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  #31  
Old 05-02-2011, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

I'm actually sad the dudes dead. I know, he sorta caused September 11th to become some holiday for a ton of people that died, but still, he died. Firstly, I'm scared to death of blood (not always my own; mainly a ton of blood), and I'm scared of dead peeps. Plus, now this one country is going to come and attack us. If these people even TOUCH my state, I will freak out. I mean, to get people going, if I were in that one country, I would kidnap a little kid or some sexy person that everyone loves.

If they go after a kid, well...I might be gone for about...a month. Unless their looking for a 5-year-old, 'cuz I could literally pass of as a 12-year-old, and I almost am.

Meh, we can party for now, but in about a year, some other person is going to take his place. And it better not be any people I know on here, or I will...poke them to death. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

I have no idea wtf I just said.
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  #32  
Old 05-03-2011, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

The death of Osama is a major blow to Al-Qaeda. For one the overall morale has to have dropped low enough for them to start thinking their is a rat among them since the reports of one of the detainee's giving info leading to the compound getting surrounded.

Osama isn't the only person we hunted for and was killed or captured. The number is like 5000, Most of the inner circle is in that number. so all this talk about a trade off for soldiers is ridiculous.They signed up willing and able to go hunt for the people responsible for the attacks not just the one man, Yes he was a primary target but he wasn't the only person we wanted to get.

I mean yeah it's kinda sad the dude died that way but he was a coward and he deserved everything he got. I wish they woulda got him alive though cause IMO if he got off easy.

FYI it only took ten years cause there was alot of info being leaked.Everything that happened on the 1st happened cause noone told the Pakistan government what was really happening.
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  #33  
Old 05-03-2011, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
Are you guys for real? Man, it's almost scary how quickly and how irrationally people forget what these guys did, and that's probably the rest why history repeats itself. Osama bin Laden was a soulless bastard who started this whole nightmare in the first place, really no better than Hitler or Stalin were. He had no one to blame but himself. Thing is, if we didn't stop him, who would? What was going to stand in his way to stop him from continuing this from city to city, country to country? Nothing, someone had to stop him. Otherwise, yeah, he would have kept on going, thinking he was a hero for taking a stab at a country that had to work hard for its success.
A soulless man to which America itself created, no less. Osama was funded by your own CIA right up until his "betrayal".

I think you're confused as to where I'm getting at, so I'll be very blunt: Osama's death isn't something to celebrate about. It's something for ones to solemnly reflect upon, for thousands of people died for such a cause. Thousands of innocents died for the sake of this war in itself. Thus it is not justice that is served, it was simply vengeance. Whether or not he should have been stopped one way or another (which I do agree that he should be stopped) doesn't factor into this matter. That is, don't dwell in nonexistent glory. It is not befitting and certainly insulting to the lives that were lost to this war.

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Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
Also, Dark Shadow Lord is WRONG, this is NOT one extremist we're talking about, this is an entire terrorist group that is being targeted to be taken down (didn't I say this already?). Also, unfortunately, a war was necessary, and yes, unfortunately, sacrifices had to be made because there weren't any alternatives (and if you had a good alternative in mind, speak up!). Sorry, but telling terrorists "hey guys, that wasn't nice, behave next time!" isn't going to do anything. It sounds stupid because it is. Negotiations don't work with extremists like this either, so what is to be done? Nothing at all? There are times when words don't work anymore, and action becomes necessary. If action is not taken, then expect a cycle of abuse and duress. I think it sounds rather stupid to let a country so far behind in technological and economical advancement bully us around like we're just some punching bag to rage against.
I think I clarified my statements more in the previous paragraph. Action is taken, but the cycle of duress continues nonetheless. America changed since 2001, and it will never become anything like the pre-2001 era, I give you that.

It's interesting to note that a country that is technologically behind and is bullying the US around much more than Afghanistan. The only difference between North Korea and Afghanistan really is just the ability vs the inability to conduct nuclear warfare.

