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  #61  
Old 03-15-2011, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Darker skin has something to do with survival in the wilderness and loss of human hair. In short, to help adapt, fix a problem.

Homosexuality just genes gone wrong in the human bio. Heterosexuality doesn't need fixing. Its function is to ensure procreation.
Actually, no one knows what the evolutionary cause for darker skin is, or for any skin color, but right now it's believed to be in response to varying factors causing different strength levels of sunlight, Vitamin K, etc. Which isn't about survival in the wilderness.

Also, let's repeat: HUMANS ARE BEYOND EXISTING PURELY TO PASS ON THE GENES.

Quote:
I do not mean wrong in the sense of morality. I mean it as a problem. Like when an engine isn't functioning properly because something is wrong in the design. An organism with the wrong design either dies out or changes. In science we may have seen everything but do humans reproduce asexually? No. Cross-species breeding is more common in the lab. Males are meant to be with females, or at least they are meant to be attracted to the opposite sex in order to procreate. Organisms are meant to multiply. Same-sex attraction gets you no where.

...

In case in it isn't clear yet. No, I am not a religious person.
The engine isn't malfunctioning, though. Homosexuality does not affect the individual's quality of life, like certain genetic diseases, beyond the social stigma. Nor is it detrimental to the species as a whole, being that the gene for homosexuality, based on statistics and Mendelian principles, is both uncommon and recessive. So therefore, it is not wrong, neither morally nor biologically.
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  #62  
Old 03-15-2011, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Darker skin has something to do with survival in the wilderness and loss of human hair. In short, to help adapt, fix a problem.

Homosexuality just genes gone wrong in the human bio. Heterosexuality doesn't need fixing. Its function is to ensure procreation.

...

In case in it isn't clear yet. No, I am not a religious person.
I made the same argument, but through much enlightening and the fact that arguing with Kenny is pointless since he is studying this stuff, I learned that no, not all genetic mutations necessarily serve a purpose.

Cancer is genetic, does that mean it serves a good purpose? No. Heart attacks, high blood pressure, etc can all be genetic, but they do not benefit us.

I assure you that if half the population of the world became homosexual, the rest of the world would still make up the difference.
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  #63  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
Actually, no one knows what the evolutionary cause for darker skin is, or for any skin color, but right now it's believed to be in response to varying factors causing different strength levels of sunlight, Vitamin K, etc. Which isn't about survival in the wilderness.

Also, let's repeat: HUMANS ARE BEYOND EXISTING PURELY TO PASS ON THE GENES.



The engine isn't malfunctioning, though. Homosexuality does not affect the individual's quality of life, like certain genetic diseases, beyond the social stigma. Nor is it detrimental to the species as a whole, being that the gene for homosexuality, based on statistics and Mendelian principles, is both uncommon and recessive. So therefore, it is not wrong, neither morally nor biologically.
Well, a light skinned person wouldn't have exactly survived in the heat of Australia or Africa.

Let me ask you this. What's keeping you from taking your own life away?

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
I made the same argument, but through much enlightening and the fact that arguing with Kenny is pointless since he is studying this stuff, I learned that no, not all genetic mutations necessarily serve a purpose.

Cancer is genetic, does that mean it serves a good purpose? No. Heart attacks, high blood pressure, etc can all be genetic, but they do not benefit us.

I assure you that if half the population of the world became homosexual, the rest of the world would still make up the difference.
Cancer. Another good example of things going wrong in the human bio.
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  #64  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:51 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Well, a light skinned person wouldn't have exactly survived in the heat of Australia or Africa.
>implying there aren't plenty of white people in Australia and Africa

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Let me ask you this. What's keeping you from taking your own life away?
My life's calling of teaching the need to protect my sister a very long and interesting bucket list my desire to get married and have children, some biological but mostly adopted, wanting to see my cousins grow up knowing the people close to me would be hurt by it recognizing that it serves absolutely no purpose *long breath* and knowing that if I were to kill myself it would mean that whatever drove me to it would win and I absolutely positively refuse to accept defeat especially in that vein. Why do you ask?
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  #65  
Old 03-15-2011, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lord Khajmer View Post
>implying there aren't plenty of white people in Australia and Africa
They migrated. There is a correlation between natives and their dark skin.

