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  #76  
Old 03-26-2011, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Lus, if you can't keep a civil tone and insist on continuing with the condescension, I suggest you leave.
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  #77  
Old 03-26-2011, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
I have been all around the world with my family to military bases thank you, and I have had many friends to have been deployed. I suggest you keep a level tone, since I doubt you have even been ON a base before. (I have lived on one for over 7 years)
Oh, I'm sorry, I hadn't realized that living on a military base means that Pentagon officials give you secret information Oo
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  #78  
Old 03-26-2011, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Oh, I'm sorry, I hadn't realized that living on a military base means that Pentagon officials give you secret information Oo
I am sorry that you cannot really find anything to riff on anymore. I am sorry that I am trying my level best not to piss anyone off. I am sorry that you are "forced" to even put forth effort to deal with my "stupidity" and "ignorance."

...

Nah! That was all a lie. Just bsing with you. I don't have to feel sorry for someone who is overly critical, feels they know everything, and wants to shout it from the rooftops. Dude, just run for presidency already!
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  #79  
Old 03-27-2011, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
You do realize that .80 cal sniper rounds are becoming common, right?
You realize there is structural armor to defend against the eighty cal right? A striker can take a hit from multiple RPG shots and the RPG is armor piercing and has a much more devastating effect unless we are talking explosive .80 cal rounds. We have structural armor now a days that can take on minigun fire. The minigun shoots .50 caliber bullets in rapid succession. I'm safe in an armored bunker against a technologically inferior enemy no matter the numbers I have nothing to worry about if they can't even hit me on the ground.

In a 1 versus 10 fight on equal terms then yes that 1 will lose. If that one has better tactical training he will know not to fight the 10 head on but use things around him to his advantage to take them on. Better weaponry he can take them all out in one shot and not just nukes can do this. If ten people armed with pistols go against a guy with a revved minigun who will win?

A sniper is a tactical soldier. He can take out multiple targets because he has a better tactical position and better weaponry for the engagement. Sniper beat troop. Even in the most primal senses archers killed multiple soldiers before one even got within yelling distance.

Your alleged life of traveling the world has no weight in this discussion. For all we know you are just making this up to prove yourself correct. Anonymity on the internet calls for you to use direct sources not hearsay. My hypothetical situations aren't hearsay they use common known facts and logical outcomes. You claim to know people and live on military bases unless you can find some believable proof your alleged personal experience is not valid here.

Before I get accused of raging on you, I'm not.

On a side note Russia won because of the same thing that let them beat Napoleon. Their winter. They had enough people and resources to throw away until winter hit and killed off the rest of their enemies. They won by a tactical advantage not by a numbers advantage.
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  #80  
Old 03-27-2011, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Blood Red Lucario View Post
On a side note Russia won because of the same thing that let them beat Napoleon. Their winter. They had enough people and resources to throw away until winter hit and killed off the rest of their enemies. They won by a tactical advantage not by a numbers advantage.
Just gonna say this real quick, and then I'll leave.

On the subject of the Russian defeat of Nazi forces in World War Two, their manpower had a large part in helping them win, as did their brutal winters, but so did their massive amount of territory. With a country that size, the Soviets could afford to make numerous retreats, eventually spreading Hitler's forces too thin (Their supplies had to be brought in by pack mules for crying out loud!). After the winter set in, it was a piece of cake to smash through a weakened force without proper supplies or communications.
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  #81  
Old 03-27-2011, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Phantasm.Angel View Post
Just gonna say this real quick, and then I'll leave.

On the subject of the Russian defeat of Nazi forces in World War Two, their manpower had a large part in helping them win, as did their brutal winters, but so did their massive amount of territory. With a country that size, the Soviets could afford to make numerous retreats, eventually spreading Hitler's forces too thin (Their supplies had to be brought in by pack mules for crying out loud!). After the winter set in, it was a piece of cake to smash through a weakened force without proper supplies or communications.

