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  #1  
Old 05-13-2010, 11:32 AM
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Default [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

First of all, just want to say that I have nothing against Smogon or its tiering system. This is merely a possible alternative. This isn’t a thread for bashing them; if you want to do that, go somewhere else.

Ever wanted to try competitive battling but with a bigger, more varied mix of used Pokémon?

Dragoon952 has come up with a “Points Value System”, where each Pokémon has a value. Strong Pokémon such as Jirachi has a value of 28, whereas weaker Pokémon such as Luxray have a value of 9. Instead of battling in tiers, you and your opponent decide what value your teams will use. Because of this, you’ll see more Pokemon that would otherwise be ignored, such as Pinsir and Ampharos.

This thread is for discussion and testing of the PVS system. At the moment everything’s being tested, so everything isn’t finalised just yet. There are many Pokémon that have inaccurate values; these should all be fixed once we've had tests done. If you want to try it out, a team value of around 70-75 works well. Soon we’re hoping to get tournaments, etc set up, so any contributions would be welcome. There's a link to the playtesters' group at the bottom of this post.

Without further ado, here are the values for all the Pokémon tested so far. Values on the left are after reduction and rounding, values on the right are before:

As of 5/28/10:
Quote:
Abomasnow 11 106
Abra 6 61
Absol 11 108
Aerodactyl 19 192
Aggron 15 146
Alakazam 12 116
Altaria 14 141
Ambipom 11 108
Ampharos 7 75
Arbok 7 72
Arcanine 11 114
Ariados 5 53
Armaldo 8 77
Articuno 11 110
Azelf 14 145
Azumarill 8 80
Banette 8 78
Bastiodon 10 103
Beautifly 6 62
Beedrill 7 73
Bellossom 7 67
Bibarel 11 106
Blastoise 10 101
Blaziken 14 142
Blissey 23 228
Breloom 11 112
Bronzong 15 155
Butterfree 6 60
Cacturne 10 102
Camerupt 8 85
Carnivine 6 59
Castform 6 60
Celebi 19 191
Chansey 19 194
Charizard 12 122
Chatot 11 105
Cherrim 7 65
Chimecho 8 80
Claydol 12 120
Clefable 13 130
Cloyster 10 102
Corsola 7 73
Cradily 11 107
Crawdaunt 10 103
Cresselia 13 126
Crobat 17 175
Delcatty 7 69
Delibird 5 52
Dewgong 10 104
Dodrio 10 98
Donphan 8 77
Dragonite 17 167
Drapion 14 142
Drifblim 14 141
Dugtrio 9 90
Dunsparce 10 96
Dusknoir 8 79
Dustox 7 75
Electabuzz 9 90
Electivire 11 115
Electrode 9 88
Empoleon 19 189
Entei 13 127
Espeon 11 110
Exeggutor 10 101
Exploud 7 67
Farfetch'd 7 68
Fearow 11 110
Feraligatr 10 101
Flareon 9 85
Floatzel 12 117
Flygon 18 179
Forretress 14 136
Froslass 15 151
Furret 7 75
Gallade 14 143
Garchomp 20 203
Gardevoir 10 103
Gastrodon 11 108
Gengar 17 165
Girafarig 10 97
Glaceon 8 80
Glalie 8 83
Gligar 13 128
Gliscor 17 168
Golduck 11 110
Golem 10 97
Gorebyss 7 72
Granbull 7 73
Grumpig 10 100
Gyarados 13 127
Hariyama 9 91
Heatran 24 244
Heracross 10 101
Hippowdon 12 125
Hitmonchan 7 72
Hitmonlee 8 78
Hitmontop 7 74
Honchkrow 13 133
Houndoom 15 145
Huntail 7 70
Hypno 8 83
Illumise 10 98
Infernape 21 209
Ivysaur 6 61
Jirachi 26 265
Jolteon 12 120
Jumpluff 10 101
Jynx 13 132
Kabutops 15 148
Kangaskhan 10 97
Kingdra 15 152
Lanturn 14 136
Latias 21 207
Leafeon 9 92
Lopunny 10 97
Lucario 18 183
Ludicolo 12 118
Luxray 8 83
Machamp 9 87
Magnezone 15 151
Mamoswine 15 150
Mawile 9 92
Meganium 8 77
Mesprit 12 120
Metagross 19 187
Milotic 12 116
Miltank 13 126
Minun 7 68
Mismagius 12 124
Moltres 11 111
Mothim 7 66
Nidoking 13 130
Nidoqueen 13 130
Ninetales 10 103
Ninjask 16 156
Omastar 12 123
Parasect 4 41
Pichu 3 33
Pidgeot 11 114
Pikachu 7 71
Plusle 7 68
Poliwrath 14 138
Porygon-Z 10 104
Probopass 12 121
Quagsire 10 103
Qwilfish 13 126
Raikou 12 121
Regirock 10 98
Registeel 18 184
Rhyperior 13 126
Roserade 11 109
Rotom 11 109
Rotom (Fan) 12 124
Rotom (Frost) 13 125
Rotom (Heat) 12 122
Rotom (Mow) 12 122
Rotom (Wash) 12 124
Salamence 19 189
Sceptile 10 104
Scizor 16 160
Scyther 9 92
Shaymin (Land) 11 111
Skarmory 18 183
Slowbro 9 93
Smeargle 15 148
Snorlax 11 109
Spiritomb 10 95
Stantler 8 83
Staraptor 14 143
Starmie 15 150
Steelix 14 144
Suicune 13 125
Swampert 14 139
Swellow 12 122
Tangrowth 9 88
Tentacruel 14 141
Togekiss 16 162
Torterra 10 103
Toxicroak 12 122
Tyranitar 20 203
Umbreon 12 117
Ursaring 7 72
Uxie 14 137
Vaporeon 12 124
Venusaur 9 89
Wailord 10 96
Walrein 11 114
Weavile 17 173
Weezing 7 68
Whiscash 11 114
Wigglytuff 11 109
Wurmple 1 7
Xatu 14 139
Yanmega 15 148
Zapdos 17 169
Serebii version of this thread, for anyone interested:
http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=427831

