that at some point it should be considered for testing, but comparing it to Nasty Plot and Dragon Dance is irrelevant, simply by the way that the Evasion stat functions. Stopping Nasty Plot or DD set ups is as easy as sending in an opposing Pokemon who can threaten with a SE attack, IE: Starmie for Infernape. Stopping someone using Double Team isn't quite as easy.
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  #39  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Finally, some support and love!

Seriously though, this has alot to do with some very basic math and even more basic logic. I just really don't see how evasiveness is some rigged mechanic of the game that everyone here is afraid of.

- it takes 6 turns to raise evasiveness to 33% accuracy
- evasiveness is not 33% for all those 6 turns, instead it starts with 75% acc, 60% acc, 50% acc, 43%, 38%, 33%... Even though you've lost some accuracy, the first 2 double teams/minimize are within your favour still.

If you really want your opponent to dodge most of your attacks, then allow them to Double Team you 6 times like most of you apparently let them do already.. AND THEN let them Flash you 6 times as well.

The move accuracy is then calculated as,

Pokemon Total Accuracy
= [Users Accuracy %] x [Opponent's Evasiveness %]
= [Stage 6 Flash or Sand Attack] x [Stage 6 Double Team or Minimize]
= 33% x 33%
= 10.89%

So if you let your opponent do their thing for 12 turns, then omg.. you have less than an 11% chance of hitting them! Wtfhaxor! R1gg3d l1ke ur momma!!
  #40  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

I believe if your gonna ban these moves then you can't beat 'em.
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  #41  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:22 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

OMG, StellerRay, I love you! I have been fighting for Double Team for so long, and then you come! You're like my Jesus.

Needless to say, I agree with StellerRay (don't flame me please, Fire Away).
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Last edited by Pickleboy; 01-29-2008 at 06:26 AM.
  #42  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:27 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Away View Post
I agree that at some point it should be considered for testing, but comparing it to Nasty Plot and Dragon Dance is irrelevant, simply by the way that the Evasion stat functions. Stopping Nasty Plot or DD set ups is as easy as sending in an opposing Pokemon who can threaten with a SE attack, IE: Starmie for Infernape. Stopping someone using Double Team isn't quite as easy.
Care to explain that first bit..?

I think sending out something threatening would work just as well on someone who's buffing themselves up as it would work on someone who's.. buffing themselves up.. just in another department. It's rather risky to try raising your evasiveness with a SE attack coming at you.

Like I said, the first stage is only 75% Accuracy. Meaning you have a 1 in 4 chance of escaping a hit or move with 100 ACC. Still rather high chance of being hit, isn't it? If you manage to survive that turn, to raise it again.. it's still only a 60% Accuracy. Which means you have a 2 in 5 chance of avoiding the next attack. Still.. rather risky for you the Double Teamer. Even by the 3rd turn... it's a 50/50.

Whereas if you're buffing up the normal Stat modifiers, as I've mentioned, you can usually buff up 1 stat "sharply" (by 2 stages) or buff up 2 different stats (by 1 stage each). One "sharp" buff and you're doing 200% ATK or taking 50% less damage. This can be achieved in 1 turn.

That's why it's good to compare Stat mods and Accuracy/Evasiveness mods. Accuracy/Evasiveness mods can only go up 1 Stage per turn.

So please do explain why comparing Stat mods and Accuracy/Evasiveness mods is "irrelevant" based on their "functions".

Edit: @Pickleboy: lol, I'm new here (28 posts! ^^) but I'm just confused about these rules.

ray

Last edited by StellarRay; 01-29-2008 at 06:30 AM.
  #43  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:30 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Because Sp. Attack, Attack and Speed work differently than Evasion. I don't see how that's confusing.

Basically, after a Double Team, your opponent can't threaten you as effectively as they'd be able to with a move with 100 accuracy. Speed and attack boosts can be overcome by switching in a proper threat.

You're not going to change anything with theorymon. If you really, really want to see Evasion Clause removed, organize testing on a large scale, post logs to back up your claim (Hint: this is important) and then we can debate all day.

I'm not gonna flame you Pickleboy. You haven't insulted anyone or called tier users evil bastards.

Yet. ;P

EDIT: To elaborate on my point, staying in on a threatening mon after a DT boost is a high-risk, high-reward tactic. You see these all the time in D/P, where hitting hard and fast is very important. People often opt for Fire Blast over Flamethrower, as the reward ends up being higher than the risk. This could be the same case for DTs. :/
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Last edited by Fire Away; 01-29-2008 at 06:38 AM.
  #44  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:43 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Away View Post
Because Sp. Attack, Attack and Speed work differently than Evasion. I don't see how that's confusing.

Basically, after a Double Team, your opponent can't threaten you as effectively as they'd be able to with a move with 100 accuracy. Speed and attack boosts can be overcome by switching in a proper threat.

You're not going to change anything with theorymon. If you really, really want to see Evasion Clause removed, organize testing on a large scale, post logs to back up your claim (Hint: this is important) and then we can debate all day.

I'm not gonna flame you Pickleboy. You haven't insulted anyone or called tier users evil bastards.

Yet. ;P
By your definition, Sp. ATK, ATK, SPD, DEF, and Sp. DEF work differently from each other...

One raises Physical damage output, another raises your chance to attack first, another raises damage intake from Sp. ATK moves.. etc.

Obviously after a Double Team they can't threaten you as effectively as before.. just like after raising 2 stages in DEF or Sp. DEF they can't threaten you as effectively as before. Isn't that the point?

Telling a repeatedly self-admitted noob like me to organize the Pokemon world to do "organized testing on a large scale" is the same as telling me to shut the @$%^ up and that this conversation or there lack of is over.

It really seems that most people against this are the same people who want their 100 ACC moves to always hit. Obviously that is the ONE thing Evasiveness has to affect... the ONE and ONLY thing. It's like saying that you hate how you take more damage after someone attacks after being buffed with a Dancing Dragon! Or saying that after someone uses Agility they got to go first next turn and how that's complete BS!

I get a feeling this thread is going to be locked soon enough by Double Team haters. lol

ray
  #45  
Old 01-29-2008, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

...Yes...Attack, Sp. Attack, Sp. Def, etc., all work differently.

Obviously? :/

I'm saying that Evasion works way different than all of those. Reducing accuracy of most attacking moves =/= increasing special attack through Nasty Plot. You really can't see how this is a different set-up move? o_O

You're also assuming that everyone runs 100 accuracy moves in D/P. Find me a special Gengar without Focus Blast, please.

Also, if you're not willing to test this, what was the point of this topic in the first place? -_-

I wasn't telling you to shut the **** up. I was telling you that you can't try and change the metagame by arguing theories and math. It's something that needs to be tested before being allowed, just like every other banned-to-allowed decision.

EDIT: Also, you're misunderstanding the large scale I was referring to. Large scale basically means a group of 20ish people to battle regularly using Double Team, and observing what it does to the metagame. They'll compare their logs and make a stand after doing so. I don't mean 'The Pokemon World' as you put it.
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