I agree I might have put too much an emphasis on the winter being the only thing that allowed them to win. When I think of the Russian victory I think of Stalingrad which didn't have the forces spread out thin however possibly supplies but there were quite a few forces packed and present in that city.
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  #82  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Blood Red Lucario View Post
You realize there is structural armor to defend against the eighty cal right? A striker can take a hit from multiple RPG shots and the RPG is armor piercing and has a much more devastating effect unless we are talking explosive .80 cal rounds. We have structural armor now a days that can take on minigun fire. The minigun shoots .50 caliber bullets in rapid succession. I'm safe in an armored bunker against a technologically inferior enemy no matter the numbers I have nothing to worry about if they can't even hit me on the ground.

In a 1 versus 10 fight on equal terms then yes that 1 will lose. If that one has better tactical training he will know not to fight the 10 head on but use things around him to his advantage to take them on. Better weaponry he can take them all out in one shot and not just nukes can do this. If ten people armed with pistols go against a guy with a revved minigun who will win?

A sniper is a tactical soldier. He can take out multiple targets because he has a better tactical position and better weaponry for the engagement. Sniper beat troop. Even in the most primal senses archers killed multiple soldiers before one even got within yelling distance.

Your alleged life of traveling the world has no weight in this discussion. For all we know you are just making this up to prove yourself correct. Anonymity on the internet calls for you to use direct sources not hearsay. My hypothetical situations aren't hearsay they use common known facts and logical outcomes. You claim to know people and live on military bases unless you can find some believable proof your alleged personal experience is not valid here.

Before I get accused of raging on you, I'm not.

On a side note Russia won because of the same thing that let them beat Napoleon. Their winter. They had enough people and resources to throw away until winter hit and killed off the rest of their enemies. They won by a tactical advantage not by a numbers advantage.
My experience with the military has nothing to do with the discussion about tactics, however I was tactically defending another front of the "argument."

And .80 cal would be slightly more powerful because it is an acute puncture where as the standard RPG 07 is a cheap explosive device. The reason the united states doesn't use the RPG 07 is because it does not puncture the armor, rather attempts to blow it up.

Yes, I know a sniper is a tactical soldier. However, it is still unlikely for it to win against ten other men. Yeah, he can run back, pick one off, run back, pick another off. Eventually, if the soldiers are smart, they will take cover and circle around. (use of tactics and numbers)

My alleged life? Em, for the first 16 years of my life I have been to Hickam Airforce Base, Good Fellow Airforce Base, Montay Army Base, Offut Airforce Base, Springfield, Pensecola, Egglin Airforce Base, Okinawa, and Ramstein Airforce Base.
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  #83  
Old 03-27-2011, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
My experience with the military has nothing to do with the discussion about tactics, however I was tactically defending another front of the "argument."
Actually, given that I highly doubt that being a military brat means you were given military training, it really gives you no insight other than visual observation, which, lacking context (such as "where do they keep the guns," something they're not going to tell a kid), are unreliable.

And .80 cal would be slightly more powerful because it is an acute puncture where as the standard RPG 07 is a cheap explosive device. The reason the united states doesn't use the RPG 07 is because it does not puncture the armor, rather attempts to blow it up.[/QUOTE]

Point. However, the point is not the method, but the force. A .80 calibre sniper bullet focuses force while an RPG releases it in a concussive force via explosion. However, the force from a concussive explosion is going to be higher than that of a .80 caliber bullet, and at the moment of impact will still be compacted into the small space, meaning that, according to general principles of physics, if an RPG can't even leave a mark, no bullet is going to get through.

Quote:
Yes, I know a sniper is a tactical soldier. However, it is still unlikely for it to win against ten other men. Yeah, he can run back, pick one off, run back, pick another off. Eventually, if the soldiers are smart, they will take cover and circle around. (use of tactics and numbers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
If I may add to that, Simo Hayha, aka The White Death, had a total of 700 kills against the Red Army, 500 of which were sniper kills, in the course of less than a hundred days.
Let's be clear about this. 1 sniper. 500 sniper kills. Less than 100 days. That means an average of more than five kills a day. And the reason for this is that despite the fact that in addition to standard soldiers the Soviets committed countersnipers (who he also killed) and repeated carpetbombing of the area where they thought he was, they couldn't find him. That's why the sniper is a tactical soldier, not because he picks opponents off from a distance, but because he does so without giving away his position, and from distance enough that on detection he can reposition himself before the targets are in firing range.

