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Trainer's Court The Trainer's Court! Where the URPG hold it's trials.


View Poll Results: Would you change how sleep talk works
I like it the way it is 4 30.77%
I think it should change 9 69.23%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 06-15-2004, 01:59 AM
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Default Sleep Talk TM

If you don't know what is happening, then look at the questions thread in the general section.

Please write something as well as vote.
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  #2  
Old 06-15-2004, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

I think it should be changed:

1- Easier for refs and reffing ^^
2- Makes some sense

But I guess it should be 3 attacks (containing Rest if you have it) and the ref choose anyone of them randomly but each turn you use SLEEP TALK the user have the right to change the randomly chosen 3 attacks
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  #3  
Old 06-15-2004, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

ML and Shroom have told me about it(just yesterday, lol), and I think it needs to be changed. =P Probably make it a lot easier for the refs and the trainer. =P
  #4  
Old 06-15-2004, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Like I said before. I'm against it. Sleep talk is not supposed to be as good as other "normal" moves because it is used when you are asleep and normally woundn't be able to attack...
  #5  
Old 06-15-2004, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

And like I argued, having a choice of 3-6 attacks instead of 20 is not making sleep talk anywhere as good as thunderbolt, and sleep talk was actually INTENDED to be usable while you're asleep. I'm not saying we should copy the game exactly and make it 3 attacks, but at the present rate where even attacks like Tackle and splash would be used by poor Gyarados, why bother sleep talking when you can snore? 40 power is a hell of a lot more use than a 50-50 chance of using a 70 power attack, for example.

So yeah, I'm pro change, and while I am arguing that for the benefit of having strategy in the URPG, Sleep talk should be toned down attack wise, I am and will be against the ability for players to choose sleep talk attacks on a turn by turn basis. I'd like to see the players choose the attacks on the first use, and that's the only attacks they can see sleep talk use for the rest of the battle.

Come on, sleep talking splash? Not even morons at any of the GSCRS games would have a moveset like that.

Edit, I'll post what I posted in the other thread here in case you guys don't read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koolcurtis
I could so easily abuse the sleep talk tm if you change it to let you choose your moves. I would actually like people to put me asleep, and i could use rest and sleep talk for the whole battle. Your not supposed to have fun when ur asleep, so it's fine the way it is.

Since there isn't much happening in the court room, I'll start a thread there to continue this. I always like to see what others say there.
I understand your concerns, and I'm going to list my points as follows:

-> Moves are made to be abused. Thunderbolt and Flamethrower, for example, are often used over their high powered counterparts because it's all part of strategy. Sleep talk is a strategy in itself. Remember RBY? If you put something to sleep you've just won the match? Exactly. That's EXACTLY why GSC came up with sleep talk. Sleep talk became a strategy, a metagame symbol. You pick 2 attacks, you put in rest and sleep talk, and your pokemon becomes a fearsome tank. Why is that? Because the game willed it so. Part of the strategy of battle, for example, is abusing sleep clause. If I was battling, and I saw a pokemon send out a Jynx for example, I'd immediately send out my sleep talker, take the lovely kiss, switch out, and proceed to kill Jynx. That's strategy. My sleep talker can still survive because on my team, it's the fall guy to take a sleeper hit, it's my reliable resource against sleep moves. This is not RBY anymore. This is GSC. This is RS. This is a new age, where sleep is NOT supposed to be freeze.

-> I did not say ANYWHERE that the person would be able to choose what the move can do each turn. THIS is what I'm proposing:

Proposal for change
On the very First use of sleep talk, the user of sleep talk must specify 3 (I'm not insisting on 3, but 3 is the number in GSC, so I'm using it as example. I think 5 can work too, provided said pokemon have that many moves) moves that sleep talk will operate with, and this will carry on for the ENTIRE battle to the ref, private IM or not is up to them. It's fair, right? In a 3 vs 3, for example, my sleep talking Charizard is up against a venusaur, and I say "Ok, fire blast, flamethrower, ember" and then they send in a blastoise and I go "shiz, I'm screwed". It's perfectly reasonable, and it removes the chance of having sleep talk and going "CHARIZARD USED LEER!" and then "CHARIZARD USED SCRATCH! A WINNER IS NOT YOU!"

