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  #1  
Old 08-13-2010, 01:03 AM
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Default Origin of the universe?

What is the origin of the universe? Why?

Or is it something that never could be understood or known?
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2010, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

I believe in creation. Science can prove only so much, but the universe just having a spontaneous 'beginning' like the Big Bang, without any real purpose, is just a theory that has yet to include any irrefutable proof. Besides, without the universe having a real reason for existing, that suggests that life itself is truly meaningless and living life with the knowledge that it's all for nothing is quite depressing.
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  #3  
Old 08-13-2010, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylands View Post
I believe in creation. Science can prove only so much, but the universe just having a spontaneous 'beginning' like the Big Bang, without any real purpose, is just a theory that has yet to include any irrefutable proof.
Scientific theory is not the same thing as the common man lingo of "theory", which is the one you're thinking of. Secondly, have you actually taking a course on Astronomy to understand how they've actually calculated how the Big Bang happened? Or at least read up on it?

Note that I never used "why" but "how". Science is the explanation of "how", not "why", which is exactly why people don't understand why science isn't going to tell you anytime soon whether or not God exists (a metaphysical issue vs a physical understanding AND God existing has to do with "why" and not "how"). That is exactly why religion and science can coexist without stepping on each other's foot.

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Originally Posted by Skylands View Post
Besides, without the universe having a real reason for existing, that suggests that life itself is truly meaningless and living life with the knowledge that it's all for nothing is quite depressing.
This is a more spiritual issue, but I disagree with your statement. For me, I think that even under the circumstance that the universe itself has no "reason for existence", life does not have to be meaningless. Life is meaningless only if you attribute a lack of meaning to it. In fact, I think that understanding that we are here on Earth only for a short period of time (whether or not we go to Heaven, or transmigrate as I see it) that we make value out of what we know. I understand that my meaning in life right now is to get through med school and serve my community. That part of my meaning in life is my love for my family, friends, and (would-be) spouse. There is no intrinsic meaning to any of this under either circumstance that the universe has or has no meaning. It is my own attributed value that gives this meaning.

Therefore, what I'm trying to say is that all you need to do is look around you. You don't need a Bible (or in my case, a scroll/booklet/etc.) to tell you what you need to value and what you don't need to value. It's what you understand and attribute value that gives things meaning.
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Old 08-13-2010, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylands View Post
I believe in creation. Science can prove only so much, but the universe just having a spontaneous 'beginning' like the Big Bang, without any real purpose, is just a theory that has yet to include any irrefutable proof. Besides, without the universe having a real reason for existing, that suggests that life itself is truly meaningless and living life with the knowledge that it's all for nothing is quite depressing.
Meaning in and of itself is a human concept. Things only have meaning as long as someone attributes to it a meaning. Hence, if life doesn't have some grand metaphysical meaning, well, everything else is in the same boat.
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Old 08-14-2010, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Skylands View Post
Science can prove only so much, but the universe just having a spontaneous 'beginning' like the Big Bang, without any real purpose, is just a theory that has yet to include any irrefutable proof.
Creation doesn't have any more proof than evolution or the Big Bang. All we really have to go off of is the Bible, and that is hardly irrefutable proof. It was written by a man, at some point in time, and men are hardly infallible.

Just my two cents.
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Note that I never used "why" but "how". Science is the explanation of "how", not "why"
Agreed one hundred percent.

Many people fail to understand this. There is no reason to doubt the Big Bang theory, but many people in their ignorance make it overstep its authority, and thus arrive at the conclusion that Big Bang would act as a substitute for God. Big Bang is a theory we use to explain the State of the Universe after the Origin, and not a Theory that explains the Origin itself. So technically Big Bang isnt the Cause of the Universe, rather the Description of the State of the Universe after its Origin.

And another important thing is emphasis should be put on what Kenny wrote. Science can only go so far to explain how stuff happen, not why they do. For instance: Why does an apple fall to the ground? No it is not because of Gravity, Gravity is the explanation of how it falls to the ground and not why. That is not within the authority of Empirical Knowledge, in other words, Science, to determine why stuff happen.

