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  #16  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

BUt the wholle point is not if you hope their is a heaven it is if there is and if not, what can or would happen to us? Would we be lost endlessly in our life essence? Could our presence still be felt?Or are we just nothing more and none existant no where?
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  #17  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Heh, I like to think that when we die.. What we think is going to happen will happen.

If you think you're going to be reincarnated, you're going to be reincarnated. If you're a Christian, you'll either go to Heavan or Hell. Or if you dig Norse mythology, you'll hang out in Valhalla with the gods.

I think its a cute idea.
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  #18  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finglonger
well after looking up occam's razor that did make sense..heh.but yeah, I get where you're coming from, but I dont neccesarily agree with everything you say. Humans are very limited creatures in some respect.

Lets look at this from a broad point of view, when I was younger I kept a good number of fish as pets, they had a pretty sizeable tank as tanks go, but still I couldn't help but look at them, and wonder how they could possibly stand living in such a limited environment. In retrospect, the tank was probably all the knew...and could they really yearn for something that they had no conception of. Theres something that seperates humans from most other creatures..rational thought. But theres always a tank in which we are trapped. Back in the time of aristotle the simplest explanation for the stars in the sky were that they were crystal orbs, thousands of years ago the simple explanation was that the earth was flat, and in the 19th century Lamarckian inheritance made a lot of sense...besides it was the simple explanation. Simple explanations are not always the best ones. We as humans cannot conceive non-existence, because we have known only existence..we dont know pre-existence, nor do we know post-existence..we know only existence.

Rational thought is a curse, because we have the ability to conceive that someday we wont exist. Its comforting to think we will go somewhere afterwards, instead of rotting in the ground. But we can never know for certain...just because we cant detect a soul doesn't mean there isnt one.

But in the end we are all just fish in some larger tank..my fish were lord of their tank...until they died...then they were just floating corpses. Perhaps they thought of some grand ocean they might go to after death..when really we just flushed them down the toilet..and the only being that wept for their passing was a young boy who missed his scaly companions.
Yeah, I get what you mean about the flaws of Occam's Razor, but even your argument has a few problems. First of all, you claim that years ago, Occam's Razor supported the flat-earth model, as well as the geocentric model. Even without the aid of hindsight tho, it's clear that this wasn't true. Even years ago, Occam's Razor supported round-earth heliocentric. Why? Because the data was never consistent with the geocentric model, nor with the flat-earth. In order to believe in this kind of astronomy, you had to create elaborate explanations for everything; in fact, part of the reason Aristotle's model was dismissed was because Medieval scientists had to continually add unreasonable explanations to it. The only reason the geocentric was kept was because of religious belief. After all, these were extremely dark times where the only unifying force was the Catholic Church. If the dominating doctrine was that earth was a place of suffering, earth being in the middle, or the "lowest" ring made sense. However, this was seen as a given even though it was groundless. So because of a false given, Occam's Razor could not have possibly supported early astronomy. It's not so much a flaw with Occam's Razor as a flaw in its execution.

But in reality, we can't make unreasonable leaps of faith. We shouldn't be blinded to opposing beliefs either, but why believe in something when the only thing that supports it is circumstancial evidence? There are theoretically infinite explanations for any little thing, but there is a reason we believe in some and not others. Albeit, those explanations "cut" by Occam's Razor are still very "possible" but we don't believe in spaceships, unicorns, etc. for a reason. In order to believein an afterlife we'd have to assume that there's a divine entity, there's some place beyond dimension, that thoughts and feelings can somehow be transferred, that a divine entity would be willing to transfer those thoughts, etc. etc. etc. Too many "ifs". A belief in afterlife/reincarnations adds too many prerequisites but contributes an explanation that's no better and perhaps even worse than that of a belief that death is simply the end.

