Member List
Calendar
F.A.Q.
Search
Log Out
Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000  
 

Go Back   Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000 » Pokemon Main Boards » Pokemon: Games » Fourth Generation

Fourth Generation Discuss the fourth generation Pokemon games: Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, HeartGold and SoulSilver.


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 01-28-2008, 07:38 AM
Fire Away's Avatar
Fire Away Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 4)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,768
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Donphan can't even 2HKO Garchomp with Ice Shard. Weavile and Mamoswine are two who I'd bring up, but they can't take a boosted hit.

There's also the fact that these moves are susceptible to missing as well. Most Brightpowder Chomps are carrying Sub as well anyways, so if you do manage to hit them, all you've accomplished is breaking their sub.

I also think comparing it to SR and Spikes is a poor comparison, as they're totally different things with separate effects. Get enough DTs under your belt and you almost become immune to damage. Baton Pass this to a sweeper like Marowak to allow for an easy Swords Dance set up and congratulations, you can now sweep almost everything in the game. :/

I may be overestimating Evasion's potency here, but you're underestimating it as well. I don't doubt that it can be stopped. I know it can.

It's something that could be tested in the future, maybe, but IMO it'll just end up being a waste of time.
__________________


Hi




  #17  
Old 01-28-2008, 08:04 AM
Teo's Avatar
Teo Offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
Send a message via AIM to Teo Send a message via MSN to Teo
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Most standard Donhapns can't 2hko it. Though if you max it's attack and give it adamant nature. It should be able to. I'm also not trying to underestimate Evasion tactics. I'm well aware of how dangerous it can be. I'm just on the opposite end of the debate, so it makes it seem like I'm underestimating it a great deal.

Most people don't usually test it because they feel it's cheap. Will it be a waste of time? It's really hard to say since there are very few people willing to actually do research on it.
__________________
  #18  
Old 01-28-2008, 08:11 AM
Fire Away's Avatar
Fire Away Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 4)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,768
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Don't make it seem like people aren't willing to test things, because they are. There are tournaments testing Ho-Oh's status as an Uber Poke right now. I'm rather sure (not 100%, mind you) that Evasion was tested in RSE and proven to be broken. I can't see how this has changed in the leap from RSE to D/P. If anything it's likely to be even harder to counter now with how ridiculously threatening mons in D/P are. :|

Also, running max attack Donphan is really limiting his capabilities to take hits as well as he should be able to.
__________________


Hi




  #19  
Old 01-28-2008, 08:34 AM
Teo's Avatar
Teo Offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
Send a message via AIM to Teo Send a message via MSN to Teo
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

The thing about Donphan is it can still carry Lefties, so, it still has some survivability. I'd just have to mess around with it's EV spread to see what best benefits it.

As for it still being broken, it's quite possible that it is. Yet, there is the fact that it could have been equalized out now. With the addition of many knew moves as well as pokes. Not to mention the addition of Choice Scarf. Not to mention new abilities. The fact that Donphan does get Ice Shard is quite a big deal.

I know we can both argue this all day. Yet, we both know it can wreak havoc and that it can be countered. Despite the few pokes who are are able to do it. Until it is checked again, we can only speculate on different scenario's.
__________________
  #20  
Old 01-28-2008, 08:50 AM
Fire Away's Avatar
Fire Away Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 4)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,768
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

By maxing Donphan's attack with 252 Attack EVs and an Adamant nature, you're cutting off almost 100 points of his defense rating. To say that Leftovers makes up for that is silly.

IMO using Choice items if Evasion was introduced would be a horrible idea. You use an Earthquake/T-Bolt/any move something is immune to and you're inviting them to come in and get a free Double Team. Out of the Choice items you could use, Scarf seems like the worst anyways. IMO Specs or Band would be better. If you're only going to hit your opponent once out of every five turns or so, every hit must count for a lot.