BTW, you forgot the color.
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My life's calling of teaching the need to protect my sister a very long and interesting bucket list my desire to get married and have children, some biological but mostly adopted, wanting to see my cousins grow up knowing the people close to me would be hurt by it recognizing that it serves absolutely no purpose *long breath* and knowing that if I were to kill myself it would mean that whatever drove me to it would win and I absolutely positively refuse to accept defeat especially in that vein. Why do you ask?
Exactly. All subject to your mind, circumstances, and experiences but your body's ultimate function is to reproduce.
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  #66  
Old 03-15-2011, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Well, a light skinned person wouldn't have exactly survived in the heat of Australia or Africa.

Let me ask you this. What's keeping you from taking your own life away?



Cancer. Another good example of things going wrong in the human bio.
The irresistible urge to obey survival instinct.

Plenty of light skinned people live in Africa.

How in the world could you compare cancer with the homosexual gene? In no way are the remotely similar. Cancer KILLS, gay DOESN'T.

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They migrated. There is a correlation between natives and their dark skin.

BTW, you forgot the color.


Exactly. All subject to your mind, circumstances, and experiences but your body's ultimate function is to reproduce.
It means nothing that they migrated. They still survive today and they are not black. It is not okay to say something like that, since there is still existing evidence to completely disprove what you said.

Your body's ultimate function is to keep you alive. If you were having sexual intercourse with a prostitute, and some guy came in through the window with a weapon, you would instinctively duck, not caring about the prostitute or your need to reproduce. Your own survival is held in the primary objective slot in your mind.

If you learned that your girl friend had AIDS or uncontrolled HIV, would you have sex with her? No. Probably not? Wanna know why? You wanna stay alive, not caring about reproducing.
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  #67  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Cancer. Another good example of things going wrong in the human bio.
It's actually an example of how incredibly resilient the human genome is. We as humans accumulate millions of mutations on a daily basis, and yet for some strange and miraculous reason we can tolerate so many of these mutations with ease. Cancers in general doesn't show up until later on in life (50's) specifically because of our resilience. The number of mutations and changes that a cancer cell has to have must be able to survive a plethora of the human's defenses through mutation accumulation (i.e. enough oncogenes and telomerase to ensure dividing ability, making the cell cycle deregulated via cyclin mutations, increase autocrine activity, suppression of tumour suppressor genes, deregulation of MHC class I receptors but not to much to avoid both NK and Cytotoxic T cell mediated destruction, maintain sufficient surface antigens to avoid complement-mediated cytolysis, deregulation of adherence factors, increase generation of metalloproteinases for motion through the matrix of the body, autocrines to allow for movement in the first place, etc.). It's a LOT of things that need to go right for the cancer cell for it to even work as cancer. Give ourselves at least some credit where it's due. Kick ourselves in the foot where it's due as well (cardiac circulation, tracheal/esophageal divide).

Our body:
It's a product of our genes at specific time frames. Nothing more, nothing less. Its function is as dictated by the genes, which may include reproduction depending on how the genes function. For example, a man with 46XX is definitely a man by our societal standards. This man, however, cannot reproduce. Thus the genes have dictated that men with 46XX chromosomes only really are there to survive. What I'm trying to get at is that our bodies are a by-product of our genes, not that our bodies are made to spread the genes, because let's face it: we are very inefficient vessels for genetic transfer and multiplication.

Most people don't want to die not because of their instinct, but rather because of their own psychological inference that they want to live. That is, we have control over our own body and their instinctive properties specifically because of our frontal cortex. It wouldn't make sense otherwise to see suicide occur, because obviously suicide neither keeps you alive nor help you reproduce. People still do it because their mind overpowers such instinct.

