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  #46  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
"Curbstomped" by the rest of the world? Other than the UK (not a large army but a well-trained one) and the Muslim League, no one would have the forces to withstand against an army that size.
As individuals, no. However, every country except North Korea with an effective military would most likely band together and say "no China, we are not having World War III, get the hell out of America and go home." All debts to China would be called null, international trade with China would be boycotted, and their economy would be reduced to rubble, making it literally impossible to sustain their military and turning it's superior size into a liability rather than an asset.


Quote:
I am not arguing anymore about this. It is stupid to think that a force of 4 could take down a force of 500, or a force of 1 to take down 10. Numbers DO matter, and anyone who says that obviously does not know anything about war. While I do admire the U.S military, you fail to realize the main argument I am getting at. The fact that the U.S military is not unbeatable.
You're assuming that the fighting would be the kind where each army lines up against each other and trades fire. NOBODY fights this way anymore. Tactical positioning, stealth, flanking, these are all tactics and points which make numbers, if not meaningless, then only a minor factor.

I've already explained to you how the one experienced and well trained soldier beats ten others. He only loses if he's defeated tactically. As for four against 500, in a straight up firefight, you're right, the 500 have an advantage. But that does not imply victory. Even if all 4 go down, between them they could easily take down a hundred if they utilize superior strategy before that happens, making it a Pyrrhic victory. Numbers are a potential tactical asset, not a tactic in and of itself, and any tactical asset can be rendered useless by a superior strategy.

Quote:
I'd love to see how you would react if you saw what seemed to be a sea of soldiers coming at you. I don't know about you, I wouldn't care if we had a superior technical weapon or better trained guys. 10 soldiers against 1 is an impossible battle. Since the Akm is the most standard weapon now days (Ak47 is actually a prototype and the commonly used weapon is the AKM), that is 35 rounds in one magazine. Dodge that 350 lead volley and see if you can take it.
Depends. Is the 1 soldier standing in the middle of an open field like an idiot, or is he in an urban environment, as most battles nowadays are, with plenty of buildings around, a large amount of cover, and not surrounded because he used his strategic intelligence to determine that there were 10 soldiers waiting for him? And, to bring back your 500 to 4 example, are those 4 soldiers taken by surprise ambush, or are they the ambushers, set up in the upper stories of a building with shielded machine guns in the window pointed at the army with more than enough ammo? Because really, with an incredible defensive position like that, a single soldier can easily take out the 125 enemies that each of them would have to pull off to take out five hundred men, and even if one manages to slip past them to get into the building, only one needs to turn around and toss a live grenade down the stairs.

All of your arguments rest on the assumption that the smaller number is going to be surrounded with no possible cover, which really shows how very little you know of tactics and intelligence. Go read some Sun Tzu and play a few military shooters and then come talk to me.

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Originally Posted by Kaioo View Post
What I'm trying to say is that the US is NOT unbeatable. No matter how technologically superior you are, you can lose. Let's look at Russia. They were essentially defeated by the Taliban in the 70's. Now, I know they withdrew because of Chernobyl and because their political leader wanted to withdraw because they hadn't really gained much, but they still lost.
No one claims that the US in unbeatable. What we are asserting is that in a legitimate war with us going all out, our military would win regardless of who we are facing. Which, given our superior military training, advanced radar systems, unmatched air force, and ridiculously defensible country (seriously, we have an ocean to either side and staunch allies to the north and south, anyone trying to invade us is absolutely screwed). No one would be able to defeat the US in a military conflict outright, the only way it would actually happen would be if, like Vietnam, we said "screw it, it's not worth it" and left.
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  #47  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post

All of your arguments rest on the assumption that the smaller number is going to be surrounded with no possible cover, which really shows how very little you know of tactics and intelligence. Go read some Sun Tzu and play a few military shooters and then come talk to me.
What realism is there in a military shooter? "Ow, I can take a few hits, ow ow ow AWWZ HEADSHOZZZA!"

You are also assuming that a simple wall would keep a large enemy force from breaking through. You are also assuming that the 4 soldiers would be able to protect their flanks. Of course they are going to become surrounded unless they are in a position where there is only one exit and one entrance, which is suicidal anyway.
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  #48  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
No one claims that the US in unbeatable. What we are asserting is that in a legitimate war with us going all out, our military would win regardless of who we are facing. Which, given our superior military training, advanced radar systems, unmatched air force, and ridiculously defensible country (seriously, we have an ocean to either side and staunch allies to the north and south, anyone trying to invade us is absolutely screwed). No one would be able to defeat the US in a military conflict outright, the only way it would actually happen would be if, like Vietnam, we said "screw it, it's not worth it" and left
So, basically you just said the US can not lose in an all out war? Basically saying they can't be beaten. Technological superiority doesn't mean anything to be quite honest, besides the whole having better stuff. A bullet is a bullet. NO MATTER how well trained a soldier is, a bullet can kill them. An untrained army of 100,000 could defeat a well-trained army of 100,000.
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  #49  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Kaioo View Post
So, basically you just said the US can not lose in an all out war? Basically saying they can't be beaten. Technological superiority doesn't mean anything to be quite honest, besides the whole having better stuff. A bullet is a bullet. NO MATTER how well trained a soldier is, a bullet can kill them. An untrained army of 100,000 could defeat a well-trained army of 100,000.
And there is also a small chance that the planet Earth will spontaneously cease it exist due to quantum fluctuations.