Furthermore, you just outright admitted that the numbers are completely useless without additional strategic assets. Without either the technological capability (radar) or the sheer dumb luck to find the sniper and the strategic coordination to surround him before he can reposition, a force of any size is essentially screwed compared to a skilled, well camouflaged sniper.

Quote:
My alleged life? Em, for the first 16 years of my life I have been to Hickam Airforce Base, Good Fellow Airforce Base, Montay Army Base, Offut Airforce Base, Springfield, Pensecola, Egglin Airforce Base, Okinawa, and Ramstein Airforce Base.
Lucario's point is that you could easily be making it up in order to use yourself as appeal to authority. You have no proof.
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  #84  
Old 03-27-2011, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

I am in college level ROTC, I think I know the layout of the base judging I have been here for years (yes, I know where the armory is).

Did you know that if you punch a person with your middle and ring finger poking out above all the other fingers, it actually does more damage? How? The acute force that is imprinted by the two outlying fingers.

The same applies for a bullet. An .80 cal bullet will most likely puncture the armor because its energy is being pushed into one point, not spreading about the tank.

.80 cal rounds can go through a 5 foot thick wall of steel, I am sure they can go though a wall of a building.

Think of it this way. If a Barrett M82 (.50 cal) can go through an APLM destruction vehicle, and it has been used to shoot through structures, I am sure an .80 cal is a BIT more powerful.
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  #85  
Old 03-27-2011, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

You continue to claim you have military experience. Unless you prove it I don't believe you.

An rpg doesn't simply explode. Its device pierces armor then explodes to send shrapnel into the armored target. That is how an ANTI tank weapon works.

To prove it to you: http://videos.howstuffworks.com/disc...pg-7-video.htm

At 1:40 the certified expert says it himself. It pierces armor. Up to 11 inches.

Point proven.

So if we have structures that can go up against the armor piercing explosive round I think an armor plated reinforced fortress will be alright against a bullet.

One .80 call shot has a lot less energy than 500 .50 cal shots in a second. There is armor piercing tank fire as well and there is armor made to defend against it.

Armor piercing tank round: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v31KD41I4Q

At 28 seconds. I believe that is much more powerful than a simple .80 cal. So if we have structural armor against that what makes you think a bullet will get through?

Barrets have been used on reinforced concrete at best when it comes to shooting through structures not armor plated defensive positions.

Since you can make claims about your life I will be have to claim things in my life. The two finger strike does more damage to vital areas namely the eye. I know this because I'm a martial artist and have been one for over 10 years. You won't break a rib with a two finger strike but you will break a rib with a fist. So tell me what does more damage? They equally do because they are completely situational strikes and have different targets.
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  #86  
Old 03-27-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

I'm just glad the US is not involved for once!

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  #87  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
And there is also a small chance that the planet Earth will spontaneously cease it exist due to quantum fluctuations.

But it won't.

Neither will an untrained army defeat a trained army. Neither will China beat the US. At least try and come up with a meaningful argument, just going "herp derp totally theoretical situation that has no basis in reality whatsoever" is not evidence.
Oh a untrained army won't defeat a trained army? Russia WWII. Most of its army was untrained, and they defeated the German's trained army.

A man is still a man. Trained to kill or untrained, a bullet will still end their life. Thus, an army with no military training compared to a well-trained army can still win.

Like we have these bomb desposal experts in the army, they're TRAINED to disarm bombs, and bombs can still kill them. I remember seeing a segment where a NORMAL soldier, no bomb training, disarmed ten bombs to allow his squadron to continue on moving through the desert.

It's all well and good investing loads of money into training your soldiers, but at the end of the day, no matter how well trained they are, they can be killed by untrained soldiers.

And basically you're saying that you know EVERYTHING China has, all their secret weapons, all their tanks, all their planes and so on. What's to say they don't have hidden ones that WE haven't seen? Theoretical, yes. Implausible, no. It's people like you that think the America is so high and mighty that no other army can beat them that are so utterly unbelievable it's amazing.

The Taliban aren't a trained army, yet effectively they are beating the UK and the US.
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  #88  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Kaioo View Post
Oh a untrained army won't defeat a trained army? Russia WWII. Most of its army was untrained, and they defeated the German's trained army.

