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  #211  
Old 09-28-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

While I can't really say that I'm a Christian, I have many thanks to give for Christianity existing in the first place, for had it not been born unto this world, this truly awesome song would have never been realized:

Micheal W. Smith- Awesome God
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  #212  
Old 09-28-2011, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
I find that to be a weak argument. First off, the fact is that if God is omnipotent and omniscient, whatever end he wants to achieve can be done in whatever way he wants to achieve. The fact that he chooses to achieve this end in a way that involves letting Satan run around and lots and lots of human suffering cannot be reconciled with the idea of a God that doesn't want Satan to run around or lots and lots of human suffering.

Personally, I am of the opinion that this whole "God is omnipotent" thing is something that evolved over time, whereas the ancients had a much more limited view of the world, and thus a much more limited view of God. Their idea of what "all-powerful" consisted of is much smaller than what our idea of "all-powerful" means. Same goes for all-knowing: God's portrayed as asking questions of Adam and Eve (meaning he doesn't know why they're acting weird after eating the Fruit), surprised that they would defy his commands (or why else would he punish them for doing something he knew they would do?), and admits to have made a mistake in creating mankind (Genesis 6:7). But, other than my personal interpretation, I do not have any evidence to back this up (seeing as how dissertations of what people thought "all-powerful" entailed 5000 years ago are rather rare today).
Also, interesting to note, the Hebrews actually did believe that there were other gods other than their own. They just believed that theirs was the right one to believe in.
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  #213  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:31 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

I dunno... It's not really a subject that I'm good with, because I don't see how something than exist if it never proves it's existence. Not even with like, a slight miracle.

Not sure it's just a bit of a sketchy subject with me.
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  #214  
Old 09-30-2011, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
So you describe a thousand years of darkness, World War I, World War II, the Inquisition, Thirty Years War, Crusades, etc all for the best in the end? I think not.
Just quickly on this; while the wars themselves aren't good, what can come out of them is good. I've only studied Australian history really, but Australia, as a whole nation, came out of pretty much each war better. Yes, wars cost a lot of money, and a great many more lives, and that is terrible.

But, for example, in WWII, the Japanese had tried to invade us. This was the first time any country had specifically targeted us. We faught them back on Papua New Guinea, on the Kokoda track, and that's a pretty big thing down here. Many people died up there, but it did a good few things for the nation.

It opened Australia's eyes - that we weren't as safe as we thought we were, and were just as much of a target as anyone else. It also created our key alliance with America. Before WWII, Australia's relationship with America wasn't amazing, like it was with Britain. But during the war, Britain refused to come to our aid, when we had come to theirs in previous wars, but then America did. With America's help, we managed to win our own little piece of the war, and that's a big thing.

Following the war, Australia's relations with America got so much better. Not only that, Australia broke off its dependency on Britain as our "Mother Nation", and we started getting closer to other countries, like America, and being more of an independent nation and not just a part of Britain. And while WWII was a terrible war, in a way, it basically helped Australia to become independent, and to become its own nation, as opposed to a part of Britain. So it kinda was better off in the end.
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  #215  
Old 10-01-2011, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

And almost a billion people had to die with billions more suffering. Jews gassed. Middle Easterners brutally murdered. PoWs starved and tortured. World War II alone made more people think God died than any other war in the history of the planet.
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  #216  
Old 10-01-2011, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

People see God on a personal perspective, though. People don't realise that God might just be working for the good of world itself, as opposed to helping everyone with their individual needs and desires.
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  #217  
Old 10-01-2011, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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People see God on a personal perspective, though. People don't realise that God might just be working for the good of world itself, as opposed to helping everyone with their individual needs and desires.
If everyone has their own personal perspective of God, then it only proves my point even further.
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  #218  
Old 10-01-2011, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Okay, guys, here's the deal. The world is a pile of crap on a crap sandwich with a side helping of crap and crap for dessert. That's a fact, no one can possibly dispute that. And frankly, it's ******* depressing. I can muddle through because I'm a subscriber of the "that which does not kill you" train of thought. You probably have your own way of dealing with it. But as a very good friend of mine once explained to me, some people can't deal with it. To them the idea of a world where such awful, horrible things can happen for no good reason at all, either because of nature's seemingly ravenous desire to wipe us out or, even worse, because of humans ourselves, is too awful. For a lot of people it's a coping mechanism, to believe that there's a better reason and a bigger plan for it, that as a result of the bad things that happen, eventually good will come from it. So frankly, shut the hell up. Just because we're cynical enough to accept that kind of a world doesn't give you the right to put other people down because they aren't.
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  #219  
Old 10-01-2011, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Listen, I have no problem with people believing in God. Religions, however, are the source of a lot of pain in the world. They need to be stripped of their power and their special places in society.
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  #220  
Old 10-01-2011, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

