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  #226  
Old 10-02-2011, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
Your statement is just as flawed as mine, we are both only looking at one aspect of what religion does. Where as I focus on all the terrible things religion has done, and will continue to do, you tend to look at the positives and completely ignore the negatives. I'm pessimistic in nature, and it would appear from your post that you are rather optimistic. There is nothing that's going to change this for either of us. To answer your question, I'd have to backup a bit and clarify. I think there was a time in human history where we did need religion for advancement and order. However, I think that phase has long since past and because it is in constant conflict with science it is holding us back greatly. Short answer, yes I would throw all of that out on the off hand chance that even if it continued, it would no longer be done in the name of a delusion, God.
I'm not just looking at the positives of religion. See, this is the annoying thing about taking the middle stance, you get into these debates with people and feel no need to clarify that you agree with them in part even while disagreeing. I'm in total agreement, people have done horrible, horrible things in the name of religion. People have done horrible, horrible things in the name of a ton of things. Religion is like any philosophical concept, or anything in general: it can be taken too far. And when it is, yes, people suffer for it. When it isn't, it serves for a person's personal betterment, and often actually leads them to try and make the world a better place for others.

Oh, and I don't know what rock you've been living under, but the Age of Reason eliminated the ability of religion to restrain science. No matter how many idiots refuse to accept physical evidence over a literal interpretation of what their book says science will always march on, and frankly, if they're not intelligent enough to accept science they probably wouldn't have been able to do jack for the progression of scientific study anyway.

Quote:
On your second point of course I cannot be 100% sure that there is no afterlife, but I'm sure enough that I do not believe in it. I have seen no evidence to sway me to the position that there is an afterlife, and the so called evidence such as near-death experiences, or seeing a "white light" while dying and then coming back have been proven to all be caused by the brain. Because of this, I am comfortable in saying that I am 99% sure there is no afterlife. To you the idea that there is nothing beyond death is terrifying, but I (and others) seek comfort in it. It gives me a drive to do something while I am still on the planet, and I also am not terrified every waking moment about whether after death I'll be traveling to an eternal paradise or eternal suffering. You can keep trying to intimidate me and belittle my opinions by telling me to "shut the hell up", but it will get you nowhere. In fact, it sort of just makes you out to be somewhat of an *******.
I tell you to shut the hell up not because I disagree with your beliefs, or for my own benefit or any such thing. I tell you to shut the hell up because it is the ultimate cruelty to argue to a person that the one belief that, for them, most likely makes the concept of death tolerable is most definitely wrong and that they're delusional for believing it. And frankly, I can not and will not tolerate cruelty on that kind of psychological level.

And, as I said, I'm not terrified by the concept of death. I see it as finding the answer to one of the few questions no mortal being can ever know, and when my time is up, I'll be going on the next great adventure with gusto, whether there's anything there or not. But for a lot of other people, that's not the case, and more importantly, it's not just

Quote:
I am merely voicing my opinion, just as you. If someone happens to read it and it gets them to start asking questions--fantastic. If they read it and think I'm full of **** that's fine too. If it wasn't already obvious--which it should have been--my words are not the end all be all. Believe whatever the hell you want, I really do not care. However I am voicing my own opinion.
Ah, see, you've touched on one of my greatest pet peeves: claiming to be "voicing your opinion" when everything you've said you've stated as though it were fact. Only when I forced you to clarify that you didn't know it to be fact did you. And before you say anything, I do hold religious people to this standard as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
You apparently do not read. At all.
You have denounced miracles as false, the idea of a benevolent, omnipotent an omniscient God as foolish, and religious teachings as a human construct designed to control people. So yes, you have been attacking individual religious beliefs, because none of those things are actually dependent upon, or even related to, the existence of powerful, organized religion.
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  #227  
Old 10-02-2011, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post



You have denounced miracles as false, the idea of a benevolent, omnipotent an omniscient God as foolish, and religious teachings as a human construct designed to control people. So yes, you have been attacking individual religious beliefs, because none of those things are actually dependent upon, or even related to, the existence of powerful, organized religion.

