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  #166  
Old 09-26-2011, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Diamond1304 View Post
You mean the one in Ireland? It was somewhat related to politics, so I suspect that was another factor in it, I think (correct me if I'm wrong, my history sucks).
No. All of Europe constantly warred over Protestant and Catholicism for centuries. There is still quite a lot of misunderstanding between the two sects.
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The idea of a llama as a God....is unfitting. XD I prefer Victini(or Teddiursa ;P).
Hay, you. ;)

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While there's no evidence that they exist, just like any other supernatural thing, they are what we believe them to be. The definition of miracles is "an act or event that does not follow the laws of nature and is believed to be caused by God". Cancer patients whom doctors say won't survive yet unexpectedly recover. Is that not a miracle? A mother with a disease yet conceives a healthy child. It may be a miracle, it may not be. It depends on how one sees it. Of course to the person, they believe it is a miracle because there's no other sound explanation.
It is not a miracle. People fail to realize that the person got cancer in the first place, which is my first remark.

Second of all, there are numerous outside influences that can effect the progress of cancer. It has even been proven that human interaction can better one's chances of surviving a sickness such as that.


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I've a few miracles in my life, just small ones that only affect me for like a day or two. But one miracle significant in my family is when my father was just born. His lungs, heart, stomach and whatever organs all the way to his abdomen were upside-down(that is, his lungs were at his abdomen and kidneys, stomach where his lungs should be). Just a newborn baby yet he survived the surgery. The doctors said that it was rare for a newborn like him in his case to survive and be able to carry on living. It may not be considered as a miracle, but it granted my father to be able to live like a normal human and then in turn, my existence.
This is where statistics come in. Mathematical analysis and scientific procedure with a bit of logic. Let's see, how many children have the surgery? How many children die during the surgery on average? Let's say that 49 out of 50 babies die during such a procedure. Logically, forty-nine children must have died before him, and so he was the one child out of the fifty that made it. It has nothing to do with random chance, it has everything to do with natural influences and causes.

Now, I am not here to argue with you. Maybe you did experience a miracle, but in the world of science, I can safely say that there are none.


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Also I just found out from my parents that they were converts. They used to have no religion but through friends and social interactions, they became to believe in God and attend church(so that where they first met and then fell in love and had me and my siblings :D). So in response to an old response(lol XD):
If my parents didn't convert to Christianity, if they didn't give a care for religion, if they didn't go to church, they wouldn't have gotten together as a couple and I wouldn't be where I am today(I most probably won't exist anyway). [So technically speaking, my life is revolved mostly around, my religion. =3]
They would not have become converts had they not had friends or family in said religion. The longing to be apart of some group (the psychological term is "Group Identity") that you can identify with is something humans strive for. We are pack animals. No man is an island.

Of course, you could argue that being an atheist is being apart of a group. I could also counter that with the outlook that atheists are, without a doubt, frowned upon in modern society and if religion had its way, we'd still be executed.


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The Bible isn't the word of God, as I understand it (that's the Quran). It's inspired by God.
Research pays off.

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And yet you still apply the blanket term "Christianity."

And? Are Christians different from any other religion on Earth? There are three different sects of Buddhism. There are several of sects (some extinct, some existent) of Islam. There were five different sects of Judaism.

Referring to them as Christians is correct also, since the term Christian literally means follower of Christ, something that both Catholics and Protestants are.
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  #167  
Old 09-26-2011, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
No. All of Europe constantly warred over Protestant and Catholicism for centuries. There is still quite a lot of misunderstanding between the two sects.


Hay, you. ;)



It is not a miracle. People fail to realize that the person got cancer in the first place, which is my first remark.

Second of all, there are numerous outside influences that can effect the progress of cancer. It has even been proven that human interaction can better one's chances of surviving a sickness such as that.



This is where statistics come in. Mathematical analysis and scientific procedure with a bit of logic. Let's see, how many children have the surgery? How many children die during the surgery on average? Let's say that 49 out of 50 babies die during such a procedure. Logically, forty-nine children must have died before him, and so he was the one child out of the fifty that made it. It has nothing to do with random chance, it has everything to do with natural influences and causes.

Now, I am not here to argue with you. Maybe you did experience a miracle, but in the world of science, I can safely say that there are none.




They would not have become converts had they not had friends or family in said religion. The longing to be apart of some group (the psychological term is "Group Identity") that you can identify with is something humans strive for. We are pack animals. No man is an island.

