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  #46  
Old 03-20-2011, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
1. My bad on the wording there, I know they are. What I meant was that, despite the fact that the Tea Party is a minority of the Republican party that's choked up with racist, homophobic, birther nutbags, none of the Republican leaders ever denounce them; in some cases, they even cater to them! If they wanted to maintain credibility, they would've disassociated themselves from the Tea Party; now, though, their reputation is suffering for it. Seriously, with this and Palin, the Republicans are becoming the bane of moderates.
Hold up there, I'd like to point out that I know plenty of Tea Partiers who are completely rational people who are merely passionately conservative. The view of the Tea Party is purely because the ones who bring up, the racist homophobic birther nutbags, are far more interesting than the very polite and reasonable folks who organized to oppose liberal policies, which, while I don't necessarily agree with politically, is a perfectly legitimate movement that will forever live with stigma created by the hyperfocusing of the 24 hour news cycle on the insane minority. Also because Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman are associated with it.
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  #47  
Old 03-20-2011, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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2. I know why they left and I think it's completely ludicrous. You don't flee your state and hold the vote hostage just because you don't like a new policy; it's utterly immature and a disgrace to the democratic process. If the PEOPLE hate what the Republican majority is doing, they'll vote in Dems next time to reverse the bill -- THAT'S how democracy works.
What the Republicans are doing is equally immature, however. The aim of the anti-Union bills is purely partisan, and anything they say otherwise is just nonsense. Unions always vote Democratic, so the whole point of the bills is to make to weaken them so that it is less likely that Democrats will be voted in once everyone notes that it was stupid. It's the same thing that's happened to NPR and ACORN, one virtually the only existing liberal radio station and the other an organization that, among other things, helped poor people to vote. True, there were scandals, but hardly worthy of the punishment delivered. That's the real reason that the Democrats are walking out, because Republicans are specifically attempting to eliminate their core voters and have been now for several years. It's one of the reasons the Republican party so disgusts me, despite me agreeing with them on several policies, because they are so blatantly partisan and anti-democratic (both the party, and the concept). True, most Republicans aren't crazy or extreme, but they not only seem to tolerate those who are, but promote them. Not to mention you just don't see the same degree of radicalization on the other side.
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2011, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
Hold up there, I'd like to point out that I know plenty of Tea Partiers who are completely rational people who are merely passionately conservative. The view of the Tea Party is purely because the ones who bring up, the racist homophobic birther nutbags, are far more interesting than the very polite and reasonable folks who organized to oppose liberal policies, which, while I don't necessarily agree with politically, is a perfectly legitimate movement that will forever live with stigma created by the hyperfocusing of the 24 hour news cycle on the insane minority. Also because Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman are associated with it.
You know, I...yeah, I'm sorry. It's fairly dumb of me to make a sweeping generalization like that. I really just get inflamed by the worst of the Tea Partiers and the inordinate news coverage they get. See, though, Tea Party leaders have actually been these sorts of people. Observe Mark Williams, leader of the Tea Party Express (which has since been denounced by the Tea Party National Federation for a completely different thing -- but it's still part of the movement), and his insightful thoughts on Islam, in which he calls Allah a "monkey god" and further propagates the idea that all Muslims = terrorists.
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What the Republicans are doing is equally immature, however. The aim of the anti-Union bills is purely partisan, and anything they say otherwise is just nonsense. Unions always vote Democratic, so the whole point of the bills is to make to weaken them so that it is less likely that Democrats will be voted in once everyone notes that it was stupid. It's the same thing that's happened to NPR and ACORN, one virtually the only existing liberal radio station and the other an organization that, among other things, helped poor people to vote. True, there were scandals, but hardly worthy of the punishment delivered. That's the real reason that the Democrats are walking out, because Republicans are specifically attempting to eliminate their core voters and have been now for several years. It's one of the reasons the Republican party so disgusts me, despite me agreeing with them on several policies, because they are so blatantly partisan and anti-democratic (both the party, and the concept). True, most Republicans aren't crazy or extreme, but they not only seem to tolerate those who are, but promote them. Not to mention you just don't see the same degree of radicalization on the other side.
Mmm...I don't see how limiting a union's collective bargaining limits the voting power of the union members or anyone else, though. If anything, the union members are all fired up and much more likely to vote for Democrats than they already were -- as is anyone in Wisconsin who disagrees (or am I simplifying things too much?). Of course, it could well be that the Democrats have turned people against them with their whole disappearing act, but hey. Anyway, I don't really care about the bill itself; I just found the Dems' response remarkably immature and utterly baffling.
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2011, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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mm...I don't see how limiting a union's collective bargaining limits the voting power of the union members or anyone else, though. If anything, the union members are all fired up and much more likely to vote for Democrats than they already were -- as is anyone in Wisconsin who disagrees (or am I simplifying things too much?). Of course, it could well be that the Democrats have turned people against them with their whole disappearing act, but hey. Anyway, I don't really care about the bill itself; I just found the Dems' response remarkably immature and utterly baffling.
Unions not only mobilize their members to vote, they often engage in campaigning on behalf of the Democratic as well. If your organization is not telling you to go out and vote and reminding you to vote every day as election day approaches, you are then less likely to vote. It's that simple. It's the same with any strong pro-Democratic organization: you remove its power, people are less likely to vote for it. Believing that "people will be fired up" without an organization prodding them is, in blatant honestly, naive. Of course, that is not to say that people cannot vote of their own volition, but all other things equal, an unorganized mass will lose to one that has structure and machinery.
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Dali: "I know what the picture should be ... We take a duck and put some dynamite in its derriere. When the duck explodes, I jump and you take the picture."
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Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."

Last edited by Lusankya; 03-21-2011 at 09:36 PM.
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2011, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Unions not only mobilize their members to vote, they often engage in campaigning on behalf of the Democratic as well. If your organization is not telling you to go out and vote and reminding you to vote every day as election day approaches, you are then less likely to vote. It's that simple. It's the same with any strong pro-Democratic organization: you remove its power, people are less likely to vote for it. Believing that "people will be fired up" without an organization prodding them is, in blatant honestly, naive. Of course, that is not to say that people cannot vote of their own volition, but all other things equal, an unorganized mass will lose to one that has structure and machinery.
Hahahaha, Unions... Hay French people, I am so sorry you have to work for a living. xD
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  #51  
Old 03-21-2011, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
Hahahaha, Unions... Hay French people, I am so sorry you have to work for a living. xD
You laugh, but without organized labor we'd still be in the days where meat packing workers regularly died in the factory and had their remains processed with the rest of the beef.
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Dali: "I know what the picture should be ... We take a duck and put some dynamite in its derriere. When the duck explodes, I jump and you take the picture."
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2011, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Unions not only mobilize their members to vote, they often engage in campaigning on behalf of the Democratic as well. If your organization is not telling you to go out and vote and reminding you to vote every day as election day approaches, you are then less likely to vote. It's that simple. It's the same with any strong pro-Democratic organization: you remove its power, people are less likely to vote for it. Believing that "people will be fired up" without an organization prodding them is, in blatant honestly, naive. Of course, that is not to say that people cannot vote of their own volition, but all other things equal, an unorganized mass will lose to one that has structure and machinery.
I fail to see how you are equating limiting the union's power in collective bargaining to the union apparently dissolving completely. In an effort to not make an ass of u and me in this debate (which, believe me, I probably will wind up doing anyway!), I've looked into the bill a bit more and it seems to only target collective bargaining for job benefits. There would still be a teachers' union, they would still be able to negotiate pay, and they could still remind their members to vote. Also, the protests rather clearly show teachers are, for lack of a better phrase, fired up and more than willing to do something about it.

Main point of fleeing the state being stupid still stands, incidentally, but it seems like we've gone a bit past that now. Oh well.
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  #53  
Old 03-22-2011, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
I fail to see how you are equating limiting the union's power in collective bargaining to the union apparently dissolving completely. In an effort to not make an ass of u and me in this debate (which, believe me, I probably will wind up doing anyway!), I've looked into the bill a bit more and it seems to only target collective bargaining for job benefits. There would still be a teachers' union, they would still be able to negotiate pay, and they could still remind their members to vote. Also, the protests rather clearly show teachers are, for lack of a better phrase, fired up and more than willing to do something about it.

Main point of fleeing the state being stupid still stands, incidentally, but it seems like we've gone a bit past that now. Oh well.
You don't have to dissolve the union. You limit the union's collective bargaining power (aka, limiting the union's right to exist), you limit it's influence on its members and other people, you limit the degree to which it can convince people to vote, you hurt the other party's chances of getting elected. They're not looking to shut down the union entirely (yet, anyways), but they're looking to hurt them in any way at all, and if you can't see how weaker unions means a weaker Democratic Party, then you may need a more thorough explanation than I possibly can give.

Furthermore, it's not possible to see the Wisconsin bill as anything but an anti-Democratic, union-busting bill, since many other budget sections were removed, not to mention that the unions never had any part in the recession anyways. Furthermore, the whole reason Wisconsin even has such a problem in the first place was because Republicans signed off on tax breaks earlier in the year. All the evidence points to Walker not giving a damn about the budget and simply trying to use the Republican surge to cement in his majority. Either that or it's just the quintessential Republican delusion that they can cut taxes and still balance the budget.