Skin colour is an interesting subject. Sort of. Most people think it's an adaptation (i.e. darker skin has increased survivability in the tropics). They are polymorphisms of each other, the different shades of skin colour.
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  #68  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

But you notice suicidal people are still reluctant to follow through. The person may have the gun to his head, but he will try not to pull the trigger. He can't do it, but he wants to do it. Get what I am saying? It is instinct to survive, rather people want to die because of psychological interference.
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  #69  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
The irresistible urge to obey survival instinct.

Plenty of light skinned people live in Africa.

How in the world could you compare cancer with the homosexual gene? In no way are the remotely similar. Cancer KILLS, gay DOESN'T.
No but both hinder you.

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
It means nothing that they migrated. They still survive today and they are not black. It is not okay to say something like that, since there is still existing evidence to completely disprove what you said.
Well obviously they survive. We can also think to overcome obstacles. But light skinned people would've probably had a hard time living in those conditions thousands of years ago.

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
Your body's ultimate function is to keep you alive.
And then divide... multiply in our case.

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
If you were having sexual intercourse with a prostitute, and some guy came in through the window with a weapon, you would instinctively duck, not caring about the prostitute or your need to reproduce. Your own survival is held in the primary objective slot in your mind.
Closed situation. We aren't having sex all the time.

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
If you learned that your girl friend had AIDS or uncontrolled HIV, would you have sex with her? No. Probably not? Wanna know why? You wanna stay alive, not caring about reproducing.
But she isn't the only girl in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
It's actually an example of how incredibly resilient the human genome is. We as humans accumulate millions of mutations on a daily basis, and yet for some strange and miraculous reason we can tolerate so many of these mutations with ease. Cancers in general doesn't show up until later on in life (50's) specifically because of our resilience. The number of mutations and changes that a cancer cell has to have must be able to survive a plethora of the human's defenses through mutation accumulation (i.e. enough oncogenes and telomerase to ensure dividing ability, making the cell cycle deregulated via cyclin mutations, increase autocrine activity, suppression of tumour suppressor genes, deregulation of MHC class I receptors but not to much to avoid both NK and Cytotoxic T cell mediated destruction, maintain sufficient surface antigens to avoid complement-mediated cytolysis, deregulation of adherence factors, increase generation of metalloproteinases for motion through the matrix of the body, autocrines to allow for movement in the first place, etc.). It's a LOT of things that need to go right for the cancer cell for it to even work as cancer. Give ourselves at least some credit where it's due. Kick ourselves in the foot where it's due as well (cardiac circulation, tracheal/esophageal divide).

Our body:
It's a product of our genes at specific time frames. Nothing more, nothing less. Its function is as dictated by the genes, which may include reproduction depending on how the genes function. For example, a man with 46XX is definitely a man by our societal standards. This man, however, cannot reproduce. Thus the genes have dictated that men with 46XX chromosomes only really are there to survive. What I'm trying to get at is that our bodies are a by-product of our genes, not that our bodies are made to spread the genes, because let's face it: we are very inefficient vessels for genetic transfer and multiplication.

Most people don't want to die not because of their instinct, but rather because of their own psychological inference that they want to live. That is, we have control over our own body and their instinctive properties specifically because of our frontal cortex. It wouldn't make sense otherwise to see suicide occur, because obviously suicide neither keeps you alive nor help you reproduce. People still do it because their mind overpowers such instinct.

Skin colour is an interesting subject. Sort of. Most people think it's an adaptation (i.e. darker skin has increased survivability in the tropics). They are polymorphisms of each other, the different shades of skin colour.
Even if we are a by-product of our genes, there is a general format for a human being. Two hands, two legs, two arms, 2 eyes, 1 head, 2 ears, a liver, 2 lungs, 5 fingers on each hand, being able to reproduce, wanting to reproduce with the opposite sex, etc, etc. Homosexuality is when something goes wrong like when may be born with 6 fingers on one hand instead of the 5. The man that cannot reproduce even though he may want to, is another example of a person that has something wrong with him.
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  #70  
Old 03-16-2011, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

Instead of stating your assumptions as fact I implore you use factual evidence.