If you look at organized religion as a personal belief, it simply pushes my point even further. I have continually said that organized religion is the source of all pain in the world, or were you not here for that?
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  #228  
Old 10-02-2011, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
If you look at organized religion as a personal belief, it simply pushes my point even further. I have continually said that organized religion is the source of all pain in the world, or were you not here for that?
No, I seem to have missed it. Either that, or I mentally blocked it because I didn't want to believe there was honestly someone I viewed as marginally intelligent who seriously believed that utter tripe. Human nature is the source of pain, Voices. We fight and kill each other over money, land, resources, love, hate, race, gender, sexual orientation, nation of origin; hell, we (America, that is) once nearly went to war with the British because a farmer shot a god damned pig. The very notion that religion is the cause of all the world's problems is just so absolutely ludicrous that... you know what, clearly I just wasn't listening when you said it the first time, because I ignore such idiocy on principle.
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  #229  
Old 10-02-2011, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
No, I seem to have missed it. Either that, or I mentally blocked it because I didn't want to believe there was honestly someone I viewed as marginally intelligent who seriously believed that utter tripe. Human nature is the source of pain, Voices. We fight and kill each other over money, land, resources, love, hate, race, gender, sexual orientation, nation of origin; hell, we (America, that is) once nearly went to war with the British because a farmer shot a god damned pig. The very notion that religion is the cause of all the world's problems is just so absolutely ludicrous that... you know what, clearly I just wasn't listening when you said it the first time, because I ignore such idiocy on principle.
And organized religion only bolsters those powers, and breeds people to believe in that performing such atrocities will grant them a way to heaven. So I recommend you look up history and see for yourself, or you can live in utter ignorance and ignore the fact that religion causes more trouble in the world then any other form of movement. Oh, wait. Here are some articles and videos! Let them do the talking since I am clearly such an idiot.

Religion bullshit.

Religious schools.

Delusion.

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Originally Posted by Carl Sagan View Post
The major religions on the Earth contradict and conflict each other left and right. You can't all be correct. And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical. I'm not any more skeptical about your religious beliefs than I am about every new scientific idea I hear about. But in my line of work, they're called hypotheses, not inspiration and not revelation.
Sexism: Personal Story No. 1

Sexism: Example No. 2

Poison.

Origin of religion.

Genocide and Pseudoscience.

Bible preaches infanticide.

Brainwashing.

First of many genocide.

Religious Sensitivity

Religious family values.

I can go on, but you probably won't listen to them anyway. You know, because I am such an idiot.
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  #230  
Old 10-02-2011, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
And organized religion only bolsters those powers, and breeds people to believe in that performing such atrocities will grant them a way to heaven. So I recommend you look up history and see for yourself, or you can live in utter ignorance and ignore the fact that religion causes more trouble in the world then any other form of movement. Oh, wait. Here are some articles and videos! Let them do the talking since I am clearly such an idiot.

Religion bullshit.

Religious schools.

Delusion.



Sexism: Personal Story No. 1

Sexism: Example No. 2

Poison.

Origin of religion.

Genocide and Pseudoscience.

Bible preaches infanticide.

Brainwashing.

First of many genocide.

Religious Sensitivity

Religious family values.

I can go on, but you probably won't listen to them anyway. You know, because I am such an idiot.
I'm not going to listen to them, but it's because I don't have time to listen to old played out arguments about how religion is the worst thing for the world ever. Humans are bastards. It's in our nature. I'm not going to accuse one of the few things in this world that actually inspires people to help each other of causing a phenomenon that would happen anyway through alternative means. Religion has brought just as much good to the world as it has bad. Just because you want to ignore that doesn't make it any less true.
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  #231  
Old 10-02-2011, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

`
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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
I'm not going to listen to them, but it's because I don't have time to listen to old played out arguments about how religion is the worst thing for the world ever. Humans are bastards. It's in our nature. I'm not going to accuse one of the few things in this world that actually inspires people to help each other of causing a phenomenon that would happen anyway through alternative means. Religion has brought just as much good to the world as it has bad. Just because you want to ignore that doesn't make it any less true.
Name some good things that have actually helped somebody and that outweighs the horrible deeds that had to be done to do that one good deed.

Also. You act as if religion is the only thing that preaches good morals and ethics.
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  #232  
Old 10-02-2011, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
I'm not just looking at the positives of religion. See, this is the annoying thing about taking the middle stance, you get into these debates with people and feel no need to clarify that you agree with them in part even while disagreeing. I'm in total agreement, people have done horrible, horrible things in the name of religion. People have done horrible, horrible things in the name of a ton of things. Religion is like any philosophical concept, or anything in general: it can be taken too far. And when it is, yes, people suffer for it. When it isn't, it serves for a person's personal betterment, and often actually leads them to try and make the world a better place for others.
Except for when those moderates who actually use it for personal betterment are swayed into an extremist direction by a charismatic leader. Not saying that it happens to everyone, but that's definitely an issue with being a moderate follower of any organized religion.