So, I'm completely open to the possibility of reincarnation or an afterlife. I have to admit it's even a plausible idea. But from looking at what I know and what I can deduce from that, it seems to me that nothingness after death is the most probable.
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  #19  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

It's fairly obvious! When we die, we have a funeral and then we are either buried or cremated! (Or we could be frozen... Or we could be used as a cadavour for university biology students... There are soooo many possibilities!)
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  #20  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

This is a disuccion about after we die after all that stuff like tif there is an afterlife, this is a seriouse discussion so enless you have something intelligant to say
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  #21  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finglonger

I'm reading Dante's Divine comedy right now...Its incredibly interesting to see how the western contemporary views of an afterlife can trace their roots all the way back to it. I'm only on the inferno right now, but I can see a very apparent connection..and its rather funny.
That's amusing - I'm also in the middle of reading Inferno, and I know what you mean. 16th century religious views were so much more harsh than current dogmas.


---

First of all, Neo is right about that fact that none of us know (or could ever know while we're still alive), what happens to us after death. What this discussion is really about is what we believe happens after death.

Personally, I do believe that there is a Heaven and Hell, that death is only a natural part of life that one should look foreward to.

Though I do agree to an extent thatthe belief in the afterlife is connected to the support of evangelism, I think that this is a decidedly postive thing, rather than something to be shunned or scorned. As is true of all facets of faith, belief in Heaven and Hell really boils down to optimism. It's like they say "ignorance is bliss", and while I usually don't like that saying, I think its very appropriate for this topic.

Heaven may exist (as I believe it does), but whether or not you think it does doesn't change that. So why worry about it? Isn't it better to be optimistic, and try to live life to the fullest?
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  #22  
Old 01-22-2006, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Heh, belief in heaven & hell is optimism, and that optimism lets you live life to the fullest? Isn't it just the opposite? Doesn't a belief in afterlife encourage one to be content with mediocrity? Marx, for one, certainly believed that religion simply limited the proletariat. After all, if they're concerned with progressing into the afterlife, they're going to be fine with living crappy lives for just a few years (when compared with eternity). This "optimism" you speak of encourages laziness and tells people to be complacent with terrible living standards.

Oh, and of course, the idea of burning forever in hell is certainly optimistic. Yes, I really want to purge my sins through pain. Yes, so optimistic. That's going to encourage me to live life to the fullest, not to take every unnecessary method in order to avoid a hell that may or may not exist.

Also, you seem to be implying Pascal's Gambit. Ugh, I'll just point out some of its basic flaws before anyone else refers to it by name. It ONLY WORKS if the assumption is of a Christian God. Hey, guess what, if it's some other deity that looks upon heathens without mercy, guess what, you just wasted your life devoted to Christianity only to burn in hell. You're going to hell just like the other atheists, only you suffered during life on the belief that the afterlife would be better. Those who believed life was just life, though, enjoyed it cause they knew it was limited. Good Game.
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  #23  
Old 01-22-2006, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Donít get me wrong, the idea of reincarnation and Heaven co-existing is really just meant to be hypothetical, but itís pretty doubtful as SK already explained.

You may request for proof and ask ďI need to see it before I can believe itĒ but like Finglonger pointed out, we are in a limited context, a context that isnít privileged to see beyond dimensions or witness what is celestial. Even the Bible (whether you choose to believe it or not) explains that there are things we arenít meant to see. In the Old Testament, anyone who looked upon God would instantly die.

We can only just barely explore our own solar system, never mind what may exist many light years away. You can say that Heaven doesnít exist until thereís proof, but you canít prove that Heaven does not exist the same way around in the same context. So with that said, you canít deny that the perception of Heaven isnít a plausible idea. Many millions of people take refuge and security that such an idea of pleasure after life is over exists. And the same goes for losing it. If we really didnít believe in eternal happiness or eternal punishment, what really would stop people from killing anyone they pleased without prosecution of the law? If there was no such existence, then what force would be stopping and making people think twice about murdering someone? Why stop for human compassion or empathy when itís obvious the motive for revenge and greed is obviously taking prescient in the moment? What makes you wonder that in some of your lifeís most critical moments, faith in what can be there but not seen naturally comes into play? What makes you stop, what makes you reconsider, and drives you to make a different choice than what your pure anger is telling you to do?

Hence, thatís why I believe. Thereís something far, far beyond the normal guise of basic, feral human reactions and considerations. If there was no faith, then people would do whatever simple idea came to them, no matter how brutal it was. If people didnít believe in a world after death, some kind of reward for living an honest life, then what would be the purpose in being honest and truthful? Why not exploit every working facet of mankind to get whatever you wanted? Why not when you have nothing to lose if thatís what you believe?