Who said the mon using Double Team had to be something fast and frail anyways, btw? Leech Seed Celebi has little problems stalling out entire teams as it is, with a few Double Teams under its belt I have no doubt that it could do this job far better than it ever has before. :|

I know it seems like I'm just listing one example after another, but fact that almost every Pokemon can easily abuse Double Team in some way to the point where's it's broken illustrates how much havoc it could cause.
__________________


Hi




  #21  
Old 01-28-2008, 09:36 AM
BuRnT tOaSt's Avatar
BuRnT tOaSt Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

i say minimize and double team should be aloud because ur using a turn to see if the can hit you or not so it is fair.
__________________
http://h1.ripway.com/omis1123/VPPdarkegg2.gif
Houndour
Hatches: 25
Evolves: 82
Level 100: 310
  #22  
Old 01-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Saber's Avatar
Saber Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Do you really wanna know?
Posts: 105
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarRay View Post
I was just reading the forums and I noticed that under one of Sticky Threads in Pokebattle forum that there are rules against putting more than 1 pokemon asleep, no double teaming or minimizing (basically, raising evasion), and no 2 of the same pokemon...

So I was wondering, why are these rules in place? Seems to take out alot out of the Pokemon battle. Why are we allowed to say.. pass on stat ups and use poison or paralysis type attacks or lower attacks etc etc... but Sleep and Raising Evasiveness is not allowed?

thanks,

ray
Well the sleep clause is there to prevent people from abusing sleep too much(just think how pissed of you'll be if all your pokemon are put to sleep by a Breloom, I chose Breloom as an example because it's one of the few pokemon with a 100% acc sleep causing move other notables include Butterfree and Parasect but they don't see much of use in the standard metagame.). Evasion clause is there to ensure that the game is won by skill not by luck(akthough luck is still a very important factor), species clause is just there to prevent the overuse of a single pokemon. A team full of Togekiss would suck cause all 6 of them have the potential to hax you to death(air slash has a 60% flinch rate after the serene grace boost).
  #23  
Old 01-28-2008, 06:11 PM
StellarRay's Avatar
StellarRay Offline
Amateur Trainer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saber View Post
Well the sleep clause is there to prevent people from abusing sleep too much(just think how pissed of you'll be if all your pokemon are put to sleep by a Breloom, I chose Breloom as an example because it's one of the few pokemon with a 100% acc sleep causing move other notables include Butterfree and Parasect but they don't see much of use in the standard metagame.). Evasion clause is there to ensure that the game is won by skill not by luck(akthough luck is still a very important factor), species clause is just there to prevent the overuse of a single pokemon. A team full of Togekiss would suck cause all 6 of them have the potential to hax you to death(air slash has a 60% flinch rate after the serene grace boost).
Surely tho, a team full of 1 Pokemon has 6x the weakness as well as 6x the strength.

And the sleep clause, if sleep is that powerful.. shouldn't Breloom be a uber then instead? Is there no way to counter it without using a rule against it?

I don't think the "luck vs skill" is a good reason for the Evasion Rule. This entire game is for the most part a rock/paper/scissors-based game of luck.

- Using an Evasiveness raising move takes up 1 of the 4 available move slots of a pokemon

- Uses up a turn during a fight

- Raising Evasiveness by 1 stage = x 75% chance to hit
- Raising Attack or Sp. Attack by 1 stage = x 150% ATK/Sp.ATK

- Normal
= Accuracy x ATK/Hit
= 100% x 100% ATK/Hit
= 1/1 x 100% ATK/Hit
= 1 x 100% ATK/Hit
= 100% ATK/Hit

- 1 Stage Raised
= Accuracy x ATK/Hit
= 75% x 150% ATK/Hit
= 112.5% ATK/Hit

- Raising Evasiveness by 2 stages = x 60% chance to hit
- Raising Attack or Sp. Attack by 2 stages = x 200% ATK/Sp.ATK

- 1 Stage Raised
= Accuracy x ATK/Hit
= 60% x 200% ATK/Hit
= 120% ATK/Hit

- Raising Evasiveness by 3 stages = x 50% chance to hit
- Raising Attack or Sp. Attack by 3 stages = x 250% ATK/Sp.ATK

- 3 Stages Raised
= Accuracy x ATK/Hit
= 50% x 250% ATK/Hit
= 125% ATK/Hit
  #24  
Old 01-28-2008, 06:40 PM
shedinjask's Avatar
shedinjask Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 1)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,042
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

What the hell is this thread doing existing.