It seems more like you're not thinking rationally, to be honest, due to the fact that there are tons of other people who do disagree with you. It's a pretty common psychological phenomenon, and most certainly I have suffered through it in my lifetime and even here in this board.

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And what's so wrong with "God bless America?" I know most of you are so hopelessly and sadly swept up in your own parade of atheism, but seriously, lay off. If you don't want to love this country, fine, then don't ever come here. And while you're at it, stop trying to turn OUR country into YOUR country. This business of coming here and hating our culture makes me sick.
First, you keep blabbing about me being atheist when you clearly know I'm not because I emphasized and re-ephasized each time. What's up with that? Look up "Ad hominem" in the meantime, since clearly you're conducting such an act without realizing it.

To love a country is to love its people, not some supreme being that may or may not exist. If you cannot recognize that the country's existence is due to the accomplishments of its people, then perhaps you should introspect on why one would find "God bless America" insulting to its own people. That is, doing so undermines the integrity of everything the country's people have done to make the country, for better or worse. Religion has no place in one's love for the country and its countrymen.

Secondarily, "God bless America" summarizes the entirety of the reason for this war. Getting down to it, the extremists did what they did for religion.

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Sounds great if you never believed in justice. Letting the blind man suffer while the attacker that blinded him goes free and enjoys the sight of life isn't right either, you know. Otherwise, all the innocent are blind and all the guilty can see.
Rather than lashing out at the poor guy, rather see your own self. Why are you so entirely angry about all of this? I can see that your pride comes entirely from vengeance. That much is easy to see, but it still is true that vengeance is a vicious cycle as well. I can't see how you can fail to see that simple logic.

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Figurehead or not, Bin Ladin is a symbol to the whole world, including the terrorists, and they are as easily swayed by symbolism and propaganda as anyone else. In the long run the fact that he's dead will hurt their cause. The fact that they lost THE most visible symbol of their success is a major blow, a symbolic blow, but symbols are important nonetheless. The fall of the Berlin Wall wasn't really significant either, but it changed the way people thought about Communism. Decades from now, Osama's death could well be seen as where it all started to end.
Agreed. The symbolic blow is what it is. In the short term the violence would definitely escalate. I'm not completely sure what would happen in the long term, as what stems from this is religion. That isn't going to go away any time soon. Perhaps then we should take the time to introspect on how we have been acting this whole time.

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Yes, it's hypocritical. But criticizing America for not being perfect just doesn't hold water. There's no country on Earth that, if placed in America's situation, wouldn't have done the same. And if there was it would rapidly cease to be a country. America did what it had to, and it turned out well. That's the most that can be asked.
There's a reason why I picked specific words without stating whether or not it had to be done. I didn't say America shouldn't, but rather that the trade off was horrendous for America. While this may imply that I am saying this is the wrong way of getting at it, it simply means that perhaps there is a better way of getting through this. Neo's insistence that war was the only way is reminiscent of the exact same things the terrorists had in mind. And that terrifies me. Remember, I am no genius and I am not a person who is capable of changing the world for the better. I am but a simple doctor.

I am simply criticizing America for insulting its own fallen soldiers and those that have died in 2001. It is a solemn event for that we have brought vengeance for our people. Nothing more, nothing less. I will not celebrate how our troops died in the war, but I will remember that they had sacrificed themselves for the war.

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Also, any claim that Osama's death wasn't worth it is clearly ignoring everything else that America has done in the process. The conflict in the Middle East escalated beyond Osama Bin Ladin years ago. A century later, Iraq and Afghanistan could be democratic, modernized societies full of people whose lives are hundreds of times better than they would have been otherwise; would it be worth it then? Maybe even the Arab Spring wouldn't have happened if Iraq and Afghanistan hadn't happened. We stopped going to war for Bin Ladin ages ago, so of course if you compare our sacrifices for everything else to that one mission it will look meager. But we didn't, and we're not, and since you can't pinpoint exactly what sacrifices were made to get to him, you can't argue that Osama wasn't worth it since you don't know what we paid.
In terms of cost:benefit ratio in a strictly economic terms, I think America did pretty well. I mean, they got plenty of oil now, but at a pretty hefty cost. The military bases in Iraq are up already, so in that sense certainly America gained quite a bit from it. Still, I can't imagine the pain of losing 1 person, let alone the pain of thousands. I'm absolutely certain that the families of the deceased didn't find any of the rest of the missions "worth it" for their sons/daughters. Vengeance, however, I feel those families would find "worth it", despite the implications of such an event.