Quote:
which is exactly why people don't understand why science isn't going to tell you anytime soon whether or not God exists (a metaphysical issue vs a physical understanding AND God existing has to do with "why" and not "how"). That is exactly why religion and science can coexist without stepping on each other's foot.
I agree and disagree, but agree for the most part. We have Philosophical evidences circulating around us which have tried to establish the existence of God. Admittedly, these do not prove the concept of any personal God which Interacts with Humanity, sends Prophets with Revelations, etc. And using the laws of Philosophy and Science, Id say that is something that an never be proven, like Kenny wrote. However, to a certain, and limited, extent, Philosophical Evidences have been around, which prove the existence of God to a certain extent. For instance, the Cosmological Argument, thought to be the brainchild of St. Thomas Aquinas(correct me if Im wrong here), is able to prove the existence of a Creator, and the attribute of Him/Her/Its being Eternal. The Argument from Design gives us reason to think that the Universe has been Designed by Someone with Free Will and Intellect. But again, the scope of these arguments are limited.

Another thing we should stop to consider is, many times different attributes of God are put forth by Different religions. So it actually falls on the religion preaching its God to prove what it claims to be true. In other words, the argument which we could hope to prove the existence of a Personal God with certain Divine Attributes would be like this:

Premise 1. Religion "X" preaches Concept of God "X"
Premise 2. Religion "X" is True
Conclusion Therefore Concept of God "X" Exists.

What is a very important matter here is, we should not really be hung up on "proof" all the while. Quite often in our lives we do stuff even though they do not have any physical evidence of Truth attached to them. We take decisions in fields of Socilogy, Politics and so on, yet we know very well that these decisions do not have any evidences. What they have instead is a Reason. In other words, the decisions we make in these cases are for the most part not based on "Evidence" But "Pragmatic Reason". On that note, nothing cannot really be "proven" as understood in mathematics. So if you are talking about religion, your decision on religion should be based on the pragmatism of your decision and not on proof. Let me clarify this from an example of Politics: lets say a copuntry is left an option between two decisions. One is to accept an IMF offer and enjoy some international political rights, and the other is to reject the offer and suffer some Economical Constraints. Now if the country says "well I cant accept the offer since it has no evidence" then we would say thats not good reasoning. Because basically by choosing to not make a decision, the country actually IS making a decision, which seems to be potentially harmful economically! So the smart thing to do in this case would be to accept a choice that is reasonable and pragmatic, and not wait for proof to visit you. In the case of Religions similarly, instead of waiting for proof, make a choice which is pragmatic and reasonable. If a certain religion appeals to you as being reasonable, more reasonable than not having any religion at all for instance, then by all means the smart choice would be to accept it. If you think none of the religions are reasonable, and every religion, from an intellectual level, stands on the same level as Atheism, then intellectually you can do whatever you want and that would still be a rational decision.

Quote:
This is a more spiritual issue, but I disagree with your statement. For me, I think that even under the circumstance that the universe itself has no "reason for existence", life does not have to be meaningless. Life is meaningless only if you attribute a lack of meaning to it. In fact, I think that understanding that we are here on Earth only for a short period of time (whether or not we go to Heaven, or transmigrate as I see it) that we make value out of what we know. I understand that my meaning in life right now is to get through med school and serve my community. That part of my meaning in life is my love for my family, friends, and (would-be) spouse. There is no intrinsic meaning to any of this under either circumstance that the universe has or has no meaning. It is my own attributed value that gives this meaning.

Therefore, what I'm trying to say is that all you need to do is look around you. You don't need a Bible (or in my case, a scroll/booklet/etc.) to tell you what you need to value and what you don't need to value. It's what you understand and attribute value that gives things meaning
To a certain extent Id agree with it. However these reasons are when we consider what we do presently as the big picture itself, and not parts and portions of the big picture which is our life on this earth. Once you realize that there is no meaning to this big picture, except the meanings we attribute to parts of it, it seems demotivational. Even Irrational, if you are willing to accept the argument from Design, since that would mean that a being with intellect Designed everything minutely and with fine details for no reasons whatsoever.

Also, there can and cannot be intrinsic meaning to our life on this earth (considering the life to be a big picture as I wrote above). That is open to debate. Like I said, since religions propose meanings for our lives, then its up to that religion to appeal to us as intellectually acceptable choices. If a religion lives up to the criterion for it to be intellectually acceptable, then whatever meaning it propagates is true and that in turn is the true meaning behind our existence.
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Meaning in and of itself is a human concept. Things only have meaning as long as someone attributes to it a meaning.
This is only a personal assessment on the issue and not irrefutably universally true. The Universe can have a Grand Metaphysical Meaning to it, and it is not necessarily a human concept. There are many ideologies out there that attribute meanings to this universe. Not to give any of them any benefit of doubt at all would be narrow-minded.