Donít mind me saying this, but thereís a reason why we donít all butcher each other out of our own misguided selfishness with the thought that we have nothing to loseÖ
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  #24  
Old 01-22-2006, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

It's funny how people type such long posts about matters that don't really need to be discussed. Since none know what happens after you die, as was mentioned before, why waste your time debating...

As for my part, I don't really care what happens after I die, the people I love have already died as well, or stay alive after I have died and without people you love, there is no point in living. I would like to see Heaven, if there is one, and I myself believe there is the Heaven/Hell concept, but there's no point in kicking religions here because everyone believes what they want to and no one can change that.

Meh, I felt like that sounded extremely stupid after the intelligent posts of sk, Neo and Fing, but heck, that's just my opinion.
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  #25  
Old 01-22-2006, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

before anyone gets insulted, let me just say that you shouldn't take meanings from my response that aren't actually there.


To NP: That's why I reiterate my belief that atheists have transcended natural limitations. Some people need religion so that they don't fall to their worst instincts. However, I think others don't need those kinds of beliefs, because they have a sort of intellectual mindset that encourages ethical and moral behavior without any real reason other than that it is the "right" thing to do. I, personally, don't kill or rape people because I can understand what it would be like if something was done to me. Some may need religion to replace that thought process, like Neo said. I don't. After a certain age, I think every person has the potential to evolve beyond this fable, but some do need it.


And if you seriously can't accept that some are naturally good, then the real reason we don't do certain things is because of social conditioning. Society breeds us to do this or do that. These morals may be based on religious ideas, but that doesn't certify an afterlife. Social constructs mold our psyche. Clearly, they can be broken, since people do kill, they do rape, they do go out of control, but in general, the pressures of society are enough to prevent someone from doing something. It could be a subconscious installation of the status quo, it could be the clear and present fear of the law. Whatever, we're all digressing from the point really; we're discussing the human psyche now and not the afterlife.


As with most religious debates, science explains a lot but it has its limits. Then we go to the "you can't prove this" "but you can't prove that it's not this" debate. But then again, can we really prove the nonexistance of anything? Can we really prove the nonexistance of leprechauns, unicorns, fairies? How do we know that hobbits don't hide themselves magically in the forest every time we are close to discovering their existence? The thing is, religion is designed to be inexplicable and thus beyond the realm of explanation. It's a myth deliberately designed to exist beyond everything that we see, hear, or deduce. If we're going to focus on the inability to prove or disprove anything, we certainly should not focus on Christian religion, one of infinite plausible ideas. In reality, the only difference between religion & superstition is that one is far more common.




IT: what, we can't even peacefully share our contrasting ideas anymore? Of course hardly anybody's going to change. Most people are stubborn, but they want to hear the views of their opponents, perhaps to solidify their own stance, perhaps to reconsider their own views. If we didn't think, if we didn't communicate, what would separate us from any other organism?
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  #26  
Old 01-22-2006, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssk1911
Heh, belief in heaven & hell is optimism, and that optimism lets you live life to the fullest? Isn't it just the opposite? Doesn't a belief in afterlife encourage one to be content with mediocrity? Marx, for one, certainly believed that religion simply limited the proletariat. After all, if they're concerned with progressing into the afterlife, they're going to be fine with living crappy lives for just a few years (when compared with eternity). This "optimism" you speak of encourages laziness and tells people to be complacent with terrible living standards.
No, not at all. At least in Christian tradtion (and I also think this is one of the teachings that is common to most, if not all, religions), one should try to be as Christlike as possible, to ensure that one will go to Heaven. In that system, people are encouraged to do good, to make the most out of life. There are boundless examples if you don't believe me.

Quote:
Oh, and of course, the idea of burning forever in hell is certainly optimistic. Yes, I really want to purge my sins through pain. Yes, so optimistic. That's going to encourage me to live life to the fullest, not to take every unnecessary method in order to avoid a hell that may or may not exist.
You seem to have missed the point completely, sk. If one is repetent, than they will not go to Hell. The belief in Hell can be seen as an icentive for repentance, a reason to act and live with goodness, tied to that optimism that one will be better off doing good than not.