Serebii group for Playtesters:
http://www.serebiiforums.com/group.php?groupid=2660

PE2K group for Playtesters:
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/foru...hp?groupid=827

Thread featuring all Pokémon and their values:
http://www.prinnysquad.net/pokemon/PVS_03_05_10.xlsx
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Like competitive battling, but like using your favourite Pokemon even more? You might want to check this out!
PVS Playtesters Group

Last edited by Max211; 07-16-2010 at 02:07 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-13-2010, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

i like the idea behind this
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I completely agree, which is why I'm trying to get people here interested as well. If you want to try out a match, I have a 72-point team I can use.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Aha, I've seen this before on Serebii. I really do like the system and you have my full support. :] It's unique and something refreshing from the standard tiers. Hopefully, people won't misunderstand you.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I'd actually love to do a battle like this. Hopefully this will become on par with Smogon in terms of playstyle.

Wouldn't it be good to give Ubers values as well?

Last edited by Etymology; 05-13-2010 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJello View Post
I'd actually love to do a battle like this. Hopefully this will become on par with Smogon in terms of playstyle.

Wouldn't it be good to give Ubers values as well?
garchomp is on the list, i think we should try making this a tourny after the pe2k tourny ends. i think a lot of people would get involved
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadow Lord View Post
garchomp is on the list, i think we should try making this a tourny after the pe2k tourny ends. i think a lot of people would get involved
I wouldn't mind setting this up, it seems fun. And I noticed that Kyogre was placed on the spreadsheet you supplied. Interesting that it's valued at a lower number than Jirachi.

EDIT: Even more interesting is that No Guard Machamp is 8, whereas Beedrill is at 9. Intriguing.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I really like the idea, but I don't like whatever formulae are used (Serebii forums won't open on my iPhone). I'm suspicious about this current system, which puts jirachi above garchomp and xatu above suicune.

I'd be all for this if we tried doing it as a forum from the ground up. The current values are far too erratic and look like they're based on theorymon rather than actual playtesting.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Hi all. I was going to have Max pass info along, but I figured it might be easier for me to jsut post here, too. Glad to see there is some itnerest being generated!

Just to answer a few questiosn I've already seen here:

1.) Ubers are not "official" yet other than Garchomp. Unfortunately, mathematical equations can't cover everything, so a few special rules had to be made. One was already made for Scizor because of it's unique STAB Bullet Punch/Technician combo which I haven't entirely documented yet. Something similar will need to be done for Kyogre's Drizzle/Scarf/Water Spout combo where value will need added. Machamp will most likely get a boost too because of his unique No Guard/Dynamic Punch combo, since taking No GUard by itself into account didn't seem to do enough.

This will all come out in testing, obviously. The goal is to have a system where there is as little special exceptions as possible.

2.) I am heavily leaning towards making a new Stealth Rock weakness modifier to subtract off final values based on typing. Some values may not be accurate because that is not taken into account yet. So, some will msot likely be taken down a few notches. I'll probably wait until I have a few more pokemon figured out before I implement it, because I would nee to make a modifier that is fair across the board. As of now, a 10% reduction (rounded up) in value for 2x weakness and a 20% reduction in value (rounded up) for 4 x weakness sounds fair. It would drop Beedrill down one point from a 9 to an 8, for instance, but take Charizard down 4 points from a 19 to a 15. Not sure if that particular modifier will work, though. Just wanted you to know it is being worked on.

Anyway, I'm more than willing to answer questions and take suggestions. Jsut thought I might as well make my presence known here as well.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTT View Post
I really like the idea, but I don't like whatever formulae are used (Serebii forums won't open on my iPhone). I'm suspicious about this current system, which puts jirachi above garchomp and xatu above suicune.