But it won't.

Neither will an untrained army defeat a trained army. Neither will China beat the US. At least try and come up with a meaningful argument, just going "herp derp totally theoretical situation that has no basis in reality whatsoever" is not evidence.
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  #50  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

herp derp war is actually very unpredictable especially if two super powers face off

Who's to say some Chinese General doesn't come up with an amazing plan that turns the tide of an important battle?
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  #51  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
What realism is there in a military shooter? "Ow, I can take a few hits, ow ow ow AWWZ HEADSHOZZZA!"
The ability to take a few hits has no bearing on the fact that the tactics are still sound. You take cover, you guard your flank, and you find the most tactically sound position to shoot your enemies from without getting hit. The same tactics apply, they just require a higher level of caution.

And for the record, bulletproof vests are generally military standard issue. So yes, a soldier could actually take a couple to the chest and be perfectly fine for it. Danger areas are the much harder to hit legs, arms, and head.

Quote:
You are also assuming that a simple wall would keep a large enemy force from breaking through. You are also assuming that the 4 soldiers would be able to protect their flanks. Of course they are going to become surrounded unless they are in a position where there is only one exit and one entrance, which is suicidal anyway.
Yes, as a matter of fact, a wall is going to keep a large enemy force from breaking through, because that large enemy force isn't intangible and therefore can't walk through it. The only way to get past it is to break cover, leaving yourself vulnerable to attack. As for the 4 soldiers protecting their flanks they do select a building with entrances on one side only, ensuring that they can't be flanked, and set one soldier to a lower floor guarding the staircase. Anyone who happens to get through will have to engage in a firefight with that soldier. If he doesn't radio in after the gunfire ends, they know he's been killed, an unlikely scenario as it would be difficult for more than maybe two or three at a time to get through without Zerg rushing, which would in and of itself cause such a ridiculous body count.

Now, that being said, I'm not saying that the 4 soldiers would easily win. It would be difficult, and a single mistake could end it. But that would be true of any battle with any number against any number. The point is that it would not be "impossible" as you put it for 4 soldiers to beat 500, or at least make the cost of the battle extremely high. Because frankly, if you lose even 50 to 100 soldiers trying to take out 4, you clearly did not come out the winner of that battle, no matter that your opponents also lost.
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  #52  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
"Curbstomped" by the rest of the world? Other than the UK (not a large army but a well-trained one) and the Muslim League, no one would have the forces to withstand against an army that size.

I am not arguing anymore about this. It is stupid to think that a force of 4 could take down a force of 500, or a force of 1 to take down 10. Numbers DO matter, and anyone who says that obviously does not know anything about war. While I do admire the U.S military, you fail to realize the main argument I am getting at. The fact that the U.S military is not unbeatable.



There was no need to put any more pressure than there already was. The Russians were in Berlin.

I'd love to see how you would react if you saw what seemed to be a sea of soldiers coming at you. I don't know about you, I wouldn't care if we had a superior technical weapon or better trained guys. 10 soldiers against 1 is an impossible battle. Since the Akm is the most standard weapon now days (Ak47 is actually a prototype and the commonly used weapon is the AKM), that is 35 rounds in one magazine. Dodge that 350 lead volley and see if you can take it.
10 against one is very possible. Lets look at one person who has better tactics and weaponry, a sniper. Versus say a group of 10 troopers. His tactic hide and pick them off one by one. Oh look at that they are dead. And that one is very much alive. Impossible I think not.

I don't care how many rounds come my way unless they have a sniper shooting Jesus bullets through a bunker that is bulletproof I have nothing to worry about enemy fire in a defensive position.
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  #53  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Temporal Snake View Post
herp derp war is actually very unpredictable especially if two super powers face off

Who's to say some Chinese General doesn't come up with an amazing plan that turns the tide of an important battle?
Yes, and who's to say that a meteor won't fall from the sky and hit Obama in the head? Or maybe American will fall into the ocean! Or maybe God will extend his hand from heaven and squash all the Chinese because Americans prayed hard enough!

Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless.
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  #54  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Blood Red Lucario View Post
10 against one is very possible. Lets look at one person who has better tactics and weaponry, a sniper. Versus say a group of 10 troopers. His tactic hide and pick them off one by one. Oh look at that they are dead. And that one is very much alive. Impossible I think not.

I don't care how many rounds come my way unless they have a sniper shooting Jesus bullets through a bunker that is bulletproof I have nothing to worry about enemy fire in a defensive position.
You do realize that .80 cal sniper rounds are becoming common, right?
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  #55  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
You do realize that .80 cal sniper rounds are becoming common, right?
The point ------>


---------------------



>Your Head<
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  #56  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
The ability to take a few hits has no bearing on the fact that the tactics are still sound. You take cover, you guard your flank, and you find the most tactically sound position to shoot your enemies from without getting hit. The same tactics apply, they just require a higher level of caution.