Quote:
Also, you seem to be implying Pascal's Gambit. Ugh, I'll just point out some of its basic flaws before anyone else refers to it by name. It ONLY WORKS if the assumption is of a Christian God. Hey, guess what, if it's some other deity that looks upon heathens without mercy, guess what, you just wasted your life devoted to Christianity only to burn in hell. You're going to hell just like the other atheists, only you suffered during life on the belief that the afterlife would be better. Those who believed life was just life, though, enjoyed it cause they knew it was limited. Good Game.
Though I assure you I've never heard the term "Pascal's Gambit" before making that post, I've since done a bit of reading on it, and I concur that my views are very similar to Pascal's....and frankly, in my opinion, those "flaws" you speak of are just a bunch of BS.

I believe that there is one God (and do recognize the distinct possiblilty that it could be one group of Gods, despite the fact that I don't personally believe it), who is worshipped by all religions. Though the names of God and traditions surrounding specific theologies differ greatly across the globe, I think that those differences lie solely in man, no with the Divine.

I don't buy into the idea that the Christian God is different being than Allah of Islam, or the spirits of Shintoism - it's all the same. The idea that one must worship the one that does exist as a requirement for salvation is just plain stupid, and I refuse to recognize any validity in such garbage.

I also don't believe that all atheists will go to Hell. If they recognize the existance of God in purgatory after death and repent, than they too will be saved.

So "Pascal's Gamibt", as you call it, can certainly work with any concept of God.
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i wish all of you americans would get out of my country.
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Last edited by Alakazam; 01-22-2006 at 04:46 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01-22-2006, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssk1911
IT: what, we can't even peacefully share our contrasting ideas anymore? Of course hardly anybody's going to change. Most people are stubborn, but they want to hear the views of their opponents, perhaps to solidify their own stance, perhaps to reconsider their own views. If we didn't think, if we didn't communicate, what would separate us from any other organism?
I never said you couldn't share your ideas, I just said that to my mind it is pointless in this case.

But please, feel free to continue the debate, I haven't read a debate as intelligent as this for a while. I know you, sk, would spruce up the debate section.
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  #28  
Old 01-22-2006, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

I think there's a heaven and a hell.You commit a sin you no where you're going if you don't do anything bad you can go to heaven hopefully,and if you're not accepted into any or don't belive you're dead you become a ghost.
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  #29  
Old 01-22-2006, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

I think thats very optomistic, at one point ot another everyone sins, I sin but does that mean I'm a bad person, no. If we take into account all the poeple that sin and if we assume there is a heaven and hell than in one way or another everyone is going to hell. If you look at other religiones they define sin differently, what may be a sin in christianity might be perfectly fine in Buhdiasm and visa versa . That is one of the main flaws i see in the whole heaven hell controversy. We humans are very one dimensional and weak minded. Most of the time we only see things our way. So my question to you now is, can you explain why sin is bad, god supposibly made us in his own vision, he basicly gave us the ablity to sin. Does that make god a sinner? Let me hear what you have to say
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  #30  
Old 01-28-2006, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: What Happens when we die?

I don't really know what to think of an afterlife. On the one hand, non-existance seems to be the most "logical", on the other hand...I don't know. I have this "feeling" of certainty that there is more than just this XD. But like, that's hardly an argument in a discussion like this.
Anyway, provided there IS an afterlife, I definetely do NOT believe in the concept of hell/heaven. I believe everyone just goes to the same place, regardless of actions in the earthly life. The concept of so-called lessons that need to be learned appeals to me also, it just seems so...I don't know, logical in some freaky way I guess :\. To finish my beliefs-in-a-nutshell of, reincarnation is possible, and happens just when "you" feel like living again.

On a side note, for the peope who believe in hell, I honestly do not understand (not sarcasticly, I just honestly do not understand), how one can believe that the god who is the father of all of us would punish his own children with eternity in hell for not following his set rules. I would not want such a father, that's for sure.

Anyway. Useless post. Because either way no one knowz.

Last edited by Seven; 01-31-2006 at 10:53 PM.
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