A man is still a man. Trained to kill or untrained, a bullet will still end their life. Thus, an army with no military training compared to a well-trained army can still win.

Like we have these bomb desposal experts in the army, they're TRAINED to disarm bombs, and bombs can still kill them. I remember seeing a segment where a NORMAL soldier, no bomb training, disarmed ten bombs to allow his squadron to continue on moving through the desert.

It's all well and good investing loads of money into training your soldiers, but at the end of the day, no matter how well trained they are, they can be killed by untrained soldiers.

And basically you're saying that you know EVERYTHING China has, all their secret weapons, all their tanks, all their planes and so on. What's to say they don't have hidden ones that WE haven't seen? Theoretical, yes. Implausible, no. It's people like you that think the America is so high and mighty that no other army can beat them that are so utterly unbelievable it's amazing.

The Taliban aren't a trained army, yet effectively they are beating the UK and the US.
In both cases you cited home field advantage kicks in. The Taliban haven't been obliterated because they're using tactics that are effective against the West; hiding amongst the general populace, using meatshields, etc. If they were to theoretically attack the United States, they would lose that advantage because they would no longer easily blend in. And even then they're only winning in the sense of us being unable to find them most of the time and getting a couple potshots at our troops every once in a while. That's hardly being a more effective force.

Similarly, the Russians beat the Germans back in WWII because between their giant tracts of land and their ridiculously cold climate. The country itself did most of the work.

As for China having secret military technology, yes. China has no plans to go to war with anyone, it would be political suicide to. They do, however, have a defensive interest in maintaining control of Tibet, keeping their own people in line, and keeping Pakistan or India from trying to drag them into another Kashmir conflict. Thus, it would be far more advantageous for them, politically, to make advancements in military technology publicly known, in order to make everyone beneath them technologically believe that it would be a bad move to go to war with them. It would only be if China were planning a war that they would keep the status of their military under total wraps.

We don't believe America is so high and mighty that no one can possibly defeat us. We believe, based on both the status of our military technology as the most advanced in the world and on the experience of the past century, in which we have only ever lost a war politically, that our military would not be defeated in a head to head war with another military force.

Edit: Oh, and the difference between a trained soldier and an untrained soldier is that the trained soldier knows how not to get shot. Lacking a strategic disadvantage like the Russian winter or the deserts and caves of the Middle East, the trained army is going to defeat the untrained army, because the trained army will have the tactical sense, weapons knowledge, and physical conditioning to be able to avoid being shot.
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  #89  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
The Taliban aren't a trained army, yet effectively they are beating the UK and the US.
No and no. The Taliban is a trained group. How else do you think they could beat the Russians. The alleged "terrorist" are trained primitively but are still trained none the less.

The Taliban is not winning. Just because the war isn't instantly over doesn't mean we are losing. You seem to lack the knowledge on the objective in Afghanistan. Finding and killing Osama is not on the list. We literally are playing police right now as Lusankya said earlier and deal with violent insurgents. We literally are playing wack-a-mole with them.

In the past 9 years we lost a little over 1,000 men. That's barely a hundreth of the amount of troops there. Its a splinter in the giants foot. Compared to the losses of the enemy that is rather small.


Quote:
A man is still a man. Trained to kill or untrained, a bullet will still end their life. Thus, an army with no military training compared to a well-trained army can still win.
Following your logic we might as well not train people and give them guns put them in an army and whenever we have a war let them loose. We train our soldiers because it makes them more efficient. A trained soldier is better at killing than an untrained soldier. Can the untrained soldier kill a trained one? Yes. Is it likely in a one on one fight? NO. Put a trained knight in armor and give him a Claymore and pit him against a regular man with the same armor and Claymore and the knight will win unless he turns his back. The regular man won't even be able to lift the sword. There is a major difference between a trained soldier and a guy with a gun.

A trained bomb technician is much more likely to disarm a bomb it doesn't make them immune to them. No one said they would be. A trained army can be killed by an untrained one but if they have the same numbers and equipment then the trained one wins. Even if the untrained has more if the smaller army has better equipment and training they still have an advantage.
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  #90  
Old 03-28-2011, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: War Declared

Reality check: the Chinese army isn't untrained.
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