I'd be all for this if we tried doing it as a forum from the ground up. The current values are far too erratic and look like they're based on theorymon rather than actual playtesting.
It is mostly theory at this stage. The main theory is comparing a Pokemon to all other pokemon in a vacuum "first turn out," testing it's effectiveness based upon a chance of facing off a variety of other opponents rather than basing it just off of possible opponents in a tier. However, there is rprobably no 100% effective way of measuring effectiveness a few turns out. An Ursaring right out of the gate is different than an Ursaring with Quick Feet activated and a Swords Dance under its belt facing a new switch in.

The equations are just a base, but I wanted to make a system where things can easily be "tacked on" so to speak. Stealth Rock damage is a good example, because I've yet to take that into account. But, I tried to mathematically take things like typing, movepool, support options, etc. into account and am looking to tweak it as it goes on. So, versatility is factored in as much as possible. Jirachi may be higher because of it's sheer versatility and options availble, whereas maybe Machamp isn't as high because it is one dimensional (even though it might do reall well with its one dimension). It's trying to compare abilities with a single system because it is otherwise difficult to make a baseline comparison between Blissey's walling capability and Garchomp's offesnive capability, for instance. It is trying to answer the question "Can Blissey take a hit as well as Garchomp can throw a punch?" rather than posing the question of comparing how hard they both punch.

This is still early stage. It's just now fleshed out enough to playtest a bit.

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-13-2010 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
Hi all. I was going to have Max pass info along, but I figured it might be easier for me to jsut post here, too. Glad to see there is some itnerest being generated!

Just to answer a few questiosn I've already seen here:

1.) Ubers are not "official" yet other than Garchomp. Unfortunately, mathematical equations can't cover everything, so a few special rules had to be made. One was already made for Scizor because of it's unique STAB Bullet Punch/Technician combo which I haven't entirely documented yet. Something similar will need to be done for Kyogre's Drizzle/Scarf/Water Spout combo where value will need added. Machamp will most likely get a boost too because of his unique No Guard/Dynamic Punch combo, since taking No GUard by itself into account didn't seem to do enough.

This will all come out in testing, obviously. The goal is to have a system where there is as little special exceptions as possible.

2.) I am heavily leaning towards making a new Stealth Rock weakness modifier to subtract off final values based on typing. Some values may not be accurate because that is not taken into account yet. So, some will msot likely be taken down a few notches. I'll probably wait until I have a few more pokemon figured out before I implement it, because I would nee to make a modifier that is fair across the board. As of now, a 10% reduction (rounded up) in value for 2x weakness and a 20% reduction in value (rounded up) for 4 x weakness sounds fair. It would drop Beedrill down one point from a 9 to an 8, for instance, but take Charizard down 4 points from a 19 to a 15. Not sure if that particular modifier will work, though. Just wanted you to know it is being worked on.

Anyway, I'm more than willing to answer questions and take suggestions. Jsut thought I might as well make my presence known here as well.
I like the sounds of this system, but you included Garchomp, but no Wynaut, Wobbufett, Phione, or Manaphy?
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy the Great View Post
I like the sounds of this system, but you included Garchomp, but no Wynaut, Wobbufett, Phione, or Manaphy?
I intend to have all 493 pokemon completed in the end. The only reason Garchomp is in there is because, early on when I first was working on this, I wanted to do a few from each tier to see if this was even close to being accurate in terms of representing value. I picked Garchomp jsut to see what number would churn out compared to pokemon in other tiers. I "published" its value so it can be playtested if people want to do so, that's all. Wynaut and Wobbuffet will probably be worked out last becuase they have such a unique ability that they will need special rules.

Eventually they will get there.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

As a former heroclix player, I LOVE the concept, it's right up my ally.
I do question a few of the values, but understand that it's still an early formula.
GL, I hope this catches on.
EDIT: I think I'll test this around Gaia, kinda spread it around (giving you credit of course) allowing for more tests, and report back the findings, if that is fine with you two

Last edited by Flu; 05-13-2010 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flu View Post
As a former heroclix player, I LOVE the concept, it's right up my ally.
I do question a few of the values, but understand that it's still an early formula.
GL, I hope this catches on.
EDIT: I think I'll test this around Gaia, kinda spread it around (giving you credit of course) allowing for more tests, and report back the findings, if that is fine with you two
The more testing the better. Like I said, this was an attempt to quantify a pokemon in a vacuum. If a pokemon seems grossly out of whack, it would be nice to know why it is that way. It could be that something is not being taken into account, the equations are dead wrong to start with, or it could simply be a comparion problem. It's easy to say "A kicks B's butt but A is rated less than B," even though maybe B might be more versatile and might be more valuable in a greater number of situations. Counters aren't necessarily more valuable than the Pokemon they are countering.

Like I said though, this isn't completely finished because not all Pokemon values have been calculated yet. OU and UU have been done, it will jsut take a while to work through the NU's and NFE.

My goal is to just make a flexible system that brings out variety. Almost like boxing weight classes for teams. Differentiate a "lightweight" rapid spinner from a "heavyweight" rapid spinner rather than simply asking who is the best rapid spinner. The best one might cost a lot in terms of value and take away from other areas of your team.

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-13-2010 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

i like the idea but i dont understand why some pokemon have such a low point total. for that reason i think it may need more work
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