It is perhaps too idealistic to presume that Iraq and Afghanistan will become democratic when we can't even achieve a semblance of that in home turf. Perhaps centuries from now we might even have found a political system that's better than democracy. Who knows, considering the idealistic conditions we're placing this argument on. The root of the problem is a religious issue. That isn't going to go away any time soon with evangelicals running around everywhere on both sides.
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2011, 11:38 AM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Kenny, see post #28. I think you skipped it, and if there's any post I'd like you to directly address, let it be that one. I'll admit, I was being a little "overly spirited" and hasty with #22, and I'll admit I honestly should learn to compose myself a bit better and think twice a little longer before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. Though in my defense, considering what this guy did to the US and how he laughed and flaunted it and his power, it's a little unsettling to see plenty of people who feel I'm "irrational" and that the US is berserk because we went after this war criminal, and feel we should have left him alone. #28 explains why I feel the way I do, and likely how plenty of other Americans do. Yes, leaving him alone was an option, albeit not a good one. Leaving Hitler alone was also an option, but that kind of blind indifference to the problem is just as bad as being the one causing it. Would have allowing Hitler to completely exterminate the Jews be the right thing to do? Same thing with Osama bin Laden. Would have allowing him to terrorize innocent people and destroy society been the responsible thing to do? Definitely not in the slightest.

My question to you is, do you think he deserved this? If not, why do you feel that way, and what should have been done? From what I've heard, Osama did not surrender even though our troops gave him the chance (source), so there was little in the ways of alternatives to stop him from continuing what he was doing. I'm not sure why you think this is solely for vengeance.

Under your logic, we shouldn't be pursuing criminals either, as that would be "for vengeance." That kind of logic undermines law enforcement as a whole, as the whole purpose of law enforcement is to act upon regulation and punish those that refuse to follow it. A society without law enforcement would be one of complete anarchy, a society that would constantly turn upon itself rather than collectively cooperate to achieve development and thrive successfully.

And Osama was even more than just a criminal. After 9/11, he showed no sign of stopping, and like most criminals, didn't feel apologetic for what he caused, and would have gladly done it again given the opportunity. I don't understand why you feel he wasn't a problem, and why we shouldn't have taken action to find him and stop him.

Yes, when the guilty admit to their faults, regret what they have done, and would be willing to do whatever it takes to redeem themselves and repair the damage however possible, that is when people should forgive. But Osama was not that kind of person, and would have gladly continuing destroying and murdering anyone that stood in his way. And that is why the US did what it had to do, stopping a problem before it got worse, and making a guilty man and his followers pay for the crimes and murders they had committed. If you feel this was wrong, then I can't help but question your standing and your regards to the foundations of law and justice as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
There's a reason why I picked specific words without stating whether or not it had to be done. I didn't say America shouldn't, but rather that the trade off was horrendous for America. While this may imply that I am saying this is the wrong way of getting at it, it simply means that perhaps there is a better way of getting through this. Neo's insistence that war was the only way is reminiscent of the exact same things the terrorists had in mind. And that terrifies me. Remember, I am no genius and I am not a person who is capable of changing the world for the better. I am but a simple doctor.

