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  #181  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Considering the two are frequently supported on atheistic sites, it is counted as part of the atheistic demographic, and that it is called "honest atheism", I would believe otherwise.
These are social conventions. Actually, these are not even social conventions, but internet-social conventions. It is also a social convention to say "I could care less" in order to mean "I don't care", when the actual statement means the exact opposite. Social conventions are irrelevant towards the classification of a philosophy as they are towards the definition of "could". If we accept your reasoning, then we also have to add "lulz" to the dictionary. I have already provided evidence that agnostics can be theists; if you wish to make a convincing argument you will have to refute that evidence.
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  #182  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
These are social conventions. Actually, these are not even social conventions, but internet-social conventions. It is also a social convention to say "I could care less" in order to mean "I don't care", when the actual statement means the exact opposite. Social conventions are irrelevant towards the classification of a philosophy as they are towards the definition of "could". If we accept your reasoning, then we also have to add "lulz" to the dictionary. I have already provided evidence that agnostics can be theists; if you wish to make a convincing argument you will have to refute that evidence.
I love how you think I am arguing simply because I said "I'd believe otherwise."
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  #183  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Atheism is not a lack of belief, atheism is a belief in the lack of gods.

@Exon: Do you have any evidence that atheists believe what they do because they don't get what they wanted from God? Because frankly, that is every bit as rude and insulting as what you're complaining about, and it certainly demonstrates some of that superiority-complex that Pe2k Voices is complaining about.
I don't need any evidence for this, I hear it fairly often (and I'm sure others do too). I've met many a people who are so dogmatic in their thinking to say such an empty statement such as:

"If God exists, he'll strike me down now".

Or something like that. Statements like this show an individual's lack of actual study on the topic and it just looks silly. Fact is, some people demand an instant, concrete slab of evidence on this matter and they just aren't going to get it. And like I said, the reverse situation is just as possible. There are Christians who act as though atheists are almost an entirely different species, and it's no less demeaning and silly than when atheists do it.

Also, you have a peculiar ability of taking the meaning of something that I write and tweaking it to prove a slightly different point. I said that, in my experience, a lot of atheists act like this. It doesn't mean that most, or all of them do, and it also doesn't mean that some Christians don't act the same way. I thought that I had made this clear. Now I'm not saying that my experience is representative of everyone, but it is fair enough to include in a discussion about the belief of God because it acts as a representation of why some people may or may not believe in God- whether they are online or in person. If someone near you said, "If there is a God, he'll drop a pie out of the sky," and a pie fell out of the sky, would you not believe in God? It's upon that same logic that I've noticed some atheists argue that God doesn't exist because he didn't prove it when prompted to. Regardless, it's just something that I noticed over time and find particularly annoying in the constantly recurring discussions on the existence of God. Reexamine the message of my post to understand that atheists aren't the only ones that do this; the reverse situation is likely as well, and both are equally as foolish and rude.

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And that works the other way around as well. I fail to understand how some can become so aggressive at the notion that someone believes in something different than them.
I also encourage that you be wary of your tendency to insinuate something that I'm not arguing, because it becomes rather tedious to show the separation between what you want me to argue (be it for the sake of your own intellectual stimulation or otherwise), and the message that I'm actually trying to project.
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  #184  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Exon Auxus View Post
One of the biggest reasons a lot of people don't believe in God is because they don't give the thought a chance. You hear a lot of, "If there is a God..." or "If God exists then he will..." nonsense. When whatever someone asks for doesn't happen, an automatic reaction is that there's no such thing as God because he didn't make some girl date them or whatever. And it's usually something superficial. It can get pretty annoying to those of us who believe in God, because it shows that some people regard God as their servant who's just there when they want something that they can't get on their own.

Most "non-believers" were once believers, so they did give the thought a lot of chance.

What's more annoying is when atheists stigmatize people as stupid, naive, or crazy for believing in God. To each their own beliefs, but when someone starts heavily criticizing another's personality simply because they believe in something beyond the physical, it usually makes the criticizer look like an ass. And that works the other way around as well. I fail to understand how some can become so aggressive at the notion that someone believes in something different than them. It just comes off and childish and weak.

