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  #46  
Old 07-19-2011, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
There's a huge difference between not caring and not being able to infringe on State rights. If you honestly can't see that, then you are just being foolish.
Pfft. If the Fed wanted to get involved they would. The only rights states get are the ones that Washington wants to give them.
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  #47  
Old 07-19-2011, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Pfft. If the Fed wanted to get involved they would. The only rights states get are the ones that Washington wants to give them.
What country are you from? Because if you're from the States, you are one of the reasons why I weep for the future of this country. You lack a fundamental understanding of the expressed, implied, and inherent powers laid out by the Constitution.
  #48  
Old 07-19-2011, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
What country are you from? Because if you're from the States, you are one of the reasons why I weep for the future of this country. You lack a fundamental understanding of the expressed, implied, and inherent powers laid out by the Constitution.
And you lack a realistic view of modern American politics. The Federal government is supreme over the states. We had a whole civil war over that. If the political will existed in Washington to either make homosexual marriage legal or illegal across the 50 states, then it would. The opinion of the states on the matter is irrelevant. Politically, the vagueness of the Constitution means that it is far less important than the feelings of the people at the time.
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Last edited by Lusankya; 07-19-2011 at 03:34 AM.
  #49  
Old 07-19-2011, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
And you lack a realistic view of modern American politics. The Federal government is supreme over the states. We had a whole civil war over that. If the political will existed in Washington to either make homosexual marriage legal or illegal across the 50 states, then it would. The opinion of the states on the matter is irrelevant. Politically, the vagueness of the Constitution means that it is far less important than the feelings of the people at the time.
It is not I who is wrong in this argument. While the Federal Government is supreme over the States, there are powers which the Feds do not possess that are given to the States. The Feds cannot over-step these boundaries directly. One thing the Federal Government could do is threaten to cut off a State's funding if they did not allow gay marriage, however this seems like a waste of time and money because the issue will eventually sort itself out. The States have jurisdiction over marriage in their State, get over it.
  #50  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

Being bisexual myself, I full out support gay marriage. To me, love is love, and it's dependant on emotion, not what's in your pants. Of course, that's just my views.
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  #51  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
It is not I who is wrong in this argument. While the Federal Government is supreme over the States, there are powers which the Feds do not possess that are given to the States. The Feds cannot over-step these boundaries directly. One thing the Federal Government could do is threaten to cut off a State's funding if they did not allow gay marriage, however this seems like a waste of time and money because the issue will eventually sort itself out. The States have jurisdiction over marriage in their State, get over it.
The federal government can change what it can legally do. The states can't; or at least they won't win vs the Fed if the Fed doesn't like it. Or the Fed can just flat out ignore it, as it has many times in the past. It wouldn't be the first time Washington's taken away rights from the states. The states have jurisdiction because the Federal government allows it. It's not expressly stated in the Constitution that marriage must be the jurisdiction of the states, and even if it was, the Fed could make an amendment or just simply ignore it, since the Constitution only has meaning if the government cares about it. Sorry that the cluster**** of actual government doesn't match up to your high-minded ideals.
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Dali: "I know what the picture should be ... We take a duck and put some dynamite in its derriere. When the duck explodes, I jump and you take the picture."
Halsman: "Don't forget that we are in America. We will be put in prison if we start exploding ducks."
Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."

Last edited by Lusankya; 07-20-2011 at 02:34 AM.
  #52  
Old 07-20-2011, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

Read all of this, and still tell me we don't deserve the right to love.
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Last edited by Kayla Ann; 07-20-2011 at 03:04 AM.
  #53  
Old 07-20-2011, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
The federal government can change what it can legally do. The states can't; or at least they won't win vs the Fed if the Fed doesn't like it. Or the Fed can just flat out ignore it, as it has many times in the past. It wouldn't be the first time Washington's taken away rights from the states. The states have jurisdiction because the Federal government allows it. It's not expressly stated in the Constitution that marriage must be the jurisdiction of the states, and even if it was, the Fed could make an amendment or just simply ignore it, since the Constitution only has meaning if the government cares about it. Sorry that the cluster**** of actual government doesn't match up to your high-minded ideals.
So far, the Feds still cannot pass gay marriage, and yet the state Massachusetts passed the gay marriage law. Sorry to inform you mate, but the Feds cannot interfere with state affairs.

Also, why do you have to be such an ass? I am just asking. Like, whenever anybody argues with you, you insult them. I am starting to wonder why you are a moderator.
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Last edited by Teddiursa of the Sky; 07-20-2011 at 10:21 AM.
  #54  
Old 07-20-2011, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
The federal government can change what it can legally do. The states can't; or at least they won't win vs the Fed if the Fed doesn't like it. Or the Fed can just flat out ignore it, as it has many times in the past. It wouldn't be the first time Washington's taken away rights from the states. The states have jurisdiction because the Federal government allows it. It's not expressly stated in the Constitution that marriage must be the jurisdiction of the states, and even if it was, the Fed could make an amendment or just simply ignore it, since the Constitution only has meaning if the government cares about it. Sorry that the cluster**** of actual government doesn't match up to your high-minded ideals.
That is the only part in your entire post that you've been correct. That is known as an inherent power, because the Constitution does not give it to the Feds or deny it to the States it belongs to the States. This is why the Federal government cannot interfere.

Sorry that you have some sort of warped delusion about how the American system of government works.

Also, just because the Feds have the power to do something, doesn't mean that they should. It's a state issue. At the same time, the Feds not doing anything should not be recognized as them "being lazy" or "not caring", they know it's a state issue.