And for the record, bulletproof vests are generally military standard issue. So yes, a soldier could actually take a couple to the chest and be perfectly fine for it. Danger areas are the much harder to hit legs, arms, and head.



Yes, as a matter of fact, a wall is going to keep a large enemy force from breaking through, because that large enemy force isn't intangible and therefore can't walk through it. The only way to get past it is to break cover, leaving yourself vulnerable to attack. As for the 4 soldiers protecting their flanks they do select a building with entrances on one side only, ensuring that they can't be flanked, and set one soldier to a lower floor guarding the staircase. Anyone who happens to get through will have to engage in a firefight with that soldier. If he doesn't radio in after the gunfire ends, they know he's been killed, an unlikely scenario as it would be difficult for more than maybe two or three at a time to get through without Zerg rushing, which would in and of itself cause such a ridiculous body count.

Now, that being said, I'm not saying that the 4 soldiers would easily win. It would be difficult, and a single mistake could end it. But that would be true of any battle with any number against any number. The point is that it would not be "impossible" as you put it for 4 soldiers to beat 500, or at least make the cost of the battle extremely high. Because frankly, if you lose even 50 to 100 soldiers trying to take out 4, you clearly did not come out the winner of that battle, no matter that your opponents also lost.
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Keep in mind that your comparison to a video game is just as insane as someone who would directly compare the Roman army tactics to the modern United States army.

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Quote:
The point ------>


---------------------



>Your Head<
Walls become unimportant with a round that can puncture tank armor. I dunno', jus' sayin'!

The wall + .80 Cal = Kill

Though it would require one hell of a recoil arm to absorb an .80 cal sniper rifle.
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  #57  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Blood Red Lucario View Post
10 against one is very possible. Lets look at one person who has better tactics and weaponry, a sniper. Versus say a group of 10 troopers. His tactic hide and pick them off one by one. Oh look at that they are dead. And that one is very much alive. Impossible I think not.

I don't care how many rounds come my way unless they have a sniper shooting Jesus bullets through a bunker that is bulletproof I have nothing to worry about enemy fire in a defensive position.
If I may add to that, Simo Hayha, aka The White Death, had a total of 700 kills against the Red Army, 500 of which were sniper kills, in the course of less than a hundred days. Fightin Jack Churchill captured 42 German soldiers using nothing but a claymore sword and a set of bagpipes. Corporal Alvin York took out 32 German machine gunners basically on his own. You see where I'm going with this.
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  #58  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Yes, and who's to say that a meteor won't fall from the sky and hit Obama in the head? Or maybe American will fall into the ocean! Or maybe God will extend his hand from heaven and squash all the Chinese because Americans prayed hard enough!

Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless.
Everything that hasn't happened is hypothetical. The future is meaningless. You should kill yourself right now then.
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  #59  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post

Walls become unimportant with a round that can puncture tank armor. I dunno', jus' sayin'!

The wall + .80 Cal = Kill

Though it would require one hell of a recoil arm to absorb an .80 cal sniper rifle.
The point --->





























------------------

>Your Head<


Seriously, I have never seen anyone with your level of ability to completely and utterly miss the point of any train of thought. I'm not sure if you are deliberately doing so in order to draw attention away from the fact that your argument is ludicrous, or you really have that short of an attention span.

Quote:
Everything that hasn't happened is hypothetical. The future is meaningless. You should kill yourself right now then.
Uh no, because I can guarantee you that I will breathe tomorrow, and I can guarantee you that I will eat dinner tonight. I did not say hypotheticals were meaningless, I said that your hypotheticals are meaningless. Do not even try and equate a likely possibility with a totally absurd fantasy. Using "But what if this happens?!" as your main argument is the defense of 12 year olds, so if you're going to keep saying that stay out of adult conversations.
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  #60  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: War Declared

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
The point --->





























------------------

>Your Head<


Seriously, I have never seen anyone with your level of ability to completely and utterly miss the point of any train of thought. I'm not sure if you are deliberately doing so in order to draw attention away from the fact that your argument is ludicrous, or you really have that short of an attention span.
What is your IQ?

Have you followed Khajmer or have you just been glued to your own comments, laughing: Ahaha! I'm smarticles!

Oh, and just a word with you. An untrained killer can kill a trained killer, no matter how or why or with what. I do not care if it was "luck" (there is no such thing), or God's fist (there is no such thing), or the fact that some politician decides he doesn't want to be the one written down in the history books as the one who lost the war (there are plenty of those).

If these hypothetical situations are meaningless to you, why argue in the first place? Is it the fact that you have an irresistible need to display your intelligence, you have all the time in the world, or you are as guilty as the rest of us?

And is saying, "What if this happens?!" a childish question? If so, we have thousands of child-like theoretical experts.
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