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Oh, and I don't know what rock you've been living under, but the Age of Reason eliminated the ability of religion to restrain science. No matter how many idiots refuse to accept physical evidence over a literal interpretation of what their book says science will always march on, and frankly, if they're not intelligent enough to accept science they probably wouldn't have been able to do jack for the progression of scientific study anyway.
I agree with you, science will march on. However, their ignorance to science which stems from whatever Holy Book they follow will undoubtedly spread to whatever offspring they have--impacting their lives, effectively stripping them of knowledge which otherwise they might have attained. If this were not the case, perhaps they would grow up with a fascination for science, and perhaps they would be able to impact the progression of science. However, the same argument could be made for any abortion (which I support), so I can't use that argument wholeheartedly. Just food for thought, I suppose.

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I tell you to shut the hell up not because I disagree with your beliefs, or for my own benefit or any such thing. I tell you to shut the hell up because it is the ultimate cruelty to argue to a person that the one belief that, for them, most likely makes the concept of death tolerable is most definitely wrong and that they're delusional for believing it. And frankly, I can not and will not tolerate cruelty on that kind of psychological level.
To those people I'd say welcome to reality. The entire world is not some sort of fairy-tale land where everything you want goes your way or pans out for you in the way you'd like it to. People are going to tell you ideas and messages that conflict with your beliefs. If they really hold such a strong conviction in their belief then what I say won't matter to them anyway. My message is out there, plain and simple. If someone on the fence is pushed one way or another by it, then I consider that a success. It's not about playing cruel psychological mind games, I'm simply asking them to question everything.

Quote:
And, as I said, I'm not terrified by the concept of death. I see it as finding the answer to one of the few questions no mortal being can ever know, and when my time is up, I'll be going on the next great adventure with gusto, whether there's anything there or not. But for a lot of other people, that's not the case, and more importantly, it's not just.
In my previous post I misread your statement and accused you of being afraid of the afterlife (or lack-thereof), for that I apologize.

Quote:
Ah, see, you've touched on one of my greatest pet peeves: claiming to be "voicing your opinion" when everything you've said you've stated as though it were fact. Only when I forced you to clarify that you didn't know it to be fact did you. And before you say anything, I do hold religious people to this standard as well.
It should go without saying that in a discussion such as this, while you may interpret everything that I say as fact you should know that it's merely opinion. That's how I've been treating every post within this thread. I'm sorry if this isn't the way you'd like for it to be done, in the future I'll mark every one of my posts as "be warned: this is merely my own opinion." Just for clarification, that was a joke.
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  #233  
Old 10-02-2011, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
`

Name some good things that have actually helped somebody and that outweighs the horrible deeds that had to be done to do that one good deed.

Also. You act as if religion is the only thing that preaches good morals and ethics.
I never said it was the only thing that made people be moral, I'm saying that for a lot of people it *is* the drive to do good for the world. For a lot of other people, it's not necessary. I volunteer whenever I have the time at whatever is available (I'm partial to rescue puppy adoption events), I donate ten percent of every paycheck with the express purpose of making sick children smile, and I make a point of it to be there for people when they need it, even the ones I hate. I don't need religion for that. Other people don't necessarily need religion to do that either, but a lot of people are inspired by religion to do so.

And you, sir, are frankly acting as though religion makes everyone into sycophants who will all do horrible things in the name of religion.

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Except for when those moderates who actually use it for personal betterment are swayed into an extremist direction by a charismatic leader. Not saying that it happens to everyone, but that's definitely an issue with being a moderate follower of any organized religion.
Right, because we all know that only religion can cause people to be swayed by a charismatic leader into supporting horrible horrible deeds. *pokes World War II, then walks away to avoid breaking a certain law*

Quote:
To those people I'd say welcome to reality. The entire world is not some sort of fairy-tale land where everything you want goes your way or pans out for you in the way you'd like it to. People are going to tell you ideas and messages that conflict with your beliefs. If they really hold such a strong conviction in their belief then what I say won't matter to them anyway. My message is out there, plain and simple. If someone on the fence is pushed one way or another by it, then I consider that a success. It's not about playing cruel psychological mind games, I'm simply asking them to question everything.
I hold that it's cruel. You'd really tell little Timmy that no, his grandmother isn't still watching him from up in Heaven, she's dead and gone and he'll never see her again?