Of course, you could argue that being an atheist is being apart of a group. I could also counter that with the outlook that atheists are, without a doubt, frowned upon in modern society and if religion had its way, we'd still be executed.
I thought you were agnostic?
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  #168  
Old 09-26-2011, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

I believe in the possibility of there being a deity (or deities) since there is no evidence on either side.
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  #169  
Old 09-26-2011, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

So why are you saying "we" when referring to atheists? It seems to me you're agnostic. Just a small nitpick.
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  #170  
Old 09-26-2011, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Agnosticism is considered a form of atheism.
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  #171  
Old 09-26-2011, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Agnosticism is considered a form of atheism.
No, agnosticism is quite different from atheism. While the two are not mutually exclusive (you can have agnostic atheism), you can also have agnostic theism, which, as the name might suggest, is theist rather than atheist in its beliefs. So, if you are an agnostic, that does not automatically make you an atheist, although it is possible to be both, thus rendering you correct in your statement of "we", assuming that your variation of agnosticism presupposes the nonexistence of a deity, while postulating that it is unknowable.
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  #172  
Old 09-26-2011, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

One of the biggest reasons a lot of people don't believe in God is because they don't give the thought a chance. You hear a lot of, "If there is a God..." or "If God exists then he will..." nonsense. When whatever someone asks for doesn't happen, an automatic reaction is that there's no such thing as God because he didn't make some girl date them or whatever. And it's usually something superficial. It can get pretty annoying to those of us who believe in God, because it shows that some people regard God as their servant who's just there when they want something that they can't get on their own.

What's more annoying is when atheists stigmatize people as stupid, naive, or crazy for believing in God. To each their own beliefs, but when someone starts heavily criticizing another's personality simply because they believe in something beyond the physical, it usually makes the criticizer look like an ass. And that works the other way around as well. I fail to understand how some can become so aggressive at the notion that someone believes in something different than them. It just comes off and childish and weak.
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  #173  
Old 09-26-2011, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
It is not a miracle. People fail to realize that the person got cancer in the first place, which is my first remark.

Second of all, there are numerous outside influences that can effect the progress of cancer. It has even been proven that human interaction can better one's chances of surviving a sickness such as that.
Miracle, as Diamond said, just means something amazingly good and very unlikely that happens that people attribute to God. If people consider it a miracle, it's a miracle to them.

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This is where statistics come in. Mathematical analysis and scientific procedure with a bit of logic. Let's see, how many children have the surgery? How many children die during the surgery on average? Let's say that 49 out of 50 babies die during such a procedure. Logically, forty-nine children must have died before him, and so he was the one child out of the fifty that made it. It has nothing to do with random chance, it has everything to do with natural influences and causes.

Now, I am not here to argue with you. Maybe you did experience a miracle, but in the world of science, I can safely say that there are none.
I think the miracle, for Diamond and family, is that his father *was* the 1 in 50 to survive.

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They would not have become converts had they not had friends or family in said religion. The longing to be apart of some group (the psychological term is "Group Identity") that you can identify with is something humans strive for. We are pack animals. No man is an island.

Of course, you could argue that being an atheist is being apart of a group. I could also counter that with the outlook that atheists are, without a doubt, frowned upon in modern society and if religion had its way, we'd still be executed.
Actually if the religion itself had it's way, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, never would have happened. Jesus was pretty clear on the whole "don't hurt or kill people, love your neighbor" thing. In fact as I recall he demanded a stoning be *stopped* because no one is without sin. If that isn't a hardline stance against the death penalty for sinners I don't know what is. It's not the fault of the religion, it's the fault of people in power of the religion, which is something different entirely.

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And? Are Christians different from any other religion on Earth? There are three different sects of Buddhism. There are several of sects (some extinct, some existent) of Islam. There were five different sects of Judaism.

Referring to them as Christians is correct also, since the term Christian literally means follower of Christ, something that both Catholics and Protestants are.
I don't mean referring to them as Christians. I mean referring to Christians as a whole and acting like they all fit into the same mold. When fanatics who happen to be of the Muslim faith blow people up I don't refer to them as Muslims, I refer to them as murderers, because they aren't representative of Islam.

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Agnosticism is considered a form of atheism.
Furthering what Lus was saying, agnosticisim can't even technically be put into a category of religious beliefs, since it is, ultimately, a lack of definitive belief. We don't believe absolutely one way or another, as there is no proof, although we may believe or disbelieve regardless. You have agnostic atheism (that's you), agnostic theism (I know there was at least one Pope), and guys like me who are agnostic and don't even care one way or the other. Agnosticism just means "I accept that my belief about the existence of (a) god(ess)(e)(s) may be wrong."
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  #174  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Miracle, as Diamond said, just means something amazingly good and very unlikely that happens that people attribute to God. If people consider it a miracle, it's a miracle to them.

I have no problem with that, but belief doesn't make it true.



Actually if the religion itself had it's way, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, never would have happened. Jesus was pretty clear on the whole "don't hurt or kill people, love your neighbor" thing. In fact as I recall he demanded a stoning be *stopped* because no one is without sin. If that isn't a hardline stance against the death penalty for sinners I don't know what is. It's not the fault of the religion, it's the fault of people in power of the religion, which is something different entirely.

You confuse Jesus Christ with Christianity. While Christianity claims to follow Jesus Christ, they actually follow countless human leaders and St. Paul, meaning religion is at fault. I'd have no problem if people worshiped a deity on their own, but as I said, group identity prevents that.

I don't mean referring to them as Christians. I mean referring to Christians as a whole and acting like they all fit into the same mold. When fanatics who happen to be of the Muslim faith blow people up I don't refer to them as Muslims, I refer to them as murderers, because they aren't representative of Islam.