@Kayla Ann - I'm not sure if that article was supposed to be directed at me. If so, I'd like to point out that I'm not arguing against gay marriage. I'm pro-gay marriage, but I think it's a State issue.

Last edited by Orthar; 07-20-2011 at 11:11 AM.
  #55  
Old 07-20-2011, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

The federal government actually does have some policies concerning gay marriage already, and there has been a push for pro-gay marriage legislation at the federal level. It is possible, and someday it will happen; that's actually one of the HRC's top goals. I think it's actually more a matter of when than if. They'll say "it's unconstitutional to deny rights to same-sex couples", or something to that effect, and bam.

You see, it's only a state power if the federal government hasn't said anything on the issue. True, the idea of state rights is correct in theory, but it's not the reality. It's just an ideal. Lusankya is actually right. The federal government can do whatever it wants.
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  #56  
Old 07-20-2011, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Sorry to inform you mate, but the Feds cannot interfere with state affairs.
All of American history is a long, slow trend of Federal power taking away state power bit by bit by bit starting from the very founding of this country. Do you have anything outside of theory to back up your claim?

Also, "high-minded ideals" is hardly an insult. It's a statement of fact, that could even be interpreted positively. I've nothing against idealists; I'm quite idealistic in some regards myself. As to "clusterf***", that's referring to the government, not anyone here. Maybe you just seek to interpret everything I say as insults...?

Quote:
That is the only part in your entire post that you've been correct. That is known as an inherent power, because the Constitution does not give it to the Feds or deny it to the States it belongs to the States. This is why the Federal government cannot interfere.

Sorry that you have some sort of warped delusion about how the American system of government works.

Also, just because the Feds have the power to do something, doesn't mean that they should. It's a state issue. At the same time, the Feds not doing anything should not be recognized as them "being lazy" or "not caring", they know it's a state issue.
Federal Marriage Amendment says hi. So yes, Congress has already tried to make gay marriage illegal across the 50 states (5 times actually), but it failed due to it obviously being an overly-Republican measure (not, as you might argue, due to conflicts with the Consitution; the measure simply failed to receive support from Democrats). Furthermore, the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act and DOMA already prove that Congress has exercised regulation over marriage in the past, making any kind of claim that marriage is solely determined by the states laughable. So yeah, if it weren't for partisan politics that gay marriage would already be out of the hands of the states. Hence, the history does not match up to the theory. The reason why the Fed hasn't made up its mind on the gay rights issue is because of partisan politics, not because they want to leave the issue to the states. Whenever the Fed leaves an issue to the states, it's because it can't make up its mind; not the other way around. You've very much got cause and effect mixed up. The Constitution doesn't stop the Federal government from doing anything; free speech was limited in the World Wars, right to trial in the Civil War, and the Congress's right to declare war has essentially become ignored ever since WWII. Constitutions must be defended by people, and thus it is people who give the right of determination of marriage to the states, not a document.
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Last edited by Lusankya; 07-20-2011 at 02:06 PM.
  #57  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
All of American history is a long, slow trend of Federal power taking away state power bit by bit by bit starting from the very founding of this country. Do you have anything outside of theory to back up your claim?

Also, "high-minded ideals" is hardly an insult. It's a statement of fact, that could even be interpreted positively. I've nothing against idealists; I'm quite idealistic in some regards myself. As to "clusterf***", that's referring to the government, not anyone here. Maybe you just seek to interpret everything I say as insults...?



Federal Marriage Amendment says hi. So yes, Congress has already tried to make gay marriage illegal across the 50 states (5 times actually), but it failed due to it obviously being an overly-Republican measure (not, as you might argue, due to conflicts with the Consitution; the measure simply failed to receive support from Democrats). Furthermore, the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act and DOMA already prove that Congress has exercised regulation over marriage in the past, making any kind of claim that marriage is solely determined by the states laughable. So yeah, if it weren't for partisan politics that gay marriage would already be out of the hands of the states. Hence, the history does not match up to the theory. The reason why the Fed hasn't made up its mind on the gay rights issue is because of partisan politics, not because they want to leave the issue to the states. Whenever the Fed leaves an issue to the states, it's because it can't make up its mind; not the other way around. You've very much got cause and effect mixed up. The Constitution doesn't stop the Federal government from doing anything; free speech was limited in the World Wars, right to trial in the Civil War, and the Congress's right to declare war has essentially become ignored ever since WWII. Constitutions must be defended by people, and thus it is people who give the right of determination of marriage to the states, not a document.
Point taken. I suppose I am more idealistic when it comes to American politics, but I do enjoy playing Devil's Advocate time to time.
  #58  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Point taken. I suppose I am more idealistic when it comes to American politics, but I do enjoy playing Devil's Advocate time to time.
I must admit, I thought the same way you did until recently.
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Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."
  #59  
Old 07-20-2011, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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@Kayla Ann - I'm not sure if that article was supposed to be directed at me. If so, I'd like to point out that I'm not arguing against gay marriage. I'm pro-gay marriage, but I think it's a State issue.
Oh no no! I wasn't directing it at anyone specific. I just wanted people who are against gay marriage to read it, and try to understand how it feels to get your rights taken away.
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  #60  
Old 07-20-2011, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
All of American history is a long, slow trend of Federal power taking away state power bit by bit by bit starting from the very founding of this country. Do you have anything outside of theory to back up your claim?
That does not keep it from being a State affair, which it is.
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