Logic: Strategy has not been lost, as you can see from the previous example. While the user does get to choose what to use now, he is still limited by the knowledge, both of his opponent and his own pokemon's ability. Raichu cannot suddenly fire blast because Venusaur came into play, for example. And if you've never seen the opposing player's complete lineup, then you're still hindered, having to call out an array such as "Flamethrower, Earthquake, Slash" on charizard, and then groan as your sleep talk chose slash to hit the incoming Golem, correct?

Summing it up:
Changing sleep talk is abusable to an extent, but it brings that extra bit of strategy to the URPG. I no longer can win any battle just because my Jumpluff uses Sleep powder and it hits and I have synthesis to cover the snore hits. Sleeping pokemon have to plan more carefully, it's no longer "Sleep, hit, hit, hit, hit, win" because your opponent might actually be smart.

Anyways, if you have any other concerns regarding this method of change, I'll be happy to field them.
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Last edited by mlugia; 06-15-2004 at 10:11 PM.
  #6  
Old 06-17-2004, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Moves aren't made to be abused. They are use to strategize with. With your reasoning, the protect and detect combo should be banned. Even though it is unfair for most, it is not all that bad. It's just that newbs don't know how to deal with it, and so that's why people figure out ways to beat it. The same can be done with sleeping. You just need to know what to do. In battles my opponent hardly ever puts me asleep without something just as bad happening to him. Usually I'll toxic them, or use a move that will avoid the slp move all together. See, you just need to research how to beat the move. If you put youself to slp, then you better prepare yourself. It shouldn't be sleep talks fault that you fainted cause you used rest. That rest helps you ALOT so why should you be allowed to have the advantage while ur alseep, you already gained full health and cleared any status problems. You also are only slping for 2 turns and you know the exact turn when u wake up.
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  #7  
Old 06-17-2004, 02:41 AM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Moves aren't made to be abused. They are use to strategize with. With your reasoning, the protect and detect combo should be banned. Even though it is unfair for most, it is not all that bad. It's just that newbs don't know how to deal with it, and so that's why people figure out ways to beat it. The same can be done with sleeping. You just need to know what to do.
Well first off, there is no strategy called Protect and Detect, so whatever you're referring to, I really don't know.

If you mean the whole 100% evade thing, Protect's counter works off of Detects, as does Endure, so Protecting the first turn will cause Endure or Detect to only have a 50% chance of success in the second turn. Strategy? Not really, Nintendo did do a good job of making sure that doesn't happen.


In battles my opponent hardly ever puts me asleep without something just as bad happening to him. Usually I'll toxic them, or use a move that will avoid the slp move all together.
You're assuming I'm stupid. Toxic is laughable with the way URPG operates. Hell, Poison was laughable in GSC as well, with 90% of the standard metagame pokemon knowing rest as one of its 4 moves, and since URPG has no PP limit, Rest can be used indefinately to beat out toxic, so it'd be:
Sleep, get toxiced, kill sleeper, Rest halfway through, live again.

Secondly, Jumpluff has 318 Speed, iirc, making it the fastest sleeper in business with a 75% Sleep powder. Now, using said logic, why would you even try to pull a toxic on a Jumpluff with anything that is faster?


See, you just need to research how to beat the move. If you put youself to slp, then you better prepare yourself.
That's not what I'm arguing though. Are you saying if Darkmaster X, for example, lets his Jynx use Lovely Kiss and hits me, it's my fault for that? Sleep moves have been proven to be an unfair advantage. That's exactly what happened in RBY. And look what happened in GSC immediately?

- Sleep talk was introduced. (Ignore snore, snore has the power of scratch)
- Sleeping pokemon can now attack on the turn of awakening.