Christians, as a rule, are the same when it comes to their beliefs. Now the varying degrees of actual belief in the concept remain questionable. Most tend to be firmly entrenched in the idea that God performs miracles, God is all-loving and benevolent, and that at the end of the world, only good-hearted Christians will go up to heaven and anyone who dare oppose them will be burned and tortured eternally.



Furthering what Lus was saying, agnosticisim can't even technically be put into a category of religious beliefs, since it is, ultimately, a lack of definitive belief. We don't believe absolutely one way or another, as there is no proof, although we may believe or disbelieve regardless. You have agnostic atheism (that's you), agnostic theism (I know there was at least one Pope), and guys like me who are agnostic and don't even care one way or the other. Agnosticism just means "I accept that my belief about the existence of (a) god(ess)(e)(s) may be wrong."

Just as atheism is the lack of belief?

Oh, and agnosticism literally means "lack of knowledge". It is the belief that it is impossible to prove either side.

@Exon Auxus: It is just as annoying when you have a good portion of theists claiming that atheists are immoral evil-doers who should be put down in a registry similar to sex offenders. Or when they say we are going to hell. Or when they say that we are "inhuman". All insults I have taken since I go to an American high school.
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  #175  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Atheism is not a lack of belief, atheism is a belief in the lack of gods.

@Exon: Do you have any evidence that atheists believe what they do because they don't get what they wanted from God? Because frankly, that is every bit as rude and insulting as what you're complaining about, and it certainly demonstrates some of that superiority-complex that Pe2k Voices is complaining about.
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  #176  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Atheism is not a lack of belief, atheism is a belief in the lack of gods.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a God. So it is the lack of belief, is it not?
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  #177  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Atheism is the lack of belief in a God. So it is the lack of belief, is it not?
It's not a lack of belief, as I already said. Atheism is the belief in the lack of gods. Atheists believe that there are no gods. Agnostics don't believe that there are or aren't gods. The two are distinctly different.
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  #178  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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It's not a lack of belief, as I already said. Atheism is the belief in the lack of gods. Atheists believe that there are no gods. Agnostics don't believe that there are or aren't gods. The two are distinctly different.
Considering the two are frequently supported on atheistic sites, it is counted as part of the atheistic demographic, and that it is called "honest atheism", I would believe otherwise.
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  #179  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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I have no problem with that, but belief doesn't make it true.
And lack of evidence doesn't make it false.

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You confuse Jesus Christ with Christianity. While Christianity claims to follow Jesus Christ, they actually follow countless human leaders and St. Paul, meaning religion is at fault.
No, it's not at fault. It's the fault of the people who abuse their positions as religious leaders and incorrectly teach the doctrines of their religion. Do not blame an intangible concept for the actions of power-hungry zealots.

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Christians, as a rule, are the same when it comes to their beliefs. Now the varying degrees of actual belief in the concept remain questionable. Most tend to be firmly entrenched in the idea that God performs miracles, God is all-loving and benevolent, and that at the end of the world, only good-hearted Christians will go up to heaven and anyone who dare oppose them will be burned and tortured eternally.
First of all, the belief is not confrontational, that those who "dare to oppose them" will be burned. It's that all men are inherently sinners, and the only way to cleanse that sin is through Jesus. If you don't accept Jesus into your heart, you won't be allowed into Heaven, because God doesn't tolerate sin in his presence. They don't want us to go to hell, hence proselytization.

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Just as atheism is the lack of belief?
No, atheism is a definitive belief that there is no God.

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Oh, and agnosticism literally means "lack of knowledge". It is the belief that it is impossible to prove either side.
Fun fact, I've never once in my life given a crap about what the etymology of a word means. I practice, agnosticism is taking a neutral stance and not expressing any definitive belief one way or another.
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  #180  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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And lack of evidence doesn't make it false.

Doesn't mean it is true, so do not take a side. Remain neutral on it until it is proven.

No, it's not at fault. It's the fault of the people who abuse their positions as religious leaders and incorrectly teach the doctrines of their religion. Do not blame an intangible concept for the actions of power-hungry zealots.

The problem with the concept is that it easily puts power into the hands of men. More easily than any other idea.

First of all, the belief is not confrontational, that those who "dare to oppose them" will be burned. It's that all men are inherently sinners, and the only way to cleanse that sin is through Jesus. If you don't accept Jesus into your heart, you won't be allowed into Heaven, because God doesn't tolerate sin in his presence. They don't want us to go to hell, hence proselytization.

I take the belief that "If you do not believe what I believe, you are going to go to hell," as the same as, "If you do not believe what I believe, you are going to hell."




Fun fact, I've never once in my life given a crap about what the etymology of a word means. I practice, agnosticism is taking a neutral stance and not expressing any definitive belief one way or another.

And that is what it is. Withholding judgement because you plainly admit that you do not know. I will plainly admit that the answer on whether or not God exists will always be unknown. However, I do know that human-made concepts are simply ways to control the populace and to conform people to thew way one thinks.
I would laugh if it turns out that historically, the Bible was just one big science fiction novel written by some guy eating a roast beef sandwich and some fries at his local pub one night at about 2000 B.C. xDD
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