Sleep itself is not a problem. One bulky Pokemon asleep? It can still take hits. It's still useful. Your whole team asleep? No.

As for Double Team, I'm going to run a Double Team CM Cress okay? And a DT Jask passing to a Sub/SD Chomp. And then maybe a DT/Curse/Taunt/Rest Dusknoir just to be an ass.

EDIT: The above post was confusing me with all the numbers but I get it now. It's akin to gambler's fallacy but with more truth: Just beacuse something has 50% acc and misses the first time does not mean it's going to hit the second time. On average, yes. But in a game where one turn is most likely costing you the match, you can't rely on 'average'. To say something with 100 BP and 50% acc has an effective 50 BP is stupid. In one turn, it has a 0 BP or a 100 BP, and you have no way of knowing which and no influence over it.

Last edited by shedinjask; 01-28-2008 at 06:44 PM.
  #25  
Old 01-28-2008, 06:46 PM
Master Aqua's Avatar
Master Aqua Offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 8,969
Send a message via AIM to Master Aqua Send a message via MSN to Master Aqua
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

They are not allowed because they make battling unfair at times but I belive some pokes should be allowed to use them like a double team suckkle because shuckle is an under used pokemon it dose not mkake it that unfair that he is using it.
  #26  
Old 01-28-2008, 07:07 PM
StellarRay's Avatar
StellarRay Offline
Amateur Trainer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedinjask View Post
What the hell is this thread doing existing.

Sleep itself is not a problem. One bulky Pokemon asleep? It can still take hits. It's still useful. Your whole team asleep? No.

As for Double Team, I'm going to run a Double Team CM Cress okay? And a DT Jask passing to a Sub/SD Chomp. And then maybe a DT/Curse/Taunt/Rest Dusknoir just to be an ass.

EDIT: The above post was confusing me with all the numbers but I get it now. It's akin to gambler's fallacy but with more truth: Just beacuse something has 50% acc and misses the first time does not mean it's going to hit the second time. On average, yes. But in a game where one turn is most likely costing you the match, you can't rely on 'average'. To say something with 100 BP and 50% acc has an effective 50 BP is stupid. In one turn, it has a 0 BP or a 100 BP, and you have no way of knowing which and no influence over it.
Actually, the Gambler's Fallacy is believing that a certain outcome will occur due to the history or previous actions. What I showed you was just an average. If I were to use the Gambler's Fallacy then I would assume that I would hit you at a guaranteed interval. Though it's true that one turn can cost you the match.. you must remember it goes both ways. That's why the average is important to consider.

At the maximum 6 stages raised, there's a 33% chance of hitting if evasion was raised.

At the maximum 6 stages raised, there's a 400% ATK/hit if attack was raised.

Gambler's Fallacy would be if I missed you the first 2 hits and then assumed the 3rd hit would land for 400%. However, I'm just stating the average which is mathematically correct in the long run. Of course, like you said, every turn matters. But there is a chance (33% chance at stage 6) that I'd hit you on the first try. Also there's a 33% chance I'd hit you again for 400% on the 2nd try. And another 33% chance I'd hit you thrice for 400% on the 3rd try. The Gambler's Fallacy is believing that the chance increases or decreases respective to the history of previous outcomes. However, as the fallacy implies that's just not the case. The 33% chance at stage 6 is the same 33% chance every turn.

It just seems like everyone is stating only what would happen on the Evasiveness raising pokemon's perspective. The opponent has an equal number of turns, does it not? It's not just sitting there and watching. There appears to be moves that lower or increase 2 stats at a time or 2 stages at a time instead of just raising ATK like I've been using as the example.