And yes, I did agree with you that fleeing the state was stupid, but you have to look at why they fled the state.
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Dali: "I know what the picture should be ... We take a duck and put some dynamite in its derriere. When the duck explodes, I jump and you take the picture."
Halsman: "Don't forget that we are in America. We will be put in prison if we start exploding ducks."
Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."

Last edited by Lusankya; 03-22-2011 at 01:45 AM.
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  #54  
Old 03-22-2011, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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You laugh, but without organized labor we'd still be in the days where meat packing workers regularly died in the factory and had their remains processed with the rest of the beef.
I do laugh because a lot of Unions don't do anything, and a few more out step their boundaries.
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  #55  
Old 03-22-2011, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Larvinator View Post
I fail to see how you are equating limiting the union's power in collective bargaining to the union apparently dissolving completely. In an effort to not make an ass of u and me in this debate (which, believe me, I probably will wind up doing anyway!), I've looked into the bill a bit more and it seems to only target collective bargaining for job benefits. There would still be a teachers' union, they would still be able to negotiate pay, and they could still remind their members to vote. Also, the protests rather clearly show teachers are, for lack of a better phrase, fired up and more than willing to do something about it.
The only reason for a union's existence is collective bargaining. Remove collective bargaining, you remove the reason for the union, and the union loses power.

It also has to do with the Republican notion that public sector unions use the additional money and benefits they gain using their collective bargaining to buy Democratic politicians. This is actually probably true of some union heads (although I don't see Republicans complaining about corporate ownership of politicians), but to attack unions based solely because some may do so is absolutely ridiculous.
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  #56  
Old 03-22-2011, 09:02 PM
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I do laugh because a lot of Unions don't do anything, and a few more out step their boundaries.
Sure they don't, because everyone loves working for minimum wage and no benefits, right?
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  #57  
Old 03-23-2011, 06:02 AM
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Sure they don't, because everyone loves working for minimum wage and no benefits, right?
Yeah, because everyone over there in France has a horrible wage and no benefits. They don't have welfare coming out their wazoo, a law keeping them from working more than 48 hours in a week, or ensured job security. Nah! That is why they are riot and whine.
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  #58  
Old 03-23-2011, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

I don't have any political views, simply because there isn't some sort of political party in which agrees with my views. What I learned was that, if you're not a Democrat, Republican, Socialist, or Communist, no one really cares what you have to say.

I suppose I lied then. I have political views, yes. But to voice them would be a waste of time, since I have no political leaders to back me up.

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Yeah, because everyone over there in France has a horrible wage and no benefits. They don't have welfare coming out their wazoo, a law keeping them from working more than 48 hours in a week, or ensured job security. Nah! That is why they are riot and whine.
On the other hand, they do have better overall healthcare than we do.
But hey, France is known for their violent opposition. They're usually the ones who get heard the most when they're upset.

(In a lighter tone, I heard getting a job at McDonalds is actually a nicely-paying job in France.)

Welfare is a touchy subject for me, because I believe it could be useful. Just not under the guidelines in which America does.
Instead of accepting pay stubs and signatures, maybe they should have someone visit the person's house and take in their appearance. Of course, just because you're poor, it doesn't mean that you can't look nice. But if you have an iPod touch & an iPhone with you, and your neck is adorned with all sorts of gold and you're wearing all brand names, you clearly don't need welfare.
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  #59  
Old 03-23-2011, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

I don't suppose anyone here who supports Communism knows that it's just one of those things that sounds really fantastic on paper but then does not work in real life?
See here.
If you pay a doctor and a plumber the same wage, the doctor will naturally think, Oh, well, I work much more than he does even though our wages are the same. Therefore, I think I shall do as little work as I possibly can because there's no chance for advancement anyway. Ho-hum.
I pretty much disagree with everything our amazing leaders here in the U S of A do nowadays. Especially Obama. Even most Republicans are hypocitical nitwits today. And if anyone wonders why Americans have become so lazy it's because we don't even have to work to earn a freaking living anymore.
Mnehhhh. I'm personally Conservative all the way, and anyone 'pro-choice' can come and be flamed, since that's pretty much my major point against liberals.
I'm so going to get flamed now...
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  #60  
Old 03-23-2011, 04:55 PM
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I thought myself Communist a few years ago, and came to the same conclusion- that it just wouldn't work, no matter how beautiful it sounds.

Apparantly, the churches also think it's impossible to not be heterosexual, and be religious, but I am so therefore that pretty much brings me down to being pro-life.
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