Member List
Calendar
F.A.Q.
Search
Log Out
Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000  
 

Go Back   Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000 » Other Boards » Discussion

Discussion This is for discussion about current events (news), issues, politics, and any other topics of serious discussion. For more casual talk, go to the Other Chat board. Proper sentences, spelling, and grammar is especially strict in this board.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 04-09-2006, 06:50 PM
InvertrevnI's Avatar
InvertrevnI Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 0 Infinate Loop
Posts: 2,667
Send a message via AIM to InvertrevnI Send a message via MSN to InvertrevnI
Default Re: Stem Cells?

True, this is a major issue, I would have hoped religous and moral views
would have opened to to science by now. :(
__________________
<ENORMOUS SIG WITH IMAGES MADE IN PAINT THAT LOOK LIKE ASS, CAPS, AN OCCASIONAL ああ, AND LINKS THAT NOBODY CARES ABOUT OR WANTS TO CLICK HERE>
URPG
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-09-2006, 10:36 PM
Alonso's Avatar
Alonso Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 913
Send a message via AIM to Alonso
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi
But abortion is a strong issue, so I can see where Charizard is coming from.
Huh? Where do I come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi
I'm Pro-Choice, so I'm not exactly going to have your same opinion. I also think you misunderstood me.

Aborted fetuses should be the ones used for research. They are dead, they can't feel anything, there's no harm done. They would actually be of use then instead of being tossed aside.
There shouldn't be aborted fetuses in the first place. Abortion should be stopped and illegal.

When you say you're pro-choice, are you pro-choice on abortion or in general?
This could've been you.
__________________
PFC: 1891 7646 2647
DFC: 1591 6232 0640
HGFC: 0775 7397 7490
Go to the Anime section




Last edited by Alonso; 04-09-2006 at 10:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-09-2006, 11:08 PM
Seven's Avatar
Seven Offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 929
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Charizard
Huh? Where do I come from?


There shouldn't be aborted fetuses in the first place. Abortion should be stopped and illegal.

When you say you're pro-choice, are you pro-choice on abortion or in general?
This could've been you.
I don't doubt your good intentions, SC, but in the real world you shouldn't just think of your ideals. Abortion WILL happen, outlawing won;t stop that. Sure, in a perfect world ti wouldn't, but we don't live in one.
In Romania, under Ceausescu's rule abortion was illegal. Result: tens of thousands homeless children. Who knows what happened to the mothers.

It's better to live in reality that in a world of ideals.

BUT. this topic isn't on abortion, I know that, just needed to point this out.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-10-2006, 12:17 AM
Alonso's Avatar
Alonso Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 913
Send a message via AIM to Alonso
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven
I don't doubt your good intentions, SC, but in the real world you shouldn't just think of your ideals. Abortion WILL happen, outlawing won;t stop that. Sure, in a perfect world ti wouldn't, but we don't live in one.
In Romania, under Ceausescu's rule abortion was illegal. Result: tens of thousands homeless children. Who knows what happened to the mothers.

It's better to live in reality that in a world of ideals.

BUT. this topic isn't on abortion, I know that, just needed to point this out.
OK this is going farther into another topic but its connected with stem cell research.

If abortion was made illegal in the US then there would be more lawbreakers in the US and prisons will get overcrowded. Then the government will have to take actions to build new prisons (unless what almost happened in Johnny English happens). So there would be a big problem if abortion was made illegal. An economic crisis etc. I just think people should reconsider about abortion and considering that you are playng with another person's life when you are researching stem cells.
__________________
PFC: 1891 7646 2647
DFC: 1591 6232 0640
HGFC: 0775 7397 7490
Go to the Anime section



Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-10-2006, 12:29 AM
InvertrevnI's Avatar
InvertrevnI Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 0 Infinate Loop
Posts: 2,667
Send a message via AIM to InvertrevnI Send a message via MSN to InvertrevnI
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Charizard
OK this is going farther into another topic but its connected with stem cell research.

If abortion was made illegal in the US then there would be more lawbreakers in the US and prisons will get overcrowded. Then the government will have to take actions to build new prisons (unless what almost happened in Johnny English happens). So there would be a big problem if abortion was made illegal. An economic crisis etc. I just think people should reconsider about abortion and considering that you are playng with another person's life when you are researching stem cells.
I have serious doubts about your logic sc, no offence.
__________________
<ENORMOUS SIG WITH IMAGES MADE IN PAINT THAT LOOK LIKE ASS, CAPS, AN OCCASIONAL ああ, AND LINKS THAT NOBODY CARES ABOUT OR WANTS TO CLICK HERE>
URPG
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-10-2006, 12:53 AM
Seawolf's Avatar
Seawolf Offline
I has a stik
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Illium
Posts: 10,894
Send a message via AIM to Seawolf
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Charizard
This could've been you.
I've seen worse. Trying to change my mind with pictures won't help, sorry.

And Pro-Choice means I'm pro-abortion.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-10-2006, 01:44 AM
Alonso's Avatar
Alonso Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 913
Send a message via AIM to Alonso
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi
I've seen worse. Trying to change my mind with pictures won't help, sorry.

And Pro-Choice means I'm pro-abortion.
I didn't want to change your mind but don't you feel anything for the kid that was killed.

And I hate it when people say "if you get raped it's ok!"

Some people say that if men were able to get pregnant then abortion would be completely legal.
__________________
PFC: 1891 7646 2647
DFC: 1591 6232 0640
HGFC: 0775 7397 7490
Go to the Anime section




Last edited by Alonso; 04-10-2006 at 01:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-10-2006, 02:33 AM
Zenaku's Avatar
Zenaku Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: B'ham, England
Posts: 2,137
Send a message via AIM to Zenaku Send a message via MSN to Zenaku Send a message via Yahoo to Zenaku
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Unfortunately, SC, we humans are incapable of Asexual reproduction. Ah, how much simpler life would be if we could reproduce with ourselves; no worrying about hormones.

As for the pictures, they didn't really bother me. Made me want to see more, rather than make me think "OMG that's terrible", as coldhearted as it may sound.

People against stem cells and abortion are constantly moaning about how it's unfair on the fetus, and always ask us how we would feel; what about it? If my birth would have caused unhappiness for my family, I'd rather have not been born. Whether my parents would have hated me, or if they'd have suffered financially, or whatever. I'd prefer not to have been put up for adoption, no matter how nice the people who'd adopt me are.

As such, if I'd have died while I was developing, I'd rather my remains be used to help others than be tossed into the trash as garbage: is that what you prefer for fetus'? I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be treated that way. I doubt any other unborn baby would either. My moms first child was a miscarriage, over 25 years ago, and if stem cell research was around back then, I'd have preferred my older bro/sis to have helped someone too.

Anyway, I'll just go through a basic or two. Stem Cells are blank cells, which take the form of the surrounding cells. A stem cell in the blood turns into a blood cell, and a stem cell in the muscles becomes a muscle cell, if I remember correctly.

By using stem cells, one can replace the cells within the body with newer cells. Yes, this does increase life expectancy, as our life expectancy itself depends on how many times the cells we are born with can go through mitosis (Obviously, the "new" cells that are cloned through mitosis gain weaknesses, which contribute to the loss of sight and hearing potential as we age); replacing cells with completely new cells decreases the age of the body (Hm, if only it could be put to practical use to gain immortality or something like that :P) although it'd hardly make any difference to a population. Yes, more people will survive diseases and the like, but it'd be no different than if they were to survive naturally. Population wouldn't take a big dive unless almost every disease became redundant.

Either way, I think those who rely on the bible should spend less time thinking of the morality of scientific research (As god is not a basis for science) and spend more time trying to make the world a better place. I mean heck, it's because of god that people become terrorists to protect their "beliefs", although this isn't a godly discussion.

Meh, I'm tired.
__________________


As long as we continue to fight, and destroy, we are forever prisoners of our ignorance and foolishness; true 'freedom' does not exist
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-10-2006, 02:36 AM
Kenny_C.002's Avatar
Kenny_C.002 Offline
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hina <3
Posts: 12,268
Send a message via AIM to Kenny_C.002
Default Re: Stem Cells?

NightBreaker:

I should try to be calm about this. You're ignoring the fact that you have stem cells inside you at this current moment. Stem cell research doesn't care whether they're getting stem cells from inside you, or from a source such as a fetus. People cannot forget that we who research stem cells do not use fetuses in our research. We don't need to.

Stem cells have no side effects, since we contain them. If there were adverse side effects to using stem cells, we would already be experiencing this side effect already, and thus would not matter at all.

Also, the use of the idea that HIV, etc. wasn't common in the past was just complete bull. The fact that HIV didn't exist back then isn't even part of the argument. You seem to be forgetting the existence of LEGAL BROTHELS in many parts of the world in the past. Men paid money to have sex with women in brothels. If HIV existed back then, it would have been more like an epidemic.

The dye you mentioned is illegal in most countries. It's been proven to be a carcinogenic from the Aime's Test, and all foods and ingested substances or possible for ingestion even by accident, such as chemicals in labs, are tested for carcinogenicity with the Aime's Test. The foods we buy here in North America are safe enough to not be carcinogenic, as long as they go through the proper procedures (no, illegal chinese imported foods do not count).

I'm going to end several things here first:

Stem cells do not coincide with abortion arguments. They are separate issues.

And the sperm idea: I'm skeptical about that one. I don't think sperm are stem cells themselves (1 sperm = 1 cell). I gues that should be worth research if it turns out to be able to mimic stem cells or something.

Edit: humans can never be immortal due to the cells structure. It's due to apoptosis that humans can survive, and partially this causes senescense (and we don't know why we age aside from that), it's due to the fact that we limit our mitosis that we can survive, and we die because of it. What if we lift that limit to mitosis? We get cancer. :(

Last edited by Kenny_C.002; 04-10-2006 at 02:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-10-2006, 08:59 PM
Alonso's Avatar
Alonso Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 913
Send a message via AIM to Alonso
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
Stem cells do not coincide with abortion arguments. They are separate issues.
They might be different issues but when it comes to hipocrites that say "killing a fetus isn't like killing a person" then it does coincide.

Zenaku has pointed some very good points. I just think that stem cell research should be a no. Yeah I know were saving people but if people continue to live on longer...say 100 is the life expectancy one day...then the world will be severely overpopulated and then the world will have to have China's one child policy. Then aunts, uncles, nephews, cousins, and neices will cease to exist. Just mom, dad, grandmas and grandpas. So stem cell research produces too many other problems.


Religion=Terrorism
__________________
PFC: 1891 7646 2647
DFC: 1591 6232 0640
HGFC: 0775 7397 7490
Go to the Anime section



Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-11-2006, 12:03 AM
Seawolf's Avatar
Seawolf Offline
I has a stik
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Illium
Posts: 10,894
Send a message via AIM to Seawolf
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Charizard
Religion=Terrorism
Ah, too true.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-11-2006, 01:22 AM
Kenny_C.002's Avatar
Kenny_C.002 Offline
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hina <3
Posts: 12,268
Send a message via AIM to Kenny_C.002
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Charizard
They might be different issues but when it comes to hipocrites that say "killing a fetus isn't like killing a person" then it does coincide.

Zenaku has pointed some very good points. I just think that stem cell research should be a no. Yeah I know were saving people but if people continue to live on longer...say 100 is the life expectancy one day...then the world will be severely overpopulated and then the world will have to have China's one child policy. Then aunts, uncles, nephews, cousins, and neices will cease to exist. Just mom, dad, grandmas and grandpas. So stem cell research produces too many other problems.
I understand where you come from, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that 99% of Americans don't know what stem cell research IS to begin with before actually diving into arguments. Those are really pissing me off.

As for the stem cells and living to 100. Surely there is a point in time where overpopulation would be a problem, is what many would say. The only problem with that argument is that the trends in high income countries (HIC) have been showing that birth rates are down significantly. We may even hit a point in the near future where our death rate would exceed birth rate (some countries are already at that point, actually).

The overpopulation argument comes from LIC's, where a single couple have 10 children. That's where the problem of overpopulation is. How do we solve this problem? Well the easy answer is to simply have them advance in their technology, and rasie their standards of living high enough to start following the HIC ways. Of course, this isn't going to happen in the next 10 to 20 generations down the road, so I don't have an answer to that.

As we can see, stem cell research still doesn't change any of those facts. It won't be used in LIC's simply because it's too expensive (and it's impossible for stem cell technology to get to LIC's when clearly drip irrigation technology hasn't even gotten to the LIC's yet...). I really don't see a problem with it, in terms of overpopulation in HIC's (as it really won't be affected), and LIC's (where the technology won't reach them anyway).
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-11-2006, 09:58 PM
Alonso's Avatar
Alonso Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 913
Send a message via AIM to Alonso
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
I understand where you come from, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that 99% of Americans don't know what stem cell research IS to begin with before actually diving into arguments. Those are really pissing me off.

As for the stem cells and living to 100. Surely there is a point in time where overpopulation would be a problem, is what many would say. The only problem with that argument is that the trends in high income countries (HIC) have been showing that birth rates are down significantly. We may even hit a point in the near future where our death rate would exceed birth rate (some countries are already at that point, actually).

The overpopulation argument comes from LIC's, where a single couple have 10 children. That's where the problem of overpopulation is. How do we solve this problem? Well the easy answer is to simply have them advance in their technology, and rasie their standards of living high enough to start following the HIC ways. Of course, this isn't going to happen in the next 10 to 20 generations down the road, so I don't have an answer to that.
Offtopic: What is the connection between MEDCs and LEDCs with HICs and LICs?

As we can see, stem cell research still doesn't change any of those facts. It won't be used in LIC's simply because it's too expensive (and it's impossible for stem cell technology to get to LIC's when clearly drip irrigation technology hasn't even gotten to the LIC's yet...). I really don't see a problem with it, in terms of overpopulation in HIC's (as it really won't be affected), and LIC's (where the technology won't reach them anyway).
I just think no to stem cell research. It shouldn't be done.
__________________
PFC: 1891 7646 2647
DFC: 1591 6232 0640
HGFC: 0775 7397 7490
Go to the Anime section




Last edited by Alonso; 04-11-2006 at 10:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-12-2006, 01:10 AM
Kenny_C.002's Avatar
Kenny_C.002 Offline
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hina <3
Posts: 12,268
Send a message via AIM to Kenny_C.002
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Charizard
I just think no to stem cell research. It shouldn't be done.
The natural question that would stem from here would be "why?"

It cannot be a moral issue, as I said that there is nothing immoral about stem cell research by any religious standard. It cannot be an argument of overpopulation, since overpopulation is in the LIC's, and is more an economic problem than one of science. I'm trying to think of negatives of stem cell research, and it's just not happening.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-17-2006, 01:36 AM
Alonso's Avatar
Alonso Offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 913
Send a message via AIM to Alonso
Default Re: Stem Cells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002
The natural question that would stem from here would be "why?"

It cannot be a moral issue, as I said that there is nothing immoral about stem cell research by any religious standard. It cannot be an argument of overpopulation, since overpopulation is in the LIC's, and is more an economic problem than one of science. I'm trying to think of negatives of stem cell research, and it's just not happening.
Ok...I remember one time it was said that when a mother can't get pregnant and they do the test tube babies where they fertilize outside the body and then put the fertilized egg inside the mother's womb later that many eggs have to be made to ensure that there will be baby because this process in costly. Thus there are many left over embryos after only one is put inside the mother's womb. So what do you do with the leftovers? Well...I guess you contribute them to Stem Cell Research right? But the Catholic Church says not to. But if you don't give them to stem cell research then wtf, there dead anyway, they just go in the trash. So make better use of them right?

Oh and I wrote it wrong. I didn't mean overpopulation. I actually meant that if there is a larger population then we use up a lot more resources...were screwed!
__________________
PFC: 1891 7646 2647
DFC: 1591 6232 0640
HGFC: 0775 7397 7490
Go to the Anime section



Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Style Design: AlienSector.com