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  #61  
Old 07-19-2011, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

However, perhaps Mr. Dawkins could help explain my point a bit more.
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  #62  
Old 07-19-2011, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
However, perhaps Mr. Dawkins could help explain my point a bit more.
Listened to him, and he is quite a good man. Though, I do disagree with him on a few of his points of view. He is far more intellectual that many people though, and that is what I like about him. I also agree with his evidence argument, however, when he provides his evidence, he can then argue about it.

I quite perfectly get your argument. But if you spout out a contradiction as though it is fact - Example being, "Gawd don't exist," - You must back it up. I do also believe that the religious need to back up their point of view with facts, mind you. I simply think one of the sides need to find their evidence before they argue about it.

I'd also like if you watch this. It has Dawkins in it, and the conversation is quite interesting. Watched it with my brother, and we both love it. Father George also has the guts to admit in him believing in a God without any proof, which I totally support.
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I am right that both of Atheists and Theists have no proof. The evidence is right there in front of your eyes. Why would you argue if you have nothing to back up your argument? If you mean I have proof for God's possible existence, that would mean you obviously have not understood my argument all along.

What is so hard about this sentence, and grasping it: If you have no evidence to disprove or prove God's existence, there is no point in arguing about it until actual proof is presented.

As for Lusankya. Ahaha, my boy. You are so intellectual for arguing an argument in which you do not have proof.
I am absolutely astounded at the difficulty you have in grasping a very simple concept. Is it willful ignorance, or simply ignorance? It has never, ever, been a matter of proof. It's impossible to prove that God doesn't exist because of his very definition. That's irrelevant. It's a matter of logic. It's a matter of applying the same set of principles and beliefs that you use for everything else in your life, to this. To do otherwise is to be a self-contradicting hypocrite. Objectively, there is no difference between believing in God and believing in any other concept. So why does the concept of a supernatural deity deserve a special set of principles?

Occam's Razor states that in the absence of other factors, the simplest explanation is the best. To use an example: while it is possible to explain the motion of the heavenly bodies as centered around the Earth, to do so is more complex and requires more assumptions that to explain the motion of the planets as centered around the Sun. In this case, both hypotheses are equal in correctly predicting the motion of the planets, but one is simpler, and hence, we say that the Earth and the other planets revolve around the Sun, rather than vice versa. This is directly analogous to the hypothesis that there is a supernatural deity that governs all existence. While this hypothesis is certainly capable of explaining everyday occurrences, it requires more assumptions than the negative hypothesis.

Everyone uses Occam's Razor (or a variation thereof) for their internal system of self-beliefs. It is why you don't believe in pixies, or half-octopus people, or that internal combustion engines are run by little invisible sprites that breathe fire. After all, it is impossible to go about life assuming every theoretical concept exists in reality. However, for whatever reason, you (agnostics) do not apply this logical principle to one certain concept: God. That is a self-contradiction. That is hypocrisy. If you are fine with being a hypocrite, then there is no issue. I, however, prefer to avoid having beliefs that contradict each other. Hence, I do not believe in God. There being no proof for God's nonexistence is irrelevant. While I certainly must acknowledge that there is a possibility that God exists, I must also acknowledge that there is the possibility that Mexico will annex the United States in the near future. After all, I do not have enough information to definitively rule out one or the other. However, that is no reason to go about my daily life assuming that the United States will become a province of Mexico tomorrow. You are making the mistake of interpreting my statement of belief as absolute, whereas in truth, as in all scientific statement of beliefs, it is only absolute within the set of principles that it exists in. If I received irrefutable proof that God exists, that set of principles would change, as would my statement of belief, the same as when a scientific theory changes or is discarded when new evidence comes up that refutes it.
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  #64  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
It's impossible to prove that God doesn't exist because of his very definition. That's irrelevant. It's a matter of logic. It's a matter of applying the same set of principles and beliefs that you use for everything else in your life, to this. To do otherwise is to be a self-contradicting hypocrite. Objectively, there is no difference between believing in God and believing in any other concept. So why does the concept of a supernatural deity deserve a special set of principles?
There is already plenty of evidence pointing closer to the non-existence of God than there is pointing to the existence of such a being. It has always been a matter of proof. Try reading The God Delusion, The Grand Design, or simply watching Richard Dawkin's interviews with people.