Honey. It is just me, or does that "a lot" in the previous paragraph not effect what you said down here, since atheists are different than people who don't believe in God?
Also, as the Bible has clearly put forth, God does have the power to strike us down. Yet, for some reason he doesn't want to do it simply to reveal himself, so he does it in mysterious ways so we can all argue about it and burn in hell. You know. Like give people cancer, heart disease, war, suffering, heartbreak, torture. That sort of thing because he wuvs us so vewy much..
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  #185  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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I love how you think I am arguing simply because I said "I'd believe otherwise."
I love how you think I am arguing simply by stating a fact.
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  #186  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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I love how you think I am arguing simply by stating a fact.
I apologize. Now, back on track.
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  #187  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Exon Auxus View Post


I don't need any evidence for this, I hear it fairly often (and I'm sure others do too). I've met many a people who are so dogmatic in their thinking to say such an empty statement such as:

"If God exists, he'll strike me down now".
I will get into the more subtle issues later if I have the time, but a statement like this can be used simply because it is an easy and simple, if wrong, explanation. In all likelihood, a given person doesn't want to launch into a lengthy explanation of why they believe what they believe, which is what is required to explain any kind of religious belief properly. So, they resort to the simply, dogmatic answer in order to move on.
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  #188  
Old 09-27-2011, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices
Honey. It is just me, or does that "a lot" in the previous paragraph not effect what you said down here, since atheists are different than people who don't believe in God?
This is nonsense. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, dieties, or supreme beings. Crack open that webster, "honey". I'm not going to waste time discussing definitions with someone who uses ad hominem because of a lack of coherent information.



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I will get into the more subtle issues later if I have the time, but a statement like this can be used simply because it is an easy and simple, if wrong, explanation. In all likelihood, a given person doesn't want to launch into a lengthy explanation of why they believe what they believe, which is what is required to explain any kind of religious belief properly. So, they resort to the simply, dogmatic answer in order to move on.
Are people coming to you and telling you that this is why they use statements like this or are you just making this up? And this is done to avoid a lengthy explanation? By who? Where?

Also whether or not it is a "quick" statement does not change the fact that it is still narrow-minded, which is the point that I'm making.
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  #189  
Old 09-27-2011, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by PE2K Voices
Doesn't mean it is true, so do not take a side. Remain neutral on it until it is proven.
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Originally Posted by PE2K Voices
One problem with that. Miracles do not exist.
You were saying?

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The problem with the concept is that it easily puts power into the hands of men. More easily than any other idea.
Power belongs in the hands of men. That bad men were given that power isn't the fault of the religion. It's the fault of the people for not opposing the leadership, which they could have and still remained true to their beliefs because the actions of the religious leadership were contrary to the teachings of the religion.

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And that is what it is. Withholding judgement because you plainly admit that you do not know. I will plainly admit that the answer on whether or not God exists will always be unknown. However, I do know that human-made concepts are simply ways to control the populace and to conform people to thew way one thinks.
But see there you go, you're making the assumption, based on no evidence, that religions are human-made concepts. They could have come from divine inspiration. We might be prone to skepticism, but we can't say to an absolute that they were made by humans because we don't know.
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  #190  
Old 09-27-2011, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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You were saying?

I believe science does not have room for miracles, but you can believe otherwise if you want to.


Power belongs in the hands of men. That bad men were given that power isn't the fault of the religion. It's the fault of the people for not opposing the leadership, which they could have and still remained true to their beliefs because the actions of the religious leadership were contrary to the teachings of the religion.

History clearly proves that God, if he exists, rarely steps in to help us out. He doesn't give a rat's ass about religion, or he is very cruel. Either way, religion is false.

But see there you go, you're making the assumption, based on no evidence, that religions are human-made concepts. They could have come from divine inspiration. We might be prone to skepticism, but we can't say to an absolute that they were made by humans because we don't know.

Unlike you, I have been apart of several religions, so I don't think you have room to speak in the matter.
@Exon Auxus: Explain Buddhists, Pagans, Humanists, and Hindus. They do not believe in your God.
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  #191  
Old 09-27-2011, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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I believe science does not have room for miracles, but you can believe otherwise if you want to.
Which takes the assumption of "science or God," when it could just as easily be "God, therefore science."

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History clearly proves that God, if he exists, rarely steps in to help us out. He doesn't give a rat's ass about religion, or he is very cruel. Either way, religion is false.
Nothing proves anything about God. Frankly, Voices, an omniscient, all knowing being who understands all the past, all the present and all that is possible in the future, is going to know more than you about what's best for the progression of the human race, and for individual humans in general.