Quote:
It should go without saying that in a discussion such as this, while you may interpret everything that I say as fact you should know that it's merely opinion. That's how I've been treating every post within this thread. I'm sorry if this isn't the way you'd like for it to be done, in the future I'll mark every one of my posts as "be warned: this is merely my own opinion." Just for clarification, that was a joke.
It doesn't go without saying, frankly. I've dealt far too often with people who do treat what they say as though they're stating fact. I treat people who qualify that it's their opinion as though it's their opinion, and people who don't as seeing what they say as indisputable fact.
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  #234  
Old 10-02-2011, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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I never said it was the only thing that made people be moral, I'm saying that for a lot of people it *is* the drive to do good for the world. For a lot of other people, it's not necessary. I volunteer whenever I have the time at whatever is available (I'm partial to rescue puppy adoption events), I donate ten percent of every paycheck with the express purpose of making sick children smile, and I make a point of it to be there for people when they need it, even the ones I hate. I don't need religion for that. Other people don't necessarily need religion to do that either, but a lot of people are inspired by religion to do so.

And you, sir, are frankly acting as though religion makes everyone into sycophants who will all do horrible things in the name of religion.
So the hope that it will better yourself in the afterlife is a person's only motivation to do nice things towards people? Not to do it simply to be nice? You have to do it so you score points into heaven? Doesn't sound very sincere, does it?

That is because religion breeds people into thinking that their indisputable truth is the correct and the best out of all indisputable truths that are out there. Hell, the world is fighting against religious extremists right now. I go to an American high school, and I am forced to say "One nation, under God" or else they take me to the principal's office. Watch Richard Dawkin's documentary "God Delusion" and stop defending the reason for humanity's social and technological retardation.

A) Hitler was a Catholic.

B) Stalin created his own religion, Communism.

C) The Japanese were Shinto.

Need I say more?
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  #235  
Old 10-02-2011, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
Right, because we all know that only religion can cause people to be swayed by a charismatic leader into supporting horrible horrible deeds. *pokes World War II, then walks away to avoid breaking a certain law*
I never said that it only applied to religion. However, just because it can be applied to other instances does not detract from what I've said.

Quote:
I hold that it's cruel. You'd really tell little Timmy that no, his grandmother isn't still watching him from up in Heaven, she's dead and gone and he'll never see her again?
Depending on if I knew Little Timmy could handle such an answer, and also not in as few words. I'd also probably word it to him that some people believe she isn't.

Quote:
It doesn't go without saying, frankly. I've dealt far too often with people who do treat what they say as though they're stating fact. I treat people who qualify that it's their opinion as though it's their opinion, and people who don't as seeing what they say as indisputable fact.
And I've always assumed it's their opinion unless they define it plainly as fact. I guess we'v both always treated the scenario differently.
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  #236  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:33 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

(Doesn't bother reading any of the previous posts so he can answer the original question.)

Do I believe in God? Yes.
Do I believe in the Christian God? Not necessarily.
Everything has a beginning, and everything came from somewhere. If we go far back, far far far far far back in time. Where did the universe begin? It all couldn't just appear out of nowhere, it HAD to come from somewhere.
So that leads me to believe that there *is* in fact an intelligent and mighty being that constructed the universe.
Does he/she/it actually interfere with our lives?
Does *it* actually plan to send us to heaven or hell, or whatever?
I have no clue, that is where *faith* comes into play.
Logically, no one could even begin to comprehend a *God*.
Our minds are not capable of understanding any of that, no matter how hard we try.
How could we know how an all powerful being operates?
I'm content with the idea that it allows us to make our own decisions, which is why I will agree that organized religion *can* become bad.

While the original intent *may* have been good, humanity craves power. And when you get someone at the top, he can't help but feel the desire to use religion as a tool to control people. *Not pointing fingers, just saying.*
So when you allow a *human* to run a religious gathering, it more than likely will turn bad. Which is why you are supposed to, as they say, "Keep the Sabbath Day Holy". Not "Go To Church".