Edit: Is Sleep really that unstoppable?
  #27  
Old 01-28-2008, 07:50 PM
shedinjask's Avatar
shedinjask Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 1)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,042
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

No, what you are using is similar to gambler's fallacy. You are saying that a 100 BP move with 50% accuracy has an effective BP of 50, in other words you are assuming just beacuse you missed it one turn you are likely to hit the next turn. It's true in theory, but in practice one of the turns you hit could be useless, and another time you could miss something when your win depended on the hit.

I can see what you're saying, like if you flip a coin 100 times 50 of the flips would be heads. But in Pokemon, it's where the heads comes up that matters, not just that it comes up. Zap Cannon Forretress is not using a 50 BP move on Gyarados and then the same move on Donphan. It's using either a 100 BP move on Gyara or a 100 BP move on Donphan. Saying in the long run that Forry will deal half of a Zap Cannon's worth of damage to Gyarados multiplied by the number of times it used Zap Cannon is stupid, mostly because no one is going to leave Gyara in on a Zap Cannon Forry. You can't just think in mathematical terms here.

Yeah, sleep is pretty broken without sleep clause.

Last edited by shedinjask; 01-28-2008 at 07:55 PM.
  #28  
Old 01-28-2008, 09:06 PM
StellarRay's Avatar
StellarRay Offline
Amateur Trainer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedinjask View Post
No, what you are using is similar to gambler's fallacy. You are saying that a 100 BP move with 50% accuracy has an effective BP of 50, in other words you are assuming just beacuse you missed it one turn you are likely to hit the next turn. It's true in theory, but in practice one of the turns you hit could be useless, and another time you could miss something when your win depended on the hit.

I can see what you're saying, like if you flip a coin 100 times 50 of the flips would be heads. But in Pokemon, it's where the heads comes up that matters, not just that it comes up. Zap Cannon Forretress is not using a 50 BP move on Gyarados and then the same move on Donphan. It's using either a 100 BP move on Gyara or a 100 BP move on Donphan. Saying in the long run that Forry will deal half of a Zap Cannon's worth of damage to Gyarados multiplied by the number of times it used Zap Cannon is stupid, mostly because no one is going to leave Gyara in on a Zap Cannon Forry. You can't just think in mathematical terms here.

Yeah, sleep is pretty broken without sleep clause.
In your first paragraph, what you've stated is the Gambler's Fallacy.. just as I've defined it in the last post. What you're confusing for yourself is the Average vs Gambler's Fallacy. And you're kinda being redundant to state that a missed attack does 0 dmg and a hit scores a hit...

The only way to look at these numbers is through math. Otherwise, it really is just a completely random hit or miss as you've been implying!

First off, for 50% accuracy that you mention to occur the enemy pokemon must have raised Evasiveness by 3 stages. Since the only moves that seem to raise Evasiveness are Double Team, Minimize, Sand Attack, etc.. which all only raise the Evasiveness by 1 stage therefore it'd take 3 turns to raise Evasiveness by 3 stages. That's 3 turns for your pokemon to do something as well.

Now, I'm not a pokemon pro as I'm sure you've all noticed since most of my posts have been questions about the game mechanics. However, I know that there are quite a number of moves this game has.

- Raise 1 of your own stat by 1 stage/turn (ie ATK as I've mentioned, which has a faster growth)
- Raise 1 of your own stat by 2 stages/turn (ie Swords Dance raises ATK by 2 stages...)
- Raise 2 of your own stat by 1 stage each/turn (ie Dragon Dance raises ATK and SPD by 1 stage ea)

or

- Lower 1 of enemy stat by 1 stage/turn (ie String Shot lowers enemy SPD by 1 stage)
- Lower 1 of enemy stat by 2 stages/turn (ie Charm lowers enemy ATK by 2 stages...)
- Lower 2 of enemy stat by 1 stage each/turn (ie Calm Mind raises Sp ATK and Sp DEF by 1 stage ea)

or

- Do whatever you want for 3 turns...

There's alot of possibilities.. alot of new STRATEGIES possibly, I would think. But that's just my 2 cents as a noob. The real weaknesses I see to raising Evasiveness is that it can only be done 1 stage per turn and the growth effectiveness pales in comparison to the ATK/Sp ATK/DEF/Sp DEF/SPD growth modifiers (http://www.psypokes.com/lab/stats.php). As I've shown in the earlier post, the average growth effectiveness for Stat Modifiers even at 1 Stat stage:1 Evasiveness stage (1:1 ratio).. the Stat Growth Effectiveness is better.