I am simply criticizing America for insulting its own fallen soldiers and those that have died in 2001. It is a solemn event for that we have brought vengeance for our people. Nothing more, nothing less. I will not celebrate how our troops died in the war, but I will remember that they had sacrificed themselves for the war.
I'll admit, the trade off was costly, and I don't think anyone in America could have predicted it. Had we known ahead of time, a change in tactics and approach very likely would have been considered, but I still don't think that would have changed the reality that the only way to stop this guy was to take action. As for me "insisting on war," showing similarity with the terrorists, that's not true. Kenny, I'm not a warmonger who believes we should "kill all the infidels." War is ugly and I wish it wasn't necessary, but unfortunately, not everyone believes in the golden rule and words only go so far before they fall on deaf ears. In a perfect world, people would always respect each other person's uniqueness, would have compassion and not hurt one another, and would understand and learn from one another. Unfortunately, we don't live in that kind of world.

Also, I think you're getting the wrong idea why people are celebrating. It's a shame we lost a lot of good soldiers in this, and I really wish that kind of sacrifice wasn't necessary, but Osama bin Laden's death is a significant victory that was accomplished because of their actions. People aren't celebrating that the war brought death and destruction to our own troops (that would be pretty insane and deranged). It marks the beginning of what will hopefully be the end of all this, where innocent people don't have to live in fear, and soldiers don't have to die to stop these people. What you're suggesting is completely the opposite of what people are celebrating for.
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  #35  
Old 05-03-2011, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Hitler and Osama were about on the same level, albeit Hitler was able to draw closer to achieving his objective of genocide by several millions of more casualties due to Nazi Germany commanding more power and funding than what Al-Qaeda has. Given a hypothetical scenario where Al-Qaeda had as much power, they very likely would have attempted to use similar methods, rather than striking at nations as sleeper cells. Honestly, it's not hard to see that Osama, with Hitler's militaristic power, funding, and influence, would have used propaganda to twist beliefs of Sharia law on a wider scale, and very likely would have called for a genocide of all those not practicing Islam, even though it's clear the motives were deeper than religious beliefs. Osama was using the Islamic faith as a catalyst to achieve his own objectives and draw those who followed the religion to be mislead and misguided by his teaching. And yes, this is exactly how it happened with Nazi Germany.
Hitler's methods were quite interesting in a sense that he's one of the most powerful propaganda machines to ever exist in human history. What he can do is to create monsters out of regular Joes like you and me via various methods of propaganda. It's surprisingly similar to the way Glenn Beck and the church of evangelicals work on home soil. While we cannot ascertain that Osama would use similar methods, it would at least be plausible for him to do so under the circumstance that he actually is both charismatic and is not actually oppressive to his own people, neither of which we can vie for as characteristics of that man. Possible, but unaccountable.

Hitler also has vengeance as one of the major reasons as to why Germany was so eager to go into war. Gosh that is a common theme.

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Call it bad luck or misfortune, but the damage that Osama did at the World Trade Center was not expected. No one thought that both towers were going to fall, but the structural damage done was the result of a chain reaction, and the success of the attack paired with the massive collateral damage gave Al-Qaeda additional morale. It also put many Americans in a state of fear, concern, and anger, which spread to other countries as well.
This isn't going to change in the near future and certainly isn't going to change ten years from now. The fact that this incident happened changed America likely until its eventual fall (as all nations will, eventually, but probably not within our lifetimes). The thing is, if not Al Qaeda, some other nut job group would take the role of the "terrorist". I do, however, agree with your sentiments here, though.

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Unfortunately, Osama was a person that could not be reasoned with. He had damaged a symbol of American culture, freedom, and democracy, which in turn damaged the economy as well, along with the security and comfort of innocent people. After accomplishing this level of success, it only encouraged him to continue, find more ways to cause damage, and put strong, powerful nations in fear and at his mercy. And he accomplished this to quite a degree, and even managed to cause tensions between Americans and Islamic followers and Arabic people. However, after we took a step back and separated fact from myth, it was clear, blaming Muslims and followers of the Islamic faith for what Osama did was wrong. It was no different than what Hitler did, obscuring truths and beliefs to instill different perceptions, which in turn he could use to accomplish his own objectives, regardless of how destructive and deadly they were.
A sad part of the number of hidden casualties on home soil that we've yet to calculate. I wonder how many Brown people in general were caught in the crossfire that way? Unlike say the Japanese in WWII, the blame here was on a religious sect. The problem here is that most US whites can't tell one from another and just group them all together.

