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  #16  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Chaos_Control View Post
Discuss your political views here.


You're probably gonna hate me for this, like those stuck-up jerks at TCOD do.

But...

Personally, I like the philosophy of Karl Marx.

My political idol is probably Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the greatest nation ever to exist. Unfortunately, I was a fetus when they disbanded.

Communists are better than capitalists for many reasons, but most oft hem are either rambly or too personal, or I could maybe get banned for saying them.
You cannot support both as they are completely different. Communism has the country control everything where as Marxist taught that everything should belong to the public.
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  #17  
Old 02-15-2011, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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You cannot support both as they are completely different. Communism has the country control everything where as Marxist taught that everything should belong to the public.
'Country control everything', thats not the idea of it. The idea of it is that everyone is equal, if it worked in theory it'd be the best government ever, it's just imposible to make it work.
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  #18  
Old 02-15-2011, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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'Country control everything', thats not the idea of it. The idea of it is that everyone is equal, if it worked in theory it'd be the best government ever, it's just imposible to make it work.
It does work in theory, it just fails in practice.

And the fundamental difference between Leninist and Marxist communism is that Marxism strives for the end goal of eliminating all forms of human inequality, reaching its logical conclusion in the elimination of government (as being part of the government puts you in a position above the common man). Before that, however, is an extremely powerful government which consolidates everything into public ownership, followed by the dissolution of government. Leninism gets halfway there, and then stops before reaching the final step. The reason it fails in practice on the Marxist front is that no human, no matter how much they agree with total equality, is going to willingly forfeit that kind of power.
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  #19  
Old 02-16-2011, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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'Country control everything', thats not the idea of it. The idea of it is that everyone is equal, if it worked in theory it'd be the best government ever, it's just imposible to make it work.
You do not think that forcing everyone to be equal does not require control? What if someone has a slightly larger income? Bam! Gone!
What if someone has a better house than someone else? Bam! Gone!
What if someone has more food than another person? Bam! Gone!

Who do you think takes all of it away?

Also, it would never work. People always think of themselves as better than other people. Human nature itself prevents the concept from ever working. But, as the pig from Animal Farm said... Some animals are more equal than others.
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
You do not think that forcing everyone to be equal does not require control? What if someone has a slightly larger income? Bam! Gone!
What if someone has a better house than someone else? Bam! Gone!
What if someone has more food than another person? Bam! Gone!

Who do you think takes all of it away?

Also, it would never work. People always think of themselves as better than other people. Human nature itself prevents the concept from ever working. But, as the pig from Animal Farm said... Some animals are more equal than others.
Which is your opinion, so don't state it as fact.
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  #21  
Old 02-16-2011, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

That is not an opinion, and that last line wasn't even mine. So, go ahead and whine, insult something or other, flame, then claim you don't care even though you wasted all that time to do so. Then find someone else to argue with, because that is what your being seems to be dedicated to at this point.
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  #22  
Old 02-16-2011, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

I'm a member of the Labour party, cause I'm awesome.
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  #23  
Old 02-16-2011, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
That is not an opinion, and that last line wasn't even mine. So, go ahead and whine, insult something or other, flame, then claim you don't care even though you wasted all that time to do so. Then find someone else to argue with, because that is what your being seems to be dedicated to at this point.
LMFAO What the hell you doing you downy?
Don't impose your jewish crap on me, all I said was everything you were stating was an opinion, which you were, people would happily disagree with you, stop being such a elitist, especially when you're not worth anything.

You keep getting trollollolololololol'd kid, keep trying.
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  #24  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
You do not think that forcing everyone to be equal does not require control? What if someone has a slightly larger income? Bam! Gone!
What if someone has a better house than someone else? Bam! Gone!
What if someone has more food than another person? Bam! Gone!

Who do you think takes all of it away?

Also, it would never work. People always think of themselves as better than other people. Human nature itself prevents the concept from ever working. But, as the pig from Animal Farm said... Some animals are more equal than others.
That isn't a fact. That's an opinion. People have the tendency to think themselves as above others but that doesn't necessarily mean they ALWAYS do. There is almost no ALWAYS when it comes to humans psychologically besides the fact that we learn. People may have the natural tendency to think themselves better than others just like people raised without a father statistically have a tendency to fail, that doesn't mean they actually do.

And just going to say this but fiction should only be quoted for interpretive/opinion based arguments. Why? Because fiction isn't real its just the portrayal of the author's views even if its based on real life.

And just to stay on topic Marx said ultimately when his government comes into fruition there would be no need for control. The people will naturally share and serve one another in the vast community people who have more will use what extra they have to serve the community under their own will making a self sustaining social equality. Lenin failed in his communism because he skipped a few steps to get to the strong government that made everything public faster. The nation never had a socialist stage. Communism is gradual not instantaneous.

Personally I believe it should stop at socialism just to make sure that the rights of an individual are realized. Sweden is a quiet nation for a reason. (Not looking at Greece because it epic failed at the idea)
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  #25  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
It does work in theory, it just fails in practice.

And the fundamental difference between Leninist and Marxist communism is that Marxism strives for the end goal of eliminating all forms of human inequality, reaching its logical conclusion in the elimination of government (as being part of the government puts you in a position above the common man). Before that, however, is an extremely powerful government which consolidates everything into public ownership, followed by the dissolution of government. Leninism gets halfway there, and then stops before reaching the final step. The reason it fails in practice on the Marxist front is that no human, no matter how much they agree with total equality, is going to willingly forfeit that kind of power.
Marxism doesn't even work in theory, unless we can consider the spouting of random nonsense while completely ignoring reality "theory". There has never been any evidence that a human society has ever existed that neither has government nor inequality. Even apes and wolves and chickens and bees and ants and termites have social orders. On the contrary, the entire history of human civilization is testament to the fact that we need government and inequality. What spewed forth from Marx's mouth was just plain nonsense, the kind of crap that comes from people unable to accept reality.
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  #26  
Old 02-17-2011, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Marxism doesn't even work in theory, unless we can consider the spouting of random nonsense while completely ignoring reality "theory". There has never been any evidence that a human society has ever existed that neither has government nor inequality. Even apes and wolves and chickens and bees and ants and termites have social orders. On the contrary, the entire history of human civilization is testament to the fact that we need government and inequality. What spewed forth from Marx's mouth was just plain nonsense, the kind of crap that comes from people unable to accept reality.
Jesus Christ, and I thought I was a pessimist.

When a person says something works in theory, they mean that it works if everything falls into place as the theory describes. Marxist theory has people acting a certain way, willing to act in, essentially, perfect harmony. We don't need government and inequality. There is absolutely nothing to support that. What history shows us, and what makes the concept of Marxism fail when put into practice, is the concept of human greed. Human greed and desire for dominance makes total equality unachievable. It has that in common with Liberalism and democracy. They are ideals which work in theory and fall very short in practice; things to strive towards.
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  #27  
Old 02-17-2011, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by Masami View Post
LMFAO What the hell you doing you downy?
Don't impose your jewish crap on me, all I said was everything you were stating was an opinion, which you were, people would happily disagree with you, stop being such a elitist, especially when you're not worth anything.

You keep getting trollollolololololol'd kid, keep trying.
I think your rather childish insults should remain to yourself, for your pubescent goading will not get me to lash out at you. On further thought however, it is not the fact that it is childish, rather it is because you are ignorant and will not listen to another opinion. You are as bad as a Catholic, you do not listen to something, and if you disagree with it you instantly spit it out and label it an evil ideal.

Anyway, in other news. Is it not human nature to think that you are the center of the world? We all at least go through a stage of it in our lives. And since not everyone is interested in the common good, and would rather work to sustain themselves, Marxism would never work.

The beef I have with Socialism is not the idea that everyone is equal to a certain extent, rather the problem I have with it is the economy. But, that is a totally different argument. The point is, there will AWAYS be someone out there thinking about himself and not about others, thus Marxism would never work.

And considering Animal Farm was written by a survivor of the Spanish Communist purges of 1938 named George Orwell, I think it is a rather accurate account of Communist mayhem.
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  #28  
Old 02-17-2011, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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I think your rather childish insults should remain to yourself, for your pubescent goading will not get me to lash out at you. On further though however, it is not the fact that it is childish, rather it is because you are ignorant and will not listen to another opinion. You are as bad as a Catholic, you do not listen to something, and if you disagree with it you instantly spit it out and label it an evil ideal.

Anyway, in other news. Is it not human nature to think that you are the center of the world? We all at least go through a stage of it in our lives. And since not everyone is interested in the common good, and would rather work to sustain themselves, Marxism would never work.

The beef I have with Socialism is not the idea that everyone is equal to a certain extent, rather the problem I have with it is the economy. But, that is a totally different argument. The point is, there will AWAYS be someone out there thinking about himself and not about others, thus Marxism would never work.

And considering Animal Farm was written by a survivor of the Spanish Communist revolutions of 1938 named George Orwell, I think it is a rather accurate account of Communist mayhem.

Trollololololol. Will you stop replying to me and discuss the topic please? thankyou.
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  #29  
Old 02-17-2011, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Jesus Christ, and I thought I was a pessimist.

When a person says something works in theory, they mean that it works if everything falls into place as the theory describes. Marxist theory has people acting a certain way, willing to act in, essentially, perfect harmony. We don't need government and inequality. There is absolutely nothing to support that. What history shows us, and what makes the concept of Marxism fail when put into practice, is the concept of human greed. Human greed and desire for dominance makes total equality unachievable. It has that in common with Liberalism and democracy. They are ideals which work in theory and fall very short in practice; things to strive towards.
To call something a "theory" implies that is has some relevance to reality. Marxism "theory" assumes that several important aspects of reality are not true, but tries to apply his theory to reality anyways. Thus, it's less a theory than mere conjecture and hypothesis.

It's not just human greed that makes what Marxism strove for, what John Locke called "the state of nature", impractical. In fact, it would be a total disaster for human civilization if everyone were rendered equal in property. First off, people aren't born equal. Some people are inherently more intelligent, some more athletic, some more creative. These inherent differences between people mean that people should not be equal. And they won't be. It is an inevitable result of the inequalities of humans that the strong will gather wealth for themselves. It's not even greed, it's rational self-interest.

Total equality is not only impossible, it is also undesirable. Without inequality, society has no structure. In fact, there is virtually no society at all. If we take equality to its ultimate conclusion, we have a perfectly equal society in which everyone has the same things; by necessity then, everyone will be doing the same thing. Every person will become a subsistence farmer who lives off of identical plots of land under identical weather and soil conditions with identical plants and identical families. Of course, Marx by no stretch imagined such a world, but the idea is nonetheless applicable. The more equality and the more communism you have, the less structure and the less society and the less government you have. The less government you have, the less unification and the less coordination you have. The less coordination you have, the less of everything you have. A civilization without a government is not a civilization at all, and any semblance it would initially have to a civilization would quickly disintegrate as nothing gets done because there are no leaders to coordinate people to get it done. Even good-natured, honest, unselfish, and intelligent people cannot coordinate themselves and equally contribute in every task like road-building or pipe-making. Good-natured, honest, unselfish, and intelligent people can disagree with each other, and without a leader to give a unifying vision, any complicated projects these purely-democratic groups attempt will be hugely inefficient and probably ineffective. As such a leaderless society can only result in abject poverty for all. Even if human beings were willing to give up absolute power after acquiring it in the process of redistributing property, it would absolutely annihilate civilization. This is why I consider Marxist theory to be utter nonsense undeserving of the name of "theory".
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  #30  
Old 02-17-2011, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Political views?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
I think your rather childish insults should remain to yourself, for your pubescent goading will not get me to lash out at you. On further thought however, it is not the fact that it is childish, rather it is because you are ignorant and will not listen to another opinion. You are as bad as a Catholic, you do not listen to something, and if you disagree with it you instantly spit it out and label it an evil ideal.

Anyway, in other news. Is it not human nature to think that you are the center of the world? We all at least go through a stage of it in our lives. And since not everyone is interested in the common good, and would rather work to sustain themselves, Marxism would never work.

The beef I have with Socialism is not the idea that everyone is equal to a certain extent, rather the problem I have with it is the economy. But, that is a totally different argument. The point is, there will AWAYS be someone out there thinking about himself and not about others, thus Marxism would never work.

And considering Animal Farm was written by a survivor of the Spanish Communist purges of 1938 named George Orwell, I think it is a rather accurate account of Communist mayhem.
Marxism works on paper because just like dogs humans can be trained to think differently. Once again a tendency to fall into a self centered pattern does not mean that pattern is guaranteed. Marx said that pretty much the people as a whole will be trained to not think self centered because of the mindset of the community. And we may never know it will work because its a slow process that no one can even follow correctly. Look at Russia. They read the cliff-notes and decided to skip a third of the process.

Kurt Vonnegut was a soldier in World War II and wrote a fictional novel on how he felt on the war (Slaughterhouse 5). An author's feelings towards an event that are portrayed in a novel aren't "accurate" to what actually happened they are strictly limited to the authors view. So even though Orwell did survive the Spanish Purges he only wrote how he felt about it not about what actually happened or how everything came into fruition. Ellie Weisel (sp?) was a survivor of the holocaust at least he wrote a factual account of what happened to him during his experiences he wrote about how he feels while telling us what actually happened to him. He didn't make the subject matter figurative he made a real memoir. Animal Farm is in the fiction section for a reason because its an opinion based book on human nature based on the author's views of human nature. He may have gotten those views from what happened to him but his views are not "accurate" to what was really happening in that period.
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