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Unlike you, I have been apart of several religions, so I don't think you have room to speak in the matter.
I'm sorry, I reject your assertion there. I, as someone who's view of religion comes solely from scholarly pursuit and the input of those around me, have what I would consider, frankly, a more objective and unbiased point of view of religion. You, having been inside the workings of several religions and finding a negative experience each time, have a far more subjective view. An objective viewpoint is not to be ignored, and more importantly, it is both rude and a weak argument to claim that because I have no personal experience, my opinions are invalid.
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  #192  
Old 09-27-2011, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

But I think it is also true that in accordance with the Revelation, the Judgment Day will come to end all the wickedness of this world.
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  #193  
Old 09-27-2011, 08:56 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Also, as the Bible has clearly put forth, God does have the power to strike us down. Yet, for some reason he doesn't want to do it simply to reveal himself, so he does it in mysterious ways so we can all argue about it and burn in hell. You know. Like give people cancer, heart disease, war, suffering, heartbreak, torture. That sort of thing because he wuvs us so vewy much..
He doesn't want to because he does loves us. It's like how a normal mother wouldn't wanna hurt their own children, most of the times our parents inflict pain on us to make us learn but we often forget they regret it later on. Same concept. God is already remorse for the flood mentioned in the Bible(with Noah) so he doesn't want to strike us down.

Also we're all forgetting someone too. Satan/Lucifer/the Devil etc. He can also give cancer, war, strife, suffering and what sin have we not. Satan is a fallen angel, and he used to be God's favourite archangel therefore he can possess the same abilities and powers God has but probably much lesser so that he can't do enough damage that would destroy the whole world. So who says that God is responsible for every single bad thing that happens in the world? We've no proof whatsoever in the first place.

Quote:
History clearly proves that God, if he exists, rarely steps in to help us out. He doesn't give a rat's ass about religion, or he is very cruel. Either way, religion is false.
Same reason as to how teachers don't help us in doing our exams and parents don't help us in doing our homework. God wants us to learn(even if it's the hard way, since it proves to be much better), not for him to mollycoddle us like babies. And if we do need him urgently and desperately, that's where people have to learn how to pray to contact him, to communicate with him.

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No, the Bible is literally the word of God.
I've to disagree. The Bible wasn't written by God himself, it was the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ. Not everything in the Bible is the word of God. The word of God is found at the parts in the Bible where God actually speaks, or is written there that he speaks. For instance, psalms found in the Bible are actually prayers so they're the word of Man. Some hymns are sung by Christians, some are sung by angels. The devil also talks to God(if you read the chapter of Job), so we've the word of the Devil in the Bible. So technically and literally, the Bible is not the word of God. The word of God can be found in it. We've to use our minds to filter which is the word of God and which is irrelevant to the word of God. That's why most people, including Christians, don't understand this and take the Bible literally and that is not the way it's supposed to be.
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  #194  
Old 09-27-2011, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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He doesn't want to because he does loves us. It's like how a normal mother wouldn't wanna hurt their own children, most of the times our parents inflict pain on us to make us learn but we often forget they regret it later on. Same concept. God is already remorse for the flood mentioned in the Bible(with Noah) so he doesn't want to strike us down.

Not the same concept. Parents punish us by taking away a privilege that has little meaning to the actual well-being of a person. God sends people to eternal damnation.

Also we're all forgetting someone too. Satan/Lucifer/the Devil etc. He can also give cancer, war, strife, suffering and what sin have we not. Satan is a fallen angel, and he used to be God's favourite archangel therefore he can possess the same abilities and powers God has but probably much lesser so that he can't do enough damage that would destroy the whole world. So who says that God is responsible for every single bad thing that happens in the world? We've no proof whatsoever in the first place.

If you think about it, God wouldn't have:
A) Let it happen.
B) Have favorites.
C) Made Lucifer in the first place.


I also love the argument that it is "all part of God's plan." That only supports my point that if he exists, he is obviously very cruel or does not care.

Same reason as to how teachers don't help us in doing our exams and parents don't help us in doing our homework. God wants us to learn(even if it's the hard way, since it proves to be much better), not for him to mollycoddle us like babies. And if we do need him urgently and desperately, that's where people have to learn how to pray to contact him, to communicate with him.

Parents should help doing homework, and teachers should help during exams. They are there so you can learn, not so you can fail or win. God doesn't nurture us if he does exist, he simply throws us into horrible situations, and no matter what we do, we fail. God himself said that most people won't go to heaven anyway.