This reminds me of the ongoing conflict between Pakistan and India and how deep seated such a difference between two religions can get. It's interesting that such is the case between Christians and the rest of the religions (and atheism for that matter) within the country. We are, ironically, only bound together by money and forced tolerance rather than empathy and voluntary tolerance. It's not going to go away anytime soon.

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Because of this, war was necessary, Osama was not a person that could be allowed to continue accumulating power, influence, and command. If we allowed for him keep gathering more power and influence, the attacks would have gotten worse, the damage would have been more severe, and in time, it may have escalated into a situation beyond our control. Casualties in World War II were massive, costly, and incalculable, and while the casualties in the war on terror are still costly, they are far, far less than what we saw in WWII, something that this could have turned into if someone had not done anything about it.
It's interesting to note that Osama can really never amount to anything more than what he did with the resources he had, under the pressure from Russia and China. while I don't think it would escalate to the scale you say it will, it certainly can escalate above the point of 911. The question remains on how much though.

I do agree that unless we have a better method, then war is one option we can go under. According to your next post, you seem to mistaken my intentions. I should address that here. My intentions is stating that there are several factors involved in this whole ordeal.

1. At the moment, there were only two plausible options: do nothing or war.
2. Of these two options, war seems a better choice than doing nothing under the consideration that America has a huge standing army and also the fact that doing nothing doesn't solve anything.
3. This doesn't mean there isn't a third option that may be more optimal. I've repeatedly stated that I'm not a genius and can't solve world peace for a reason. To stop at point 2 is erroneous because it undermines the works of courageous men like Nelson Mandela, who found a third option to achieve peace in their country. I am not pleading for this man to remain free, but I am stating that we should continuously strive for this third option. Now that Osama is dead, some other guy will show up, and we should use the time to reflect on this matter.

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And this is why Americans are celebrating his death, because it marks the end of a terrorist leader's tyranny and the possibility of them claiming even more innocent lives. If Hitler had been stopped in a similar fashion, it would have also marked a significant cornerstone in history, and it is very likely there would have been celebration also. If the Nazi regime was stopped earlier, chances are very good many millions of lives would have been spared. Unfortunately, there is no way to go back in time, what was done was done, but we can still learn from it, and understand how and why these events came to pass, and that knowledge can help us prevent something just as costly and catastrophic from happening in the future.
Optimism bias
The act of killing Osama, don't get me wrong, does deal a blow to Al Quaeda. I just don't think it's as great of a blow as we think it is. To say that it marks the beginning of the end of terrorism is overly optimistic at best, and foolishly wrong at worst. I'd like to address your other post with regards to Osama not surrendering here: why would he surrender and have a life worse than death? This is exactly the reason why Hitler committed suicide when things all went downhill.

Most Americans stop at the emotional outbreak you had and don't stop to reflect on it. They certainly don't think as deeply as even you did. I spoke with a friend of mine. American. He celebrated, but really had no idea why when it came down to it. The guy, of course, is a colleague of mine as well, obviously of above average intelligence (well I'd like to pretend that doctors are on average slightly above average in intelligence anyways).

WWII is also in itself also a fault of the corporate structure, but I will not dwell on that. That is, attempts at stopping Hitler early on was blocked by the corporations themselves. This is surprisingly similar in story to Osama, except replacing corporation with the American government. By technicality, all we had to do was not fund and train Osama in the first place and 911 might not even happen.

Thing is, America hasn't learned anything, unless you're willing to state that immediate retaliatory attacks is what we learned. The only thing this has accomplished is vengeance. We haven't learned anything about alternative methods to solve the puzzle. That's the key for us, and I agree that it's a difficult nut to crack. What I do know is that whatever that is happening on home soil isn't what we should be doing, but it's the best we have so far.