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No but both hinder you.
Cancers hinders body functions that doesn't need to be proven. Prove that homosexuality literally hurts the individual. Humans are one of two creatures, the other being dolphins, that have sex for pleasure as well as procreation. What is the difference from a homosexual wanting to have sex with his partner and another man having sex using the hypothetical 100% fail proof birth control device every time to prevent his partner from getting pregnant. On a procreational stance there is no difference. Why is the birth control man considered perfectly fine and the homosexual considered wrong?

Quote:
Even if we are a by-product of our genes, there is a general format for a human being. Two hands, two legs, two arms, 2 eyes, 1 head, 2 ears, a liver, 2 lungs, 5 fingers on each hand, being able to reproduce, wanting to reproduce with the opposite sex, etc, etc.

You got this format where? Is there some scientific journal I never heard of that states all humans must follow this pattern and everyone outside of this format has something "wrong" with them? Or are you just making this up because you assume this is the "right" way because it is most common? Quite frankly you have a bad habit of stating your assumptions and opinions as fact without giving any evidence to prove them true.

There is no format for which a human must exist from its genetic make up. The format you spoke of is nothing but the most common form of human existence so people outside of that norm are different and nothing more.
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  #71  
Old 03-16-2011, 02:13 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
They migrated. There is a correlation between natives and their dark skin.
Okay, please stop acting like you know what you're talking about. No one knows the evolutionary source of dark skin. It might have absolute jack to do with survival.

Quote:
Exactly. All subject to your mind, circumstances, and experiences but your body's ultimate function is to reproduce.
... how did you glean my body's so-called "ultimate function" of reproduction from that? The only thing that's even remotely related to it is the wanting a family part, and that's got nothing to do with biological reproduction (I'd be just as happy with all adopted children as I would if some were my biological children), nor does it have anything to do with my heterosexuality. And the others were all, literally all, about living life to the fullest, or the happiness of the people closest to me.

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No but both hinder you.
How does homosexuality hinder you? (and let's be clear here, I reject that we as individuals need to reproduce. That's absolutely ridiculous, humanity as a species is beyond existing purely to reproduce, as evidenced by the large number of people who live wonderfully and happily without ever having kids.

Quote:
Even if we are a by-product of our genes, there is a general format for a human being. Two hands, two legs, two arms, 2 eyes, 1 head, 2 ears, a liver, 2 lungs, 5 fingers on each hand, being able to reproduce, wanting to reproduce with the opposite sex, etc, etc. Homosexuality is when something goes wrong like when may be born with 6 fingers on one hand instead of the 5. The man that cannot reproduce even though he may want to, is another example of a person that has something wrong with him.
Except that a homosexual is capable of reproduction, particularly with modern science. They simply aren't attracted to women, which makes it difficult to do in the "traditional" way. They can, however, reproduce.
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  #72  
Old 03-16-2011, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

I think it's beyond question that homosexuality is abnormal as far as biology is concerned, but I think whether it is wrong is a different matter. To say that it is "wrong" implies that homosexual behavior has a negative impact on the person. While this may be true, it is only due to society that homosexuality can have a negative impact on a person; in a vacuum of culture and sexual preferences, homosexuality does no harm to anyone. Thus while it is certainly abnormal, to say that it is wrong is implying all sorts of negative meaning.