To summarize...

1. While Evasiveness is being raised, you or your opponent also receive a turn each time. (Duh? But this seems to be the most overlooked concept..)

2. Stat Growth Effectiveness is faster than Evasiveness Growth Effectiveness (even on a 1:1 ratio)

3. Stat Modifiers used by most people raise or lower either 2 Stages in 1 Stat alone or 1 Stage in 2 Stats. Evasiveness can only be raised 1 Stage per turn.


I see this as un-centralizing the game rather than centralizing it as someone has suggested. Evasiveness takes away from the guaranteed hits.. of 100 ACC moves, yes. But it allows for more strategies as well. Moves like Aerial Ace, Magical Leaf, the electric equivalent, etc.. actually have purpose now. Same for Abilities such as Keen Eye or moves like Miracle Eye.

Accuracy vs Stat Mod
1 Stage = 75% vs 150% (Accuracy odds still in your favour)
2 Stage = 60% vs 200% (Accuracy odds still in your favour)
3 Stage = 50% vs 250% (Accuracy odds favours no one)
4 Stage = 43% vs 300% (Accuracy odds in their favour, but note the steep Evasiveness rate drop)
5 Stage = 38% vs 350%
6 Stage = 33% vs 400%

This entire time, the average effectiveness is still in the Stat Mods favour. Agility for 200% SPD and you get guaranteed first move next turn if your pokemon isn't too slow to begin with.

Sorry for the long post, wonder if anyone will bother reading it. I've probably made some mistakes in there, I am noob afterall. ^^

ray
  #29  
Old 01-28-2008, 09:18 PM
shedinjask's Avatar
shedinjask Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 1)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,042
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

And in those three turns, you DT up and the whole thing becomes a stallwar.

Besides, Curse Dusknoir 4HKOs you while using Double Team, and Taunts your stat up attempts, and Rests off your damage. Switch? I do it again and again and again.
  #30  
Old 01-28-2008, 09:41 PM
StellarRay's Avatar
StellarRay Offline
Amateur Trainer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 54
Default Re: Why are Double Team and Minimized.. not allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shedinjask View Post
And in those three turns, you DT up and the whole thing becomes a stallwar.

Besides, Curse Dusknoir 4HKOs you while using Double Team, and Taunts your stat up attempts, and Rests off your damage. Switch? I do it again and again and again.
And what exactly is your opponent usually doing while you:

1. Double Team (1 stage = 75% Accuracy)
2. Taunt (force them to attack for 2-4 turns)
3. Curse (wait 4 turns for KO)
4. Rest

That's at least 4 turns just waiting for Curse to kill. Like I said, I'm a pokemon noob to this gen but doesn't your opponent get to do something in this time besides.. watching you?

Quote:
1. While Evasiveness is being raised, you or your opponent also receive a turn each time. (Duh? But this seems to be the most overlooked concept..)
From what marriland tells me, Dusknoir has one of the lowest HP and SPDs in the game but has one of the best DEF and Sp DEF. Curse used by a ghost pokemon reduces its health by 50% of its max, correct? It seems like a good time to hit you. Paralysis and Sleep also seem like viable options since Dusknoir more than likely goes last each turn. But I don't know, there's a minimum 4 turns to think of something. To be honest, I don't even know how curse works in a battle. I've only used it on others in the game (NPCs), so I don't know.. does curse stick on the original pokemon after it's been switched out or to the one that gets switched in?

Anyways, please consider the 3 points I summarized and the math involved.. instead of challenging it with these faux battles.. lol

By the way, if your opponent chooses to DT up as many and at the same time you DT up... isn't that their choice? And there are sure hit moves and accuracy increasing moves/abilities.. it seemed to me.. like you gave the counter to it yourself with the Curse move.

ray
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Style Design: AlienSector.com