I've to disagree. The Bible wasn't written by God himself, it was the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ. Not everything in the Bible is the word of God. The word of God is found at the parts in the Bible where God actually speaks, or is written there that he speaks. For instance, psalms found in the Bible are actually prayers so they're the word of Man. Some hymns are sung by Christians, some are sung by angels. The devil also talks to God(if you read the chapter of Job), so we've the word of the Devil in the Bible. So technically and literally, the Bible is not the word of God. The word of God can be found in it. We've to use our minds to filter which is the word of God and which is irrelevant to the word of God. That's why most people, including Christians, don't understand this and take the Bible literally and that is not the way it's supposed to be.

That is what you believe, but it was quite literally written as the word of God.
I love how the devil is considered to be the one doing all the wrongdoings, but people fail to realize that God is the one who is omnipotent and all-powerful.
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Old 09-27-2011, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Quote:
If you think about it, God wouldn't have:
A) Let it happen.
B) Have favorites.
C) Made Lucifer in the first place.

I also love the argument that it is "all part of God's plan." That only supports my point that if he exists, he is obviously very cruel or does not care.
A) He did not know what was going to happen. Also, we didn't know what is going on in the heavens way before the universe was created. (Lucifer was banished before Earth was created, fyi) Also, he was more focused onto his creation and plan, if someone's gonna counter with him not knowing the future. Besides you can't assume that God sees the future, he has plans for each and every individual(that's what we Christians learn). Planning for the future isn't seeing the future.

B) Why can't God have favourites? What's wrong with that? It's like asking why can't your parents love other children like how they love you? He may favour an angel more but that doesn't mean spoil him. That's why there's the heavenly hierarchy and all. Lucifer is described to be the most beautiful and talented archangel. We can also have a similar scenario whereby the top student in class is the teacher's pet and has good looks and popularity(I don't mean to say that the student is evil but I hope you get what I mean).

C) Like I said in A, he did not that it was going to happen. Also, it's not like he intended to create an evil being. Lucifer turned evil, not made evil. Also, we don't know what God's plan is so we can't assume anything. Though it has been reveal a little amount through Christian authors who write books based on Judgement Day where God will reveal his plan to mankind, but of course we don't know whether they're for real(I read with a pinch of salt) and few people would read such books, therefore not much knowledge of God's plan. We also can't judge current situations and say that God is cruel. Who knows, his plan may be suffering for us in life, but perhaps peace and luxury later on?

Quote:
Parents should help doing homework, and teachers should help during exams. They are there so you can learn, not so you can fail or win. God doesn't nurture us if he does exist, he simply throws us into horrible situations, and no matter what we do, we fail. God himself said that most people won't go to heaven anyway.
By help, do you mean parents doing it for us and teachers giving us the answers? And define horrible situations. If you mean sickness or sin, isn't it our doings? By living unhealthy and not taking care of our body, by engaging in immoral things, isn't that our fault? How is God to be blamed? If you mean like how Job was treated in the Bible, then it could be a test of endurance and your spirit and faith towards God. Honestly I've not gotten into any bad situations whereby I've the need to put it on God because they're all caused by me or I could've prevented it. Maybe someone else might have, but perhaps a bit of reflection and thinking back, you might find a way to have prevented it. Yes God said that, because he knows most people won't believe(for whatever reasons) in him. You can't go to heaven if you don't believe in God. I mean, it would quite rude to enter a house and pretend that the owner doesn't exist(especially since God's everywhere, ignoring him is like blasphemy).

Quote:
That is what you believe, but it was quite literally written as the word of God.
Again the word literally. It may have been written literally, but was not meant to. Besides, isn't everything written literally(in words)?

Also my friend and I thinks that we might have a somewhat okay explanation for Christians having difficulty knowing what to believe from the Bible. Let's see, the Bible was created many years ago(I don't know when) and now is 2011. Back then when the apostles wrote the Bible, there were no electricity, no plastic thing and it was totally different like now. The difference between now and eons ago is that there's more sin on the loose. Drugs, smoking, alcohols, addiction, sex, murder etc. There was also no science back then, perhaps the simplest type of science(biology with firsthand experience). That's why the Bible was so easy to believe then. Then we come to now, the Internet says this, society says this, who knows who says what etc. What was intended to be understood for people with little education was now confused and debated over. My friend and I thinks that if only Jesus Christ or God or any of the authors of the Bible were to time-travel to now, perhaps they could explain it to us in a better light. But for now we'll just have to wait for God to reveal all the answers to our questions, and that's most likely the End of the World.

*yawns* So tired, I should be writing my school essay, meh. XD
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