Also, there's nothing programmed into humanity as a whole to ensure the survival of the species. People are primarily concerned with their own welfare, that is why many engage in destructive actions that endanger the survival of the species. This also stretches to reproduction, which is why in many developed countries population is declining as people are simply not reproducing enough to sustain population levels. This fact is irrefutable evidence against any claim that humans are genetically predisposed to ensure the survival of the species through reproduction.
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  #73  
Old 03-16-2011, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Even if we are a by-product of our genes, there is a general format for a human being. Two hands, two legs, two arms, 2 eyes, 1 head, 2 ears, a liver, 2 lungs, 5 fingers on each hand, being able to reproduce, wanting to reproduce with the opposite sex, etc, etc. Homosexuality is when something goes wrong like when may be born with 6 fingers on one hand instead of the 5. The man that cannot reproduce even though he may want to, is another example of a person that has something wrong with him.
We don't necessarily have a blueprint per se either. You are oversimplifying the process though. If my brain develops in a way that I am homosexual, but the actual brain itself is within normal limits (as is true in homosexuals), then how is it empircally wrong either? There's nothing wrong with the hardware, per se. It's simply that there's some genetic modifications early in fetal life that changes the temperment and sexual preferences of the person that the fetus eventually becomes.

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I think it's beyond question that homosexuality is abnormal as far as biology is concerned
That's because it isn't. From a pure molecular biological standpoint, the commonality of homosexuals makes it more a polymorphism in additional to something that's likely under epigenetic control. The fact that we do know that this is a common variant, but is likely controlled epigenetically, should give you a clue that this really shouldn't be considered abnormal. Most certainly psychiatrically speaking it isn't abnormal: it doesn't appear in DSM IV (the manual for psychiatric abnormalities).

I more or less agree with the rest of your statement though.
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
We don't necessarily have a blueprint per se either. You are oversimplifying the process though. If my brain develops in a way that I am homosexual, but the actual brain itself is within normal limits (as is true in homosexuals), then how is it empircally wrong either? There's nothing wrong with the hardware, per se. It's simply that there's some genetic modifications early in fetal life that changes the temperment and sexual preferences of the person that the fetus eventually becomes.



That's because it isn't. From a pure molecular biological standpoint, the commonality of homosexuals makes it more a polymorphism in additional to something that's likely under epigenetic control. The fact that we do know that this is a common variant, but is likely controlled epigenetically, should give you a clue that this really shouldn't be considered abnormal. Most certainly psychiatrically speaking it isn't abnormal: it doesn't appear in DSM IV (the manual for psychiatric abnormalities).

I more or less agree with the rest of your statement though.
Well, other perspectives should be considered as well. Normality, of course, is subjective, but the standard of "normal" is generally what is average, commonplace, etc. By and large, most sexually reproducing organisms are heterosexual; thus, heterosexuality is normal. Homosexuality is a small minority, therefore it is abnormal, or, to use a synonymous term, unusual. For the same reason, large quantities of black people in Japan is unusual, even if there is nothing inherently unusual about having dark skin. I am no expert in this matter of course, and I will defer to your understanding of what is considered normal or abnormal in biology, but the percentage of people self-identifying as homosexual is 4% in the US, and seems to be roughly around that in other Western countries. ADHD, which is considered abnormal, is diagnosed in 9% of American children between 8 to 15%, so going off commonality alone it would seem that homosexuality could conceivably qualify as abnormal (I know that this is not a far assessment as there are other factors involved in considering something abnormal, but it is one piece of the puzzle). I also would like to ask if being genetically abnormal is the same thing as being biologically abnormal, because I would think that as there are things that can be abnormal without having discernible genetic cause (i.e. a person exposed to extreme conditions in childhood could grow abnormally despite being genetically perfect), one cannot simply equate the two.
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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No but both hinder you.


Well obviously they survive. We can also think to overcome obstacles. But light skinned people would've probably had a hard time living in those conditions thousands of years ago.


And then divide... multiply in our case.


Closed situation. We aren't having sex all the time.



But she isn't the only girl in the world.

Um, there were white people in Africa a thousand years ago. Try the ancient Greeks and Romans. White people can survive in the area, stop talking.

But by your logic, we live to do nothing but reproduce, suggesting that is what we live for, am I correct? Maybe you should realize that reproduction is not as important as your own survival. And that is what your body's function is, why else would you need bones? To keep your body together. Why else do we have eyes in the front of our heads? So we can hunt. Why do we have a nose? To breathe the air. Why do we have legs? So we can move. Without any of this, we would simply not exist as a human, and we most certainty would not be where we are today.
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