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  #31  
Old 05-13-2010, 08:42 PM
Lord Voldemort Offline
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

What would be the total point allowance for a standard team?
I think that should be sorted out sometime... since I don't think this will work as well as a system if that's not determined, as especially for in game teams, battles according to the system would be somewhat difficult to arrange.
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  #32  
Old 05-13-2010, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Voldemort View Post
What would be the total point allowance for a standard team?
I think that should be sorted out sometime... since I don't think this will work as well as a system if that's not determined, as especially for in game teams, battles according to the system would be somewhat difficult to arrange.
Well, with the numbers given in the first post, 75 seems pretty good to make sure there is at least a mix of a few UU and below in what would be an OU team. That may change though if the stealth rock modifier is used.

Part of playtesting will be to find "standard" values. I mentioned boxing weight classes before, but that's my goal. Instead of OU, UU, etc., it would be something like 75, 55, 35, etc. This is still in its infancy, so that isn't really know yet, but 75 max seems to be a good starter for an OU/UU mixed battle with the current numbers.

And Max, Gyrados is one that seems to be an outlier like Machamp, and maybe that's because he is kind of one dimensional, too. He lacks any STAB (or good STAB) for his secondary type, so loses any bonus value out of that. He's got a lacking SpA base stat and support movepool, too, which hinders the value. That could be why. Not sure if that "paper analysis" will translate to the game environment, though.

And I don't know about making new mods :(

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-13-2010 at 08:49 PM.
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  #33  
Old 05-13-2010, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Do you think it might be more to do with Dragon Dance then? Maybe the Pokemon's stat-up moves need to be centered on more? In many cases, a single stat-up move can decide the result of the game (SD Lucario, DD Gyara/Mence, etc). On the other hand, so many Pokemon can learn moves like Swords Dance, so perhaps it's more to do with how effectively the Pokemon can set up, or use the setup?

I've asked about the mod thing, so I should hopefully be finding out soon.
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  #34  
Old 05-13-2010, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Overrated pokemon:
aerodactyl
articuno
blissey
bronzong
chansey
charzard
crobat (not by much)
drifblim
empoleon
registeel
xatu (lol)
weavile

Underated pokemon:
garchomp (this should be the top)
gyarados
Heracross
Hitmonlee (under 10?)
Hitmontop (definatly not 6, thats ivysaurs level)
jolteon
machamp (this thing is gamebreaking, imo)
raikou
all rotom forms (at the same level of normal rotom?)
slobro
shaymin
suicune
vaporeon
Weezing

And these are the only problems at my first glance. Im not saying that this system is bad, but some of the values are way too high/low for certain pokes.

I could help testing, though
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Last edited by cutter kirby; 05-13-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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  #35  
Old 05-13-2010, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

What about pokemon that fit a niche? This is kinda bad imo. I mean, smogon does extensive testing for pokemon. You can't rate a pokemon to be honest; they all serve different purposes. You can't compare blissey to infernape. The way smogon does it is just fine. Based on usage. Seperates the good pokemon out from the bad pokemon and the bad pokemon from Spinda. Also this could be a flawed system, you could have 3 very strong pokemon on a team, like obscenely strong, and 3 ass pokemon that can fill a quick niche you need to (stealth rock, spikes, spinning etc) and then just use the last three pokemon to outright sweep. This kind of "tiering" would take years to perform, not 24 hours.

I mean, you already have changes and stuff done, and its been less than 24 hours since the thread has been opened? Sorry, but you can't decide how good/bad a pokemon is i that period of time.
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  #36  
Old 05-13-2010, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mankey_backsprite View Post
What about pokemon that fit a niche? This is kinda bad imo. I mean, smogon does extensive testing for pokemon. You can't rate a pokemon to be honest; they all serve different purposes. You can't compare blissey to infernape. The way smogon does it is just fine. Based on usage. Seperates the good pokemon out from the bad pokemon and the bad pokemon from Spinda. Also this could be a flawed system, you could have 3 very strong pokemon on a team, like obscenely strong, and 3 ass pokemon that can fill a quick niche you need to (stealth rock, spikes, spinning etc) and then just use the last three pokemon to outright sweep. This kind of "tiering" would take years to perform, not 24 hours.

I mean, you already have changes and stuff done, and its been less than 24 hours since the thread has been opened? Sorry, but you can't decide how good/bad a pokemon is i that period of time.
This thread has been opened for a very long time on Serebiiforums. If you read all of the first post you'd know that.

And also they do have a formula for this.
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  #37  
Old 05-13-2010, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Do you think it might be more to do with Dragon Dance then? Maybe the Pokemon's stat-up moves need to be centered on more? In many cases, a single stat-up move can decide the result of the game (SD Lucario, DD Gyara/Mence, etc). On the other hand, so many Pokemon can learn moves like Swords Dance, so perhaps it's more to do with how effectively the Pokemon can set up, or use the setup?

I've asked about the mod thing, so I should hopefully be finding out soon.
It's possible, maybe Dragon Dance isn't taken into account properly. But, back to the original theory, wouldn't a pokemon that can be a good attacker or physical attacker be more valuable due to its versatility? Gyrados seems to fall into the same predictability trap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter kirby View Post
Overrated pokemon:
aerodactyl
articuno
blissey
bronzong
chansey
charzard
crobat (not by much)
drifblim
empoleon
registeel
xatu (lol)
weavile

Underated pokemon:
garchomp (this should be the top)
gyarados
Heracross
Hitmonlee (under 10?)
Hitmontop (definatly not 6, thats ivysaurs level)
jolteon
machamp (this thing is gamebreaking, imo)
raikou
all rotom forms (at the same level of normal rotom?)
slobro
shaymin
suicune
vaporeon
Weezing

And these are the only problems at my first glance. Im not saying that this system is bad, but some of the values are way too high/low for certain pokes.

I could help testing, though
Did you see the fix I presented a few posts back? My current project is taking Stