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  #31  
Old 01-09-2008, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan117 View Post
Well than how was the world created in the evolution theory?
The theory of evolution does not deal with that issue. What you're looking for are the cosmological models for the origins of the universe. That field has to do with physics and astronomy more than biology. The theory of evolution deals with the changes in populations across generations (At least to my knowledge).
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  #32  
Old 01-10-2008, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

I myself believe that it is 'Unobservable Energy Transferring Into An Observable' more so than 'New Energy' myself, and it is in fact still debatable. There is no proof whatsoever that we can see and observe all spectrums of energy in the whole massive universe, and so we cannot truly prove or disprove that either is true. Of course, the latter is easier to disprove, in that we need to find that each of these bursts of energy can in fact be attributed to a previously undetectable energy, whereas the former can simply be countered with the 'Unobservable Energy' argument over and over again, until we can take it as fact that we can and do observe all forms of energy.

I would also like the point out that the article you quoted claims that experiments have proven with a 'High Degree of Accuracy', rather than 'Perfect Accuracy'. I am of the opinion that it cannot really be accepted as fact in that case. For example, I can predict with perfect accuracy that within the Earth Sphere, objects fall towards the Earth.

Of course, I would like to point out to Lucavi that whichever is correct, the 'Energy Transferrence' model is that one used in schools all over the world today, all the way to tertiary level. The very idea that energy is transferred is fundamental to physics as we know it, and unless you actually go out to find so-called 'Controversial' theories yourself, you will not find it. Plus, the theory itself has not been proven, as Quantum Physics itself is still a very spotty affair. Not to mention that when comparing Evolution VS Creation, it is far easier to accept the normal model as truth, as Quantum Physics is fairly irrelevant in this aspect, especially without sufficient proof on most of its laws to pass as fact.

You claim that energy can be created, but you have not stated the source. However much the God of Gaps bugs you, it cannot be discounted as a possible reason for the creation and destruction of energy. The God of Gaps itself is a concept as old as civilisation itself, that everything from even fire, so fundamental to life in itself, was assigned a story to explain its creation. Many of these Gods of Gaps have been disproven already, but when the Bible perpetuates an omnipotent God, God is not only the God of Gaps, but the God of leading these non-Gaps.

I myself do not follow the Bible, but I just feel like pointing this out. What I do believe in however, is macro-evolution. Micro-evolution, as Kenny will so gladly point out, is already fact, so meh to that.

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I made this post yesterday, but PE2K wtf'ed on me.
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  #33  
Old 01-10-2008, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution?

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Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post



Evolution is one of the scientific theories with the most acceptance, to the point that it's bound to be proven a fact, since it:

- Has a whole deal of evidence
- Has utilitarian value
- Makes predictions

All characteristics found in theories that have been proven facts.
It is a theory, and nothing more.
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  #34  
Old 01-10-2008, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution?

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Originally Posted by skiboydoggy View Post
What I do believe in however, is macro-evolution. Micro-evolution, as Kenny will so gladly point out, is already fact, so meh to that.
For someone who actually reads my posts, I find it ironic that you still don't understand evolution at its fundamental level. Macroevolution is simply speciation. And to that, speciation exists as a true fact. As I said, there is no such thing as a "belief" in a fact, there is only acceptance or rejection.

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Originally Posted by Wunschkind View Post
It is a theory, and nothing more.
One who cannot define what a theory is has no place to state "this is only a theory". One who does not have even a sliver of understanding of evolution has no place to criticize it.
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2008, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

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Originally Posted by skiboydoggy View Post
I myself believe that it is 'Unobservable Energy Transferring Into An Observable' more so than 'New Energy' myself, and it is in fact still debatable.
I'm afraid not. As stated in the article, in a free space capsule, it can be observed virtual particles, hence new energy coming into existance (Also explained in the first of my quotes).

Quote:
There is no proof whatsoever that we can see and observe all spectrums of energy in the whole massive universe
I don't see your point. We can't observe the whole universe, but we can easily evaluate the fluctuations in a limited space, like the experiments in the article have been made.

Quote:
I would also like the point out that the article you quoted claims that experiments have proven with a 'High Degree of Accuracy', rather than 'Perfect Accuracy'
The article also says that it is a fact that there is no doubt that virtual particles are created ex nihilo. The "High degree of accuracy" does not refer to their existance, but rather to the predictions made under the fact that they exist (Which is not debatable, as it's based on a scientific principle).

Quote:
The very idea that energy is transferred is fundamental to physics as we know it, and unless you actually go out to find so-called 'Controversial' theories yourself, you will not find it
This is a strawman. I never claimed that energy was never transferred, my claim was that it could also be created.

Quote:
Plus, the theory itself has not been proven
Depends on what you refer to? Are these particles created without energy? Yes. Is it known how it can be made? No.

Quote:
Quantum Physics itself is still a very spotty affair
lol, no it isn't. It's an extremely developed field, often dismissed by laymen (Note: not a personal attack) because it's founded on relativism.

Quote:
You claim that energy can be created, but you have not stated the source
There is no source, as stated by the very title of the article. Pretty obvious, actually.

Quote:
However much the God of Gaps bugs you, it cannot be discounted as a possible reason for the creation and destruction of energy
Of course it can. By the very simple use of Occam's razor, we eliminate any superfluous entity that is required to explain a particular phenomenon: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunschkind
It is a theory, and nothing more.
Indeed! So what's your point?
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  #36  
Old 01-10-2008, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

Here is somthing that I think happens every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolutionist
My great great great grandfather was a worm, and over time grew an arm, and a leg and here we are today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creationist
Yeah? Well, my great great great grandfather was Adam, and he should of stepped on your great grandfather.
For the evolutionists, I have a question. What do you say when you go the zoo? Do you say "a trip to the zoo" or "a family reunion"?
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  #37  
Old 01-10-2008, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

You forgot Intelligent Design.

Evolution. It has more scientific evidence and makes sense, considering its principle in natural selection. Survival of the fittest, that's how it is and how it has always been. Creationism, I don't support for many reasons which I'm not going to go into depth with.

@ Dragon Master:

Do you know evolution works? I understand you're Christian (who doesn't?) but you're not making yourself clear. As evolution progresses, you grow more and more different and less related to animals. It's adaptation to a lifestyle or environment, evolution has progressed for millions of years, although Humans are classified as animals, that doesn't mean we should be calling the next scorpion to see our brethren.
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  #38  
Old 01-10-2008, 11:13 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

I believe in Evolution. I believe that 'God / Gods' are guiding the evolution though.
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  #39  
Old 01-10-2008, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

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Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
Here is somthing that I think happens every day.





For the evolutionists, I have a question. What do you say when you go the zoo? Do you say "a trip to the zoo" or "a family reunion"?
Another christian, with not even close to being logical non sense. Yeah I said it.

There are different species of animals dude, there are different phylums, kingdoms and everything. A worm isn't related to a human, so that little joke wars rather retarded. Think of it this way, Humans are animals, decendents of the ape family. Now you tell me oh well we don't look like them "God made us." Here are 2 questions for you.

1.) Why is our DNA very similar to a chimpanzee's DNA?
2.) Why does it have to be the Christian god that made us, why not the hindu god?

Think about question #2. OH heres a perfect example buddy. What about how different diseases evolve. Like the avian bird flu, it evolved. Heres a link to people that want to check it out.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...051115_birdflu

Theres evolution right there. Also archaeologists have found fossils; skulls (etc.) of past apes. If they would line the skulls up in a time line from 5 million years ago to the present you can see the evolution of the size of the skull, different teeth and so on. Heres another link.

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html
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  #40  
Old 01-10-2008, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_Master View Post
For the evolutionists, I have a question. What do you say when you go the zoo? Do you say "a trip to the zoo" or "a family reunion"?
Lmao!
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetal View Post
Another christian, with not even close to being logical non sense. Yeah I said it.

There are different species of animals dude, there are different phylums, kingdoms and everything. A worm isn't related to a human, so that little joke wars rather retarded. Think of it this way, Humans are animals, decendents of the ape family. Now you tell me oh well we don't look like them "God made us." Here are 2 questions for you.

1.) Why is our DNA very similar to a chimpanzee's DNA?
2.) Why does it have to be the Christian god that made us, why not the hindu god?

Think about question #2. OH heres a perfect example buddy. What about how different diseases evolve. Like the avian bird flu, it evolved. Heres a link to people that want to check it out.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...051115_birdflu

Theres evolution right there. Also archaeologists have found fossils; skulls (etc.) of past apes. If they would line the skulls up in a time line from 5 million years ago to the present you can see the evolution of the size of the skull, different teeth and so on. Heres another link.

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html
1. Because God made us that way.
2. Im saying the Christian God cause Im Christian.....if I were hindu then I would probably say it was a hindu god.
3. Yes but viruses evolve faster and for a human to evolve it would take more than millions of years. just the cave men era would be a couple million years itself and what about after that? Theres still no direct evidence. There could have been another kind of apes before which is extinct today. And another thing is why did the apes all of a sudden stop evolving? I mean what about the apes in the wild or the zoo....why'd they stop evolving?
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  #41  
Old 01-10-2008, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetal View Post
Another christian, with not even close to being logical non sense. Yeah I said it.

There are different species of animals dude, there are different phylums, kingdoms and everything. A worm isn't related to a human, so that little joke wars rather retarded. Think of it this way, Humans are animals, decendents of the ape family. Now you tell me oh well we don't look like them "God made us." Here are 2 questions for you.

1.) Why is our DNA very similar to a chimpanzee's DNA?
2.) Why does it have to be the Christian god that made us, why not the hindu god?

Think about question #2. OH heres a perfect example buddy. What about how different diseases evolve. Like the avian bird flu, it evolved. Heres a link to people that want to check it out.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...051115_birdflu

Theres evolution right there. Also archaeologists have found fossils; skulls (etc.) of past apes. If they would line the skulls up in a time line from 5 million years ago to the present you can see the evolution of the size of the skull, different teeth and so on. Heres another link.

http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html
Well here comes ANOTHer Christian (well Catholic but pretty much the same).

Seeing as I have been raised by HIGHLY Hardcore Catholics I pretty much came to believe that "God" created all living things. BUT also seeing as I love science and its functions, I came to my own theory that God created THE Beginning life on Earth which then evolved.

Now, some of you may then counter that there have been proof of how space debris seem to be the culprit cause of this, so now I say that God was the cause of this as well.

And now I expect another greatly construced and backed up arguement by mah man Anthony!! xD
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  #42  
Old 01-11-2008, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

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Originally Posted by spartan117 View Post
Lmao!


1. Because God made us that way.
2. Im saying the Christian God cause Im Christian.....if I were hindu then I would probably say it was a hindu god.
3. Yes but viruses evolve faster and for a human to evolve it would take more than millions of years. just the cave men era would be a couple million years itself and what about after that? Theres still no direct evidence. There could have been another kind of apes before which is extinct today. And another thing is why did the apes all of a sudden stop evolving? I mean what about the apes in the wild or the zoo....why'd they stop evolving?
As I said, study evolution BEFORE talking about it. Evolution is the HOW, not the WHY. All organisms evolve. This is a proven fact because we can artificially induce speciation (which btw no Christian is actually capable of countering, because one cannot counter a fact). Yes, DIRECT evidence that evolution occured. QED.

As for your questions of "why", this goes into a theory known as natural selection leading to evolution. In this case, why humans "stop" evolving is simply due to a lack of selective pressures against us. As I said, I don't care if you deny the theory of natural selection leading to evolution. I care if you don't understand evolution (which you clearly don't), and use that lack of an understanding to apply your opinion on such a topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zukirin View Post
Well here comes ANOTHer Christian (well Catholic but pretty much the same).

Seeing as I have been raised by HIGHLY Hardcore Catholics I pretty much came to believe that "God" created all living things. BUT also seeing as I love science and its functions, I came to my own theory that God created THE Beginning life on Earth which then evolved.

Now, some of you may then counter that there have been proof of how space debris seem to be the culprit cause of this, so now I say that God was the cause of this as well.

And now I expect another greatly construced and backed up arguement by mah man Anthony!! xD
As I said, Pope John Paul II publically supported evolution. Catholics have no reason to deny evolution simply because the highest authority, the one closest to "God", of the church supported it. As I already said before as well, "God" is something that is intangible and is not a debatable subject anyway.
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  #43  
Old 01-11-2008, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
As I said, study evolution BEFORE talking about it. Evolution is the HOW, not the WHY. All organisms evolve. This is a proven fact because we can artificially induce speciation (which btw no Christian is actually capable of countering, because one cannot counter a fact). Yes, DIRECT evidence that evolution occured. QED.

As for your questions of "why", this goes into a theory known as natural selection leading to evolution. In this case, why humans "stop" evolving is simply due to a lack of selective pressures against us. As I said, I don't care if you deny the theory of natural selection leading to evolution. I care if you don't understand evolution (which you clearly don't), and use that lack of an understanding to apply your opinion on such a topic.



As I said, Pope John Paul II publically supported evolution. Catholics have no reason to deny evolution simply because the highest authority, the one closest to "God", of the church supported it. As I already said before as well, "God" is something that is intangible and is not a debatable subject anyway.
So you say its natural selection eh?
Why arent the animals whose habitats keep getting destroyed dont evolve so they can survive in some other habitat?

And also we all dont have to be like the pope. He is still a human and he also sins so you cant say we have to follow him and his thoughts. I doubt he even has that much power....one thing I know is that he or any other person cant forgive a person for his sins -- only God can so Christians should be asing God what to do and not the pope.
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  #44  
Old 01-11-2008, 08:48 AM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

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Originally Posted by spartan117 View Post
So you say its natural selection eh?
Why arent the animals whose habitats keep getting destroyed dont evolve so they can survive in some other habitat?

And also we all dont have to be like the pope. He is still a human and he also sins so you cant say we have to follow him and his thoughts. I doubt he even has that much power....one thing I know is that he or any other person cant forgive a person for his sins -- only God can so Christians should be asing God what to do and not the pope.
Can't survive and evolve if you're dead. Thankfully enough, the T/G/-insert letter here- Virus has not been invented yet.
Imagine if the entire forest gets burnt down in a matter of hours, days, or months. Where would the evolution and following speciation occur if there is no time to adapt? Maybe if you introduced the new habitat first and allow adaptation before the utterly destruction of the previous habitat, we might see some of that evolution going on.

And the Church supports Evolution. The Church is the entity closest to God, the highest level of interpretors on the WORD of God, the Bible. Now, I will not venture so far as to say the Christian priests can communicate with God, (speaking to is another matter, what with prayer and all, but there is never a proper answer that He actually gives in a way that us humans can easily understand,) but I feel that when the very governing body of HALF of the Christians in the world comes out and says that Evolution does not contradict the word of God, Christianity should not be an inherent reason to dispute fact. Not that it has not been used before, and not like it will not continue to be used, but fact is fact.

And... @Lucavi: Fair enough, I accept that I'm a layman and may not be able to understand EXACTLY what is being discussed in quantum physics. However, it is a theory and thus we cannot exactly equate it with fact. And the 'Transferrence Only' model is still the one being used in middle to high schools today, with Quantum Physics left out to the relief of millions of students worldwide.

@Kenny: I feel ashamed. D=
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  #45  
Old 01-11-2008, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Creation vs Evolution? (or some other theory...)

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Originally Posted by spartan117 View Post
So you say its natural selection eh?
Why arent the animals whose habitats keep getting destroyed dont evolve so they can survive in some other habitat?

And also we all dont have to be like the pope. He is still a human and he also sins so you cant say we have to follow him and his thoughts. I doubt he even has that much power....one thing I know is that he or any other person cant forgive a person for his sins -- only God can so Christians should be asing God what to do and not the pope.
Actually, the Pope can forgive a person for their sins, as can any other priest (with God's grace working through them). It's called the sacrement of Reconcilliation. Then again, I'm not even sure if Christian denominations actually have that particular sacrament, which could create a difference of beliefs.

I'm also not even fully sure I understand what you meant by the bolded part, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't put up an answer to it...

And evolution has never contradicted anything the church says, unless you take the Bible literally. If you do, then you believe that God made Adam and Eve and everyone in the world is a descendant of them. Basically, much of the creation story is just that, a story, meant to teach a lesson, rather than be taken literally. It's hard to believe that the world was created in just seven days when science (the much more tangible of the two) has provided us with such concrete evidence that it took billions of years for the earth to reach the form it is in today.

The central them of the Adam and Eve story is that God created the Earth and everything on it, and that's what you are supposed to take away from it. Science and religion are not so far apart. Science says humans evolved from lower life forms through a series of spontaneous mutations in DNA that caused offspring different from the parent, and that the best of those are weeded out through natural selection in which the more efficient life form prospers over the less efficient (one of the reasons why humans with dark skin survived in extremely sunny, hot places like Africa). The church can't prove that what has been proven is wrong, but our faith tells us that God is the one who planned the evolution to occur.
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