Also, the implications of life having no meaning are touched in my previous post.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by gpFish View Post
What is the origin of the universe? Why?

Or is it something that never could be understood or known?
Well to address your issues specifically, first off reqad my previous post,

As to whether the Cause of our existence could be known or not, thats open to debate. I discussed this to a bit of detail in my previous post.

Hope this helps

And I would appreciate any comment/criticisms/criticism guised as questions lol
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Genesis 1
1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


best answer!!
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Draconic_Espeon View Post
Creation doesn't have any more proof than evolution or the Big Bang. All we really have to go off of is the Bible, and that is hardly irrefutable proof. It was written by a man, at some point in time, and men are hardly infallible.

Just my two cents.
Consider these:

1. If we assume for a moment that Evolution is not correct as a theory, then the door to opinions about this would be open: anyone can say anything and claim all hypotheses are of equal merit.

2. Creationism is not only preached by the Bible, other ideologies speak of it too. And the same thing that I said above would apply here, if a religion were to give proof OR be pragmatic, then whatever it preaches must also, in turn, have to be considered to be pragmatic and therefore true. If the Bible for instance appealed to us rationally to be intellectually sound and pragmatic, then Biblical Creationism too would have to be considered true, since the premise on which it is placed have been proven true.

Just my two cents.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconic_Espeon View Post
Creation doesn't have any more proof than evolution or the Big Bang. All we really have to go off of is the Bible, and that is hardly irrefutable proof. It was written by a man, at some point in time, and men are hardly infallible.

Just my two cents.
You forgot something. It was written by man, but inspired by God
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:11 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

In my opinion, the universe doesn't have to have a creator. As it's already been said (or not), God is what humans thought up to give to their life meaning and feel they has a purpose to accomplish. But the sheer fact that life appeared out of dead matter, and that it requires very specific and rare conditions in order to be maintained is something amazing, from a scientific point of view. We don't need a reason to live, because the fact that we live is a reason itself. We have the ability to think of why we are here. Isn't that awesome? Of course it is, considering that less than 0,00001% (or maybe even more) of the total matter in the universe participated in the creation of, and now is part of, living creatures. Our goal, thus, is to preserve the miracle of life, because it may be so rare (we don't even know if there's life beyond Earth). However, we insist on killing the planet and , egoistically, extend our species's territory. So, isn't it hypocritical asking whether there's a meaning in life when we simply destroy it?

Quote:
You forgot something. It was written by man, but inspired by God.
And who told you that it was inpired by God. The person who wrote it himself. But even if he/she told you that, how do you know he/she was not crazy or simply lying?
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Pokemon View Post
In my opinion, the universe doesn't have to have a creator. As it's already been said (or not), God is what humans thought up to give to their life meaning and feel they has a purpose to accomplish. But the sheer fact that life appeared out of dead matter, and that it requires very specific and rare conditions in order to be maintained is something amazing, from a scientific point of view. We don't need a reason to live, because the fact that we live is a reason itself. We have the ability to think of why we are here. Isn't that awesome? Of course it is, considering that less than 0,00001% (or maybe even more) of the total matter in the universe participated in the creation of, and now is part of, living creatures. Our goal, thus, is to preserve the miracle of life, because it may be so rare (we don't even know if there's life beyond Earth). However, we insist on killing the planet and , egoistically, extend our species's territory. So, isn't it hypocritical asking whether there's a meaning in life when we simply destroy it?


And who told you that it was inpired by God. The person who wrote it himself. But even if he/she told you that, how do you know he/she was not crazy or simply lying?
Correct me if I misunderstood what you said but since when was God dead matter?
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:16 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

I am describing why life has meaning if God doesn't exist.
And a question I just thought of: what's the meanign of life if God does exist? I mean, what's the difference. We will go to heaven/hell and live there for the eternity. And?
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

I think the univrse was made for the purpose to live life. The true meaning of life is to live it to the fulest. Once your a free man/or/woman. You can do almost anything you want. And when you die, people are gona remember you for what you did.
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