On a personal note, I can't get behind celebrating the death of a man in such a manner, whoever it can be. Perhaps it's within the wiring of a doctor. We would rescue rapists just as easily as any other man or woman on the street. As such, it is not within my nature to celebrate like that. I see other doctors do it, and it disgusts me how we can apply such a double standard when the AMA code of ethics dictate us not to do so.

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The war on weapons of mass destruction is also still necessary, and is arguably more serious considering that if a large amount of these weapons were used in rapid succession, you would be looking at damage and destruction on apocalyptic levels, and the targets of those weapons would very likely be rendered into a state that would be far too destroyed to retaliate, giving the attacker additional leverage over whoever might oppose them.
The rest of your post is a repeat and rewording of what was previously posted (in the same post, interestingly enough). I would like to make a simple statement that perhaps would shed light on this matter: what is the difference between Iraq and North Korea and the difference between our behaviours against them? The answer, of course, is that Iraq never had weapons and we attacked anyway, and North Korea do and we can't do much. It's pretty much the reason why we've left North Korea alone for so long.

I think I've taken the time to address some of the more pertinent aspects of the most recent post as well. Hope this sheds some light into what I'm thinking.
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2011, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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I'm actually sad the dudes dead. I know, he sorta caused September 11th to become some holiday for a ton of people that died, but still, he died. Firstly, I'm scared to death of blood (not always my own; mainly a ton of blood), and I'm scared of dead peeps. Plus, now this one country is going to come and attack us. If these people even TOUCH my state, I will freak out. I mean, to get people going, if I were in that one country, I would kidnap a little kid or some sexy person that everyone loves.

If they go after a kid, well...I might be gone for about...a month. Unless their looking for a 5-year-old, 'cuz I could literally pass of as a 12-year-old, and I almost am.

Meh, we can party for now, but in about a year, some other person is going to take his place. And it better not be any people I know on here, or I will...poke them to death. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

I have no idea wtf I just said.

SAD that he is DEAD? Why in the world would you be sad? He didn't JUST KINDA cause 9/11. Watch this and feel the grief that me and plenty of other people have felt.
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2011, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

hahaha im next on this *itch..
I for one want to see a pic of Osama's bullet hole head..
I for one want to see a pic of Osama with out his "do rag"
I for one want to see a pic (faces CENSORED) of the SEAL team hi5ing one another on the Helichoptter huddled around Osama's corpse.
I for one want to see a picture of Osamas head downtight near or IN the rear end of a horse, an elephant a rhino even..
I for one will pay TOP dolla to see Osama's death on "Faces Of Death" video with the heaviest most brutal DeathMetal music to date.

I want to at this time say that it was a scary thing to see the Towers Collapse a decade ago. I dont wish that kindof dead upon an enemy. but honestly Osama got it & he got it real good..
its just a sad thing it took so long to find the terrible bast*** .
I didnt lose any one i knew in the Towers and since then I've asked a slew of people here and other forums if they lost someone in the Towers to this tragedy..
i have tried to connect with these people on a personal level and I hope all you that have lost someone feel a bit of comfort knowing the brain behind the malicious attack can no longer cause that pain to another soul.

Im not asking anyone to feel how I feel about Osama. I ask that you take a deep breathe of air and even if you feel nothing.. feel at ease ..

is it an eye for en eye..? not even close.

to everyone who lost someone loved and dear... my Deepest condolences and may you strive.

oh and for the record
I have never been a fan of this quote "god bless america" even back in the elementary school days. (must have been the natural satanist in me) Tho i do love this country.


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  #38  
Old 05-03-2011, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

I'm gonna say just one thing and that is;
You can kill a terrorist, but you can't kill terrorism
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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hahaha im next on this *itch..
I for one want to see a pic of Osama's bullet hole head..
I for one want to see a pic of Osama with out his "do rag"
I for one want to see a pic (faces CENSORED) of the SEAL team hi5ing one another on the Helichoptter huddled around Osama's corpse.
I for one want to see a picture of Osamas head downtight near or IN the rear end of a horse, an elephant a rhino even..
I for one will pay TOP dolla to see Osama's death on "Faces Of Death" video with the heaviest most brutal DeathMetal music to date.