I agree. They alway think they're right, and nobody else is. That leads to arrogance, which leads to conflict, conflict leads to war...It's all just so outrageous. I could recall a quote from Need For Speed: Tokyo Drift. "For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of an undelivered message, the war was lost." Seriously, that's deep for NFS XDDD
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  #221  
Old 10-01-2011, 12:43 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
Okay, guys, here's the deal. The world is a pile of crap on a crap sandwich with a side helping of crap and crap for dessert. That's a fact, no one can possibly dispute that. And frankly, it's ******* depressing. I can muddle through because I'm a subscriber of the "that which does not kill you" train of thought. You probably have your own way of dealing with it. But as a very good friend of mine once explained to me, some people can't deal with it. To them the idea of a world where such awful, horrible things can happen for no good reason at all, either because of nature's seemingly ravenous desire to wipe us out or, even worse, because of humans ourselves, is too awful. For a lot of people it's a coping mechanism, to believe that there's a better reason and a bigger plan for it, that as a result of the bad things that happen, eventually good will come from it. So frankly, shut the hell up. Just because we're cynical enough to accept that kind of a world doesn't give you the right to put other people down because they aren't.
I'm sorry, but perhaps if those people stopped subscribing to the delusion of God, they would try to better this world. Here's the deal folks, this is the only life you get. There's no pearly gates or fiery pit after you die--nothing. Remember how it was like before you were born? That's how it's going to be when you die. This is the only planet you'll be able to call home in your life, despite the breakthroughs we are making in technology. And Lord Fedora is right--this world is going through the shitter. So he's an idea, stop striving for personal fulfillment and entrance to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and focus your efforts on something that will actually make a global impact.
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  #222  
Old 10-01-2011, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Listen, I have no problem with people believing in God. Religions, however, are the source of a lot of pain in the world. They need to be stripped of their power and their special places in society.
Except that you haven't been arguing against organized religion, you've been arguing against personal religious beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
I'm sorry, but perhaps if those people stopped subscribing to the delusion of God, they would try to better this world. Here's the deal folks, this is the only life you get. There's no pearly gates or fiery pit after you die--nothing. Remember how it was like before you were born? That's how it's going to be when you die. This is the only planet you'll be able to call home in your life, despite the breakthroughs we are making in technology. And Lord Fedora is right--this world is going through the shitter. So he's an idea, stop striving for personal fulfillment and entrance to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and focus your efforts on something that will actually make a global impact.
The world isn't hell because people believe in God and personal fulfillment, the world is hell because that's the natural state of a world where the dominant species is as self-serving, chaotic, destructive and hateful as ours collectively is. With or without religion the world is going to be a horrible place, and let's not forget that religion hasn't only brought about bad things. Consider all the many mathematical, scientific and medical contributions the Caliphates brought about, or how Guttenberg invented his printing press to print and mass produce Bibles. Religion unites people in a community bonded by common belief, it inspires charity and good deeds, it teaches legitimately good lessons about respecting others and not turning to violence (whether these lessons are followed or not is besides the point, that's their fault, not the religion's), and you'd honestly want to throw that away, on the delusion that if it weren't for religion humans wouldn't be selfish, destructive and violent bastards?

Oh, and Max, that's not Need for Speed, that proverb is actually very, very old.