Even Gamefreak had to put in ways to make sleep at least bearable, and you're denying said methods by making Sleep talk senselessly useless. In this case, all I really need would be Ninjask baton passing to a Parasect, Spore, win. How many counters can you possibly think of that can counter said strategy?


It shouldn't be sleep talks fault that you fainted cause you used rest. That rest helps you ALOT so why should you be allowed to have the advantage while ur alseep, you already gained full health and cleared any status problems.
Tell it to Nintendo. Seriously. As well, Why should I not be able to do anything if my opponent puts me to sleep?

It's called strategy. You said it yourself. Rest talk is a strategy. Let us use strategy.


You also are only slping for 2 turns and you know the exact turn when u wake up.
Lovely kiss, Sleep powder, and other opponent-induced sleep will force the sleep status upon you between a duration of 1 to 7 turns. Now 1, handable, but 7? Come on, even if you have sleep talk 7 turns would be a challenge.

And to conclude, please find any problems you have with the proposal I have made in my previous post regarding how Sleep talk should operate, along with any logical reasoning that says my opponent is legally entitled to render me useless for 7 turns without fear of retribution in the name of strategy, aka 75% sleep moves or Speed Parasect.

I demand that everyone be given a fair chance in battle.

Sleep having too much power is not such a way to give power.

If it was, then there'd be Auto-freeze moves too. But there isn't. Even though flame wheel hits through freeze.

Ever wondered why?


Edit:
Upon a rereading of the post, I realize I might seem a little harsh and/or Hostile. I apologize beforehand, it was not my intention to sound either harsh or hostile. I will leave the post unchanged, because every point I wish to make is in it, but I will apologize if I have offended you in any way with this post.
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Last edited by mlugia; 06-17-2004 at 03:23 AM.
  #8  
Old 06-17-2004, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

I think it should change. I plan to get Sleep Talk for my Shuckle and with moves like Constrict amd Withdraw, there's a high chance that Shuckle will use a useless move during Sleep Talk and it will mess up my whole strategy. Otherwise, if there was only 3 attacks it could choose from then I could choose the 3 most useful moves it knows and have a great strat. Also picking 5 moves would be better than the 3 since you'd have more of a range of moves to change from yet you have less of a chance to land on the move you want.
  #9  
Old 06-17-2004, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

First of all, he was talking about the Toxic/Protect/Detect "strategy". And he was right, you were wrong. Using Detect after protect doesnt make Detect's chances 50%. Its still 100%. In other words, when you're using Protect/Detect you cant be hurt.

You said Toxic was a bad move in the urpg. Excuse me????? Toxic is one of the best moves all together if used the right way... Oh and one other thing, URPG does have PP's, just that battles never last long enough to wear them off.

Snore is a good move too, on a right mon.

And for the last part. Jumpluff a killer? PLEASE. Jumpluff is just soooooooo good there are what, 2 of them in the entire URPG? If there is even 2 of them.

Sleeping moves were always good, but no one ever said they were unfair. And with sleep talk and snore around (the way they are right now) there is no need to change anything.

Oh and, just out of my head, Gengar, Jolteon and Alakazam can use Toxic on Jumpluff before he uses the sleeping move... And I'm sure there are many more of them.
  #10  
Old 06-17-2004, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Mag is absolutely right....when u use Protect 100% acc then Detect 100% acc they don't take the acc down from eachother
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Old 06-17-2004, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magare
First of all, he was talking about the Toxic/Protect/Detect "strategy". And he was right, you were wrong. Using Detect after protect doesnt make Detect's chances 50%. Its still 100%. In other words, when you're using Protect/Detect you cant be hurt.
Liar. Have you even tried it on the game carts? I have. And not roms, mind you, real carts, incase you were wondering. That's why Netbattle, GSbot, RSBot, and every respectable site out there such as Azure Heights, Metalloid Research and Gamefaqs tell you that Protect, Detect and Endure work off the same counter. Try it. Don't give me BS.