I want to at this time say that it was a scary thing to see the Towers Collapse a decade ago. I dont wish that kindof dead upon an enemy. but honestly Osama got it & he got it real good..
its just a sad thing it took so long to find the terrible bast*** .
I didnt lose any one i knew in the Towers and since then I've asked a slew of people here and other forums if they lost someone in the Towers to this tragedy..
i have tried to connect with these people on a personal level and I hope all you that have lost someone feel a bit of comfort knowing the brain behind the malicious attack can no longer cause that pain to another soul.

Im not asking anyone to feel how I feel about Osama. I ask that you take a deep breathe of air and even if you feel nothing.. feel at ease ..

is it an eye for en eye..? not even close.

to everyone who lost someone loved and dear... my Deepest condolences and may you strive.

oh and for the record
I have never been a fan of this quote "god bless america" even back in the elementary school days. (must have been the natural satanist in me) Tho i do love this country.


It did not take that long to hunt him down. We have been hunting over 5000 top members for the past 15 years.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

my main problem with this is that. osama is dead as opposed to captured, and that as far as i know the mission was to kill him as opposed to capturing him and have him be tried for crimes against humanity.

i just dont like the fact that they killed him before he could be judged.
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Um, what did he need to be tried for exactly? I mean, we all know what he has done. Just give his buddies a chance to rescue him? It does not bother me that they shot him on the spot. The bastard did not deserve a trial anyway.

The only thing that bothers me is the U.S is only going part way. While Al-Qaeda is totally disorganized, they should strike now. Not even the Taliban will expect it.

Now, this is what I bet the SEALS were listening to when they were killing the bastards.

It is almost over...
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Old 05-03-2011, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
Um, what did he need to be tried for exactly? I mean, we all know what he has done. Just give his buddies a chance to rescue him? It does not bother me that they shot him on the spot. The bastard did not deserve a trial anyway.
all criminals deserve a trial. even if its just a formality he has the right to one and imo he should have gotten one.

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The only thing that bothers me is the U.S is only going part way. While Al-Qaeda is totally disorganized, they should strike now. Not even the Taliban will expect it.
Al-Qaeda =/= Taliban
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  #43  
Old 05-03-2011, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Ayotui View Post
all criminals deserve a trial. even if its just a formality he has the right to one and imo he should have gotten one.



Al-Qaeda =/= Taliban
Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are linked in more ways than you think. They are both terrorists groups with the same hatred towards Westerners. Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, etc. They are all there.

He was an enemy of the Western world, earning him no trial. We are at war time, get over the fact that war is not fair. No, he did not deserve a trial. I would also like point out that it was a 45 minute firefight that resulted in Bin Laden's death.

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Old 05-04-2011, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotui View Post
my main problem with this is that. osama is dead as opposed to captured, and that as far as i know the mission was to kill him as opposed to capturing him and have him be tried for crimes against humanity.

i just dont like the fact that they killed him before he could be judged.
Capturing him would have opened up an enormous jar of worms. Besides making retribution from Al-Qaeda more determined due to having it more public, there's also the fact that he was hiding in Pakistan, whose government undoubtedly has officials that are sympathetic towards him and could have tied up extraction attempts with diplomatic nonsense. Not to mention attempts to rescue him while he was being removed from the country, etc. In a more practical, immediate sense, extracting a prisoner from the middle of what was quite literally a fortress could have been highly problematic, and Bin Ladin may have committed suicide in the process, either by himself or getting one of his friends to shoot him, or maybe even having put bombs on himself in expectations of martyrdom. Killing him was straight and clean, and may have saved American lives. It's not like there was doubt of his guilt, the only purpose a trial could have would be humiliation.

Oh, not to mention he probably didn't refrain from shooting any would-be capturees, again making capture difficult...