As I said before, it is up to the person to decide on accepting the evidence.

Also, love the first few sentences. Very intellectual.
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  #65  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
There is already plenty of evidence pointing closer to the non-existence of God than there is pointing to the existence of such a being. It has always been a matter of proof. Try reading The God Delusion, The Grand Design, or simply watching Charles Dawkin's interviews with people.

As I said before, it is up to the person to decide on accepting the evidence.

Also, love the first few sentences. Very intellectual.
...Richard Dawkins. Charles Darwin.
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  #66  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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...Richard Dawkins. Charles Darwin.
Ahaha! My bad! I do tend to get the two names mixed up! Lol!
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  #67  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
There is already plenty of evidence pointing closer to the non-existence of God than there is pointing to the existence of such a being. It has always been a matter of proof. Try reading The God Delusion, The Grand Design, or simply watching Richard Dawkin's interviews with people.

As I said before, it is up to the person to decide on accepting the evidence.

Also, love the first few sentences. Very intellectual.
Evidence is not proof. God cannot be definitively be proven to exist because by definition he is said to exist outside the realm of human logic. It is the same reason why I cannot prove that there is not an undetectable unicorn in my room because by definition, it is undetectable. And it is of course, totally your own decision to retain self-contradictory beliefs.
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  #68  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Evidence is not proof. God cannot be definitively be proven to exist because by definition he is said to exist outside the realm of human logic. It is the same reason why I cannot prove that there is not an undetectable unicorn in my room because by definition, it is undetectable. And it is of course, totally your own decision to retain self-contradictory beliefs.
By definition he is unable to be explained by logic. Science is not just logic, it is natural observation, where as religion is nothing by logic (sometimes flawed, sometimes not). Science has already come very close to explaining the start of the very Universe without the need of a Maker.

I love how you mock religion via a Unicorn. Don't tell me it sounds as logical as an invisible man. When the average person thinks of a Unicorn, he thinks of this xD
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  #69  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
By definition he is unable to be explained by logic. Science is not just logic, it is natural observation, where as religion is nothing by logic (sometimes flawed, sometimes not). Science has already come very close to explaining the start of the very Universe without the need of a Maker.

I love how you mock religion via a Unicorn. Don't tell me it sounds as logical as an invisible man. When the average person thinks of a Unicorn, he thinks of this xD
Fine; God exists, by definition, outside the realm of science.

And what makes you say that a invisible bearded dude in the sky that spoke the universe into existence and watches everything that you do is any more logical than an invisible unicorn?
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Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."
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  #70  
Old 07-19-2011, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Fine; God exists, by definition, outside the realm of science.

And what makes you say that a invisible bearded dude in the sky that spoke the universe into existence and watches everything that you do is any more logical than an invisible unicorn?
If you didn't click on the link, you didn't get the joke, which makes you so very, very boring and too serious.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Why don't you ask him?
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  #71  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:43 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Yes I do believe in God, but not because was "brought up" to.

I'm not saying it's the right religion, but It's my opinion.
Here in America, a lot of people believe in God.
In all honesty, I don't know one athiest that I've met, like not the ones online.

I feel that the world was created by the "Big Bang" Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
1) There was a HUGE explosion and then the planets are just "there"?
2) If there was nothing until the explosiuon happened, who created the explosion? It's not just "a random" thing, that makes no sense.
3) The evolution theory makes sense, but who created the Bacterium ETC to evolve? It's not just "There".

Honestly, I could be all wrong, I'm not much on how the planet was created or anything, because I think God created it and all of that.
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  #72  
Old 07-20-2011, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Shiny Jolteon View Post
Yes I do believe in God, but not because was "brought up" to.

I'm not saying it's the right religion, but It's my opinion.
Here in America, a lot of people believe in God.
In all honesty, I don't know one athiest that I've met, like not the ones online.

I feel that the world was created by the "Big Bang" Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
1) There was a HUGE explosion and then the planets are just "there"?
2) If there was nothing until the explosiuon happened, who created the explosion? It's not just "a random" thing, that makes no sense.
3) The evolution theory makes sense, but who created the Bacterium ETC to evolve? It's not just "There".

Honestly, I could be all wrong, I'm not much on how the planet was created or anything, because I think God created it and all of that.
You have to keep in mind they didn't just "appear." The very creation of Earth (a small planet in comparison to other planets we have observed) took billions of years for all the elements to combine. The Universe was much, much smaller at the time as well. The Universe expands very rapidly, and for some reason, is starting to accelerate.

It's not a question of WHO created the explosion. We know WHAT created the explosion.

Yes, you are write, the Bacterium were not JUST there. They were also a billion year process. There are plenty areas in which the elements failed to combine in the Universe, observe Nebulas for instance. However, Bacteria are interesting because the right elements that gave life combined. That is to say, the only elements we know about at this moment. There could be life in other areas of the Universe running on totally different elements.

See, the problem is, you do not fully comprehend the Big Bang Theory, or Evolution.

Also, Evolution is definitely real. How the heck else do you think people adapt to situations? That, right there, is apart of Evolution. You simply learning something is Evolution.

I suggest reading The Grand Design. It is a very interesting and informative book by Stephen Hawking.
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Last edited by Teddiursa of the Sky; 07-20-2011 at 10:03 AM.
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  #73  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiny Jolteon View Post
Yes I do believe in God, but not because was "brought up" to.

I'm not saying it's the right religion, but It's my opinion.
Here in America, a lot of people believe in God.
In all honesty, I don't know one athiest that I've met, like not the ones online.

I feel that the world was created by the "Big Bang" Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
1) There was a HUGE explosion and then the planets are just "there"?
2) If there was nothing until the explosiuon happened, who created the explosion? It's not just "a random" thing, that makes no sense.
3) The evolution theory makes sense, but who created the Bacterium ETC to evolve? It's not just "There".

Honestly, I could be all wrong, I'm not much on how the planet was created or anything, because I think God created it and all of that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Be educated!

Quote:
How the heck else do you think people adapt to situations? That, right there, is apart of Evolution. You simply learning something is Evolution.
Technically, biological evolution (which is the kind of evolution we're discussing here) is the change in the traits of a population, not an individual. So merely learning and adapting over a single generation is not evolution; adaptation across generations, is.
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Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."
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  #74  
Old 07-20-2011, 03:02 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post



Technically, biological evolution (which is the kind of evolution we're discussing here) is the change in the traits of a population, not an individual. So merely learning and adapting over a single generation is not evolution; adaptation across generations, is.

Meh. You are right. Still, it is a form of evolution which should be recognized. As a matter of fact, that very evolution gave birth to religion in the first place.
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  #75  
Old 07-22-2011, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

I'm going to explain my viewpoints with a simple response to Lus's Occam's Razor challenge.

Occam's Razor dictates that when two hypotheses are equal in all other respects, the one which makes the fewest assumptions should be treated as most likely. Thus, in the question of whether God exists, we must examine the universe itself, and question which makes more sense given the unknowns, of which there are a hell of a lot.

God does not exist
If God does not exist, I must assume that organic material randomly formed together some billions of years ago into the first life form through means that we don't even know of.
If God does not exist, I must assume that life carried along the evolutionary path that it did without any form of guidance, resulting in the biological makeup of the earth as it is today, including humanity exactly as we are.
If God does not exist, I must assume that there somehow, incomprehensibly, the universe binds itself to the strict and rigid set of rules commonly referred to as "physics," despite nothing actively enforcing that.

God does exist
If God does exist, I must assume nothing other than that God does exist. This assumption accounts for essentially all of the various questions posed above, as well as others I did not write in a desire to be brief.

Now, going purely by numbers, Occam's Razor dictates God must exist, because I only need to assume one thing. However, given the scale, I would say that "God exists" is an assumption on ridiculous magnitude by comparison to the others. Thus, I take the view that it's not something that can be properly judged. I am an agnostic, because in the absence of possibility of proof Occam's Razor dictates that the two possibilities are essentially equal. No God requires a ridiculous number of assumptions, while God requires one very, very big one.
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