You said Toxic was a bad move in the urpg. Excuse me????? Toxic is one of the best moves all together if used the right way... Oh and one other thing, URPG does have PP's, just that battles never last long enough to wear them off.
That's not what I read. First off, Rest > Toxic. Secondly, do explain the right way. Thirdly, I wasn't aware that PP are in the URPG, from what I read in the read-first threads for the URPG.

Snore is a good move too, on a right mon.
Name 1.

And for the last part. Jumpluff a killer? PLEASE. Jumpluff is just soooooooo good there are what, 2 of them in the entire URPG? If there is even 2 of them.
Nobody said everyone here's any good at battling and strategy. Or else why would you guys be so afraid to change Sleep talk to how it would actually work in game?

Sleeping moves were always good, but no one ever said they were unfair. And with sleep talk and snore around (the way they are right now) there is no need to change anything.
Do you use scratch on a consistant basis? Will you please remove all moves above 40 power from your pokemon and expect to win your battles? No? Why is snore any different? You do 5% and the opponent rests it off, and laugh. Winner is you? Sleep talk is even more useless. As I have already stated above.

Oh and, just out of my head, Gengar, Jolteon and Alakazam can use Toxic on Jumpluff before he uses the sleeping move... And I'm sure there are many more of them.
Oh, just off the top of my head, Alakazam and Gengar can Ice punch if you were a good battler. Off the top of my head, Electrode, Aerodactyl, Mewtwo, Raikou, Starmie, Ninjask, Sneasal, Persian Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Crobat are all faster than Jumpluff, but notice how most of them can KO Jumpluff instead of wasting a toxic. Common sense says toxic does nothing to Jumpluff if your opponent doesn't suck. And in this case, I'm arguing about having an actually worthy opponent.
Off the top of my head, the Detect/Protect combo was proven false.... a few months after GSC came out, so you guys must be really behind on this.
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  #12  
Old 06-17-2004, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magare
First of all, he was talking about the Toxic/Protect/Detect "strategy". And he was right, you were wrong. Using Detect after protect doesnt make Detect's chances 50%. Its still 100%. In other words, when you're using Protect/Detect you cant be hurt.
Sorry But you are wrong like Mlugia said Protect and Detect work off the same counter. IE Gengar used protect(100%) oppt. does whatever Gengar use Detect(its only 50% this time cause protect and Detect work off the same counter) so using protect and detect to avoid damage is impossible sorry so you are wrong :) If you dont believe me or Mlugia go test it for yourself on the cart
  #13  
Old 06-17-2004, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/jman/protect.html

Anyways, I just would like to note that should any of the protection moves FAIL, then success rate is reset to 100% on the next turn. So Protect, if it fails, then Detect and Endure, along with protect, will have 100% success on the next turn again.
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  #14  
Old 06-17-2004, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

Quote:
Protection moves are put in the same category because of a couple of reasons. The first is that they do as named and somehow protect the using pokemon. They also do not work when used with Substitute. The most important distinction about the group of moves as a whole is that the accuracy of the moves decrease when used consecutively, this includes using a different protection move consecutively. The accuracy decrease percentage scale is as follows (starting with the first use):
As you can see/read or whatever "this includes using a different protection move consecutively.The accuracy decrease percentage scale is as follows." IE:Protect and Detect :)
  #15  
Old 06-19-2004, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Sleep Talk TM

I think most of what u said trying to counter me is worthless. You seem like one of those people who will talk their head off and even though you seem to type alot and it seems convincing, but it's mostly not. I bet i could beat you if you would like to see how sleeptalk works the way it is. You seem to think i'll lose if i use toxic. You think there is no way to get around slping. You also think snore isn't good on anypkmn, when in fact it can kill you in 2 hits from snorlax(I'm not saying how, and they aren't critical hits either). Why not put ur words to action. I have so many ways to avoid sleeping and to deal with slping and I don't put them here cause i don't want newbs to see my strategies. You should battle me so I can show you what to do. I tell you that for one thing, people would be using recover as one of their sleeptalk moves and then the battle will go in favor of that mon so easily. Now you can post your story long response.
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