Edit: Oh, and another thing, about the whole "there are no pearly gates" thing... first of all, you don't know that. Have you ever been on the other side of death? Ever met someone who has? I didn't think so. And second of all, that's another thing that it's nothing short of cruel to try and convince people. The idea that there's nothing beyond death is terrifying. Frankly the only reason I don't fear it is because I take the Dumbledore view of it: it's the next great adventure, finding out what's on the other side. I don't care how comfortable you are with the idea that you live, you die, then nothing, but other people, not nearly so much, so again, shut the hell up and let people believe what they want to believe.
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Last edited by Lord Fedora; 10-01-2011 at 09:55 PM.
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  #223  
Old 10-01-2011, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
The world isn't hell because people believe in God and personal fulfillment, the world is hell because that's the natural state of a world where the dominant species is as self-serving, chaotic, destructive and hateful as ours collectively is. With or without religion the world is going to be a horrible place, and let's not forget that religion hasn't only brought about bad things. Consider all the many mathematical, scientific and medical contributions the Caliphates brought about, or how Guttenberg invented his printing press to print and mass produce Bibles. Religion unites people in a community bonded by common belief, it inspires charity and good deeds, it teaches legitimately good lessons about respecting others and not turning to violence (whether these lessons are followed or not is besides the point, that's their fault, not the religion's), and you'd honestly want to throw that away, on the delusion that if it weren't for religion humans wouldn't be selfish, destructive and violent bastards?

Edit: Oh, and another thing, about the whole "there are no pearly gates" thing... first of all, you don't know that. Have you ever been on the other side of death? Ever met someone who has? I didn't think so. And second of all, that's another thing that it's nothing short of cruel to try and convince people. The idea that there's nothing beyond death is terrifying. Frankly the only reason I don't fear it is because I take the Dumbledore view of it: it's the next great adventure, finding out what's on the other side. I don't care how comfortable you are with the idea that you live, you die, then nothing, but other people, not nearly so much, so again, shut the hell up and let people believe what they want to believe.
Your statement is just as flawed as mine, we are both only looking at one aspect of what religion does. Where as I focus on all the terrible things religion has done, and will continue to do, you tend to look at the positives and completely ignore the negatives. I'm pessimistic in nature, and it would appear from your post that you are rather optimistic. There is nothing that's going to change this for either of us. To answer your question, I'd have to backup a bit and clarify. I think there was a time in human history where we did need religion for advancement and order. However, I think that phase has long since past and because it is in constant conflict with science it is holding us back greatly. Short answer, yes I would throw all of that out on the off hand chance that even if it continued, it would no longer be done in the name of a delusion, God.

On your second point of course I cannot be 100% sure that there is no afterlife, but I'm sure enough that I do not believe in it. I have seen no evidence to sway me to the position that there is an afterlife, and the so called evidence such as near-death experiences, or seeing a "white light" while dying and then coming back have been proven to all be caused by the brain. Because of this, I am comfortable in saying that I am 99% sure there is no afterlife. To you the idea that there is nothing beyond death is terrifying, but I (and others) seek comfort in it. It gives me a drive to do something while I am still on the planet, and I also am not terrified every waking moment about whether after death I'll be traveling to an eternal paradise or eternal suffering. You can keep trying to intimidate me and belittle my opinions by telling me to "shut the hell up", but it will get you nowhere. In fact, it sort of just makes you out to be somewhat of an *******.

I am merely voicing my opinion, just as you. If someone happens to read it and it gets them to start asking questions--fantastic. If they read it and think I'm full of **** that's fine too. If it wasn't already obvious--which it should have been--my words are not the end all be all. Believe whatever the hell you want, I really do not care. However I am voicing my own opinion.

And also on the subject of the good in religion I'd suggest watching this and this. Just so that you get a better understanding of where I'm coming from.

Or, if you have roughly 2 hours to spare this debate is also fantastic.
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  #224  
Old 10-01-2011, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Max0596 View Post
I agree. They alway think they're right, and nobody else is. That leads to arrogance, which leads to conflict, conflict leads to war...It's all just so outrageous. I could recall a quote from Need For Speed: Tokyo Drift. "For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of an undelivered message, the war was lost." Seriously, that's deep for NFS XDDD
Oo

I'm a little disappointed you think NFS came up with that...
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  #225  
Old 10-01-2011, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Except that you haven't been arguing against organized religion, you've been arguing against personal religious beliefs.
You apparently do not read. At all.

Need for Speed being deep? Hay now. It is a good movie series and all, but it does not preach wisdom of the caliber in the least.
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