Quote:
Agreed. The symbolic blow is what it is. In the short term the violence would definitely escalate. I'm not completely sure what would happen in the long term, as what stems from this is religion. That isn't going to go away any time soon. Perhaps then we should take the time to introspect on how we have been acting this whole time.
Religion's not so much the problem as what the radicals view as injustices dealt to them by the West (aka, the Middle East would be paradise if the meddling Christians hadn't interfered!). While their religion certainly acts as a catalyst for such actions, it can't be said for sure that if Islam didn't exist, there wouldn't something like Al-Qaeda. Then again it's pretty much impossible to accurately imagine a Middle East without Islam, so it's hard to say either way. At least we can agree that this isn't going to go away anytime soon.



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There's a reason why I picked specific words without stating whether or not it had to be done. I didn't say America shouldn't, but rather that the trade off was horrendous for America. While this may imply that I am saying this is the wrong way of getting at it, it simply means that perhaps there is a better way of getting through this. Neo's insistence that war was the only way is reminiscent of the exact same things the terrorists had in mind. And that terrifies me. Remember, I am no genius and I am not a person who is capable of changing the world for the better. I am but a simple doctor.

I am simply criticizing America for insulting its own fallen soldiers and those that have died in 2001. It is a solemn event for that we have brought vengeance for our people. Nothing more, nothing less. I will not celebrate how our troops died in the war, but I will remember that they had sacrificed themselves for the war.
It comes down to how we view war, imo. I take the sentiment that once people start shooting you, it doesn't matter if they are doing so rightfully or wrongfully; you have to shoot back if you care at all about living. There was no reasonable pacifist response to 9/11 that I can see, as it would merely be perceived as weakness and inviting further attacks. Right or wrong, I can't think of a viable alternative to war as a response to being attacked. There was surely a better way of waging that war, but the act of going to war was unavoidable.

Quote:
In terms of cost:benefit ratio in a strictly economic terms, I think America did pretty well. I mean, they got plenty of oil now, but at a pretty hefty cost. The military bases in Iraq are up already, so in that sense certainly America gained quite a bit from it. Still, I can't imagine the pain of losing 1 person, let alone the pain of thousands. I'm absolutely certain that the families of the deceased didn't find any of the rest of the missions "worth it" for their sons/daughters. Vengeance, however, I feel those families would find "worth it", despite the implications of such an event.

It is perhaps too idealistic to presume that Iraq and Afghanistan will become democratic when we can't even achieve a semblance of that in home turf. Perhaps centuries from now we might even have found a political system that's better than democracy. Who knows, considering the idealistic conditions we're placing this argument on. The root of the problem is a religious issue. That isn't going to go away any time soon with evangelicals running around everywhere on both sides.
I don't think any war since WWII could be viewed as beneficial to the US in terms of strict economic cost to benefit ratios. In a Industrial/post-Industrial era, the economic sacrifices made to go to war nearly always outweigh the economic benefits. Whatever we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan isn't going to make up for the hundreds of billions poured in. Bush was an idealist who envisioned himself bringing freedom, love, and apple pie to the Middle East, and that is ultimately why we ended up invading Iraq; not oil, or WMDs. As for the emotional cost/benefit, I can't imagine that we can measure that, so I won't try and guess at whether it was worth it from that standpoint. In terms of international politics and the way America is perceived though, I do believe going to war was the only way.

And yes, it's idealistic. I was assuming best-case scenario to make the point.
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  #45  
Old 05-04-2011, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

It pisses me off that someone born with that much privilege, inheriting 1/50 of a billionaire's estate and attending top schools for all of his educational life, would want to spend their life's work instilling fear into so many just because of a distaste of globalization. I'm not exuberant as most others are about his death (on an anime-character pacifism scale, where Vash the Stampede is the highest score possible, I'm somewhere right below a Kenshin Himoura), as he was nothing more than a symbol at this point, and I fear retaliation of some sort.

Seriously, all of these terrorists need to chill down, play some Okami, and watch some Cowboy Bebop. They should put positive, self-fulfilling goals ahead of selfish goals that kill and injure others around them.
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