There are plenty of ways to be a good person and revere God. (Or not). And it's nice to tell other people about your religion and try to ask them to join you.

But if GOD HIMSELF allows people to make their own decisions, what right do we as mere human beings have when it comes to religion? If they choose not to believe in it, don't force it down their throats. Doesn't matter what religion you are. Likewise, if you don't believe in it, don't turn around and try to make someone not believe in it. Because though you may not believe in it, they in fact do. And *if* it turns out they were right all along, and they go to hell or whatever it would be on your shoulders. (Not saying you are wrong either, because you very well could be.)

I guess that is about all I have to say. Religion is not supposed to be some kind of fairy tale of perfection. If you truly want to earn the reward at the end you have to go through hell. (Hell being the culmination of things that is meant to turn you away from your religion, and make you lose faith.)
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  #237  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:45 AM
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(Doesn't bother reading any of the previous posts so he can answer the original question.)

Everything has a beginning, and everything came from somewhere. If we go far back, far far far far far back in time. Where did the universe begin? It all couldn't just appear out of nowhere, it HAD to come from somewhere.

Who created the creator?

So that leads me to believe that there *is* in fact an intelligent and mighty being that constructed the universe.

Why?

I have no clue, that is where *faith* comes into play.

When you believe in something that has no evidence.

Logically, no one could even begin to comprehend a *God*.

Seems a lot of people manage to do it quite well.

Our minds are not capable of understanding any of that, no matter how hard we try.
How could we know how an all powerful being operates?

Um. The same way religious seem to do it.


I guess that is about all I have to say. Religion is not supposed to be some kind of fairy tale of perfection. If you truly want to earn the reward at the end you have to go through hell. (Hell being the culmination of things that is meant to turn you away from your religion, and make you lose faith.)

But the problem is that religion is some fairy tale of perfection.

Also, that is your own belief, and there is no way to prove it.
*hums the tune to Adventure Time*
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  #238  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

You say there is no evidence, and yet in the end whether there is in fact evidence or not is all up to perception. You can say "Who created the creator?" but let's assume for a moment there *is* in fact a God. And that something did create him. If that is the case, then we can go further back in time. But no matter how far we go back, we will *have* to reach a starting point. That is pure logic and scientific fact. But once we reach that point you will once again wonder "What created it?" Well, there are two different answers. One, it just happened to appear out of nowhere. (Illogical) Or two, an intelligent being created it. But that too seems illogical right because you will just say where did it come from? It's not something that a person can fully comprehend. We can claim to understand it, or pretend to do it like most religions do. (Which is one reason I prefer to go my own way, rather than follow a major religious group.) You are right, there is no one single thing that just straight up says "Oh here is God." But there are far too many things that are just too....convenient? (Use whatever word you want.) That is "My" reason for believing there is in fact a *God* or whatever you want to call it. The Universe had to start somewhere, and if someone can believe it goes on forever (this being illogical as said before), then why is it so hard to believe that there could be something that created it, and was not created itself? Though I suppose it is possible to say that *God* is not intelligent, and is just some energy phenomenon that somehow was converted into matter. (Of course that would just be a pain to discuss.)
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Old 10-05-2011, 02:07 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Working off of what Tasogares Red Mist said, I have started to believe in God as a personification of infinity. I believe that He created the universe and accept that that's all I'm meant to understand on the matter. However, I'm not exactly religious. I'm a Methodist, but a loose follower at that. Religion to me is just a great way to bond with others.
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

The only thing I have to say is this. *clears throat*
SCREW LOGIC!
Beacuse, your theory that a magical man who controls everything is just as bad as saying that I can blow up your car with my mind. Is it logical? Naww. But then again, what is? The world seems to live on, but how? It turns on an axis. How did it get there? My point is this:
DOES ANY OF IT MAKE SENSE?
More importantly: Does it really freakin' matter? Would our lives change if we knew for a fact that Christianity is true? Probably not, we would just think past that and feud if those theories are correct. Furthermore, it's almost a proven fact that Christianity was created to control and bend the people to thier will, so they would not usurp the regime. What you believe, I really don't care. Just don't try and convert me by saying I'll burn in a pit of lava with a guy stabbing me with a pitchfork when I die. If I were to believe that the whole universe of Disgaea were real, would it be any different than your belief? Any more outrageous? I'll anwser that for you:
Hell no.
And being a Prinny would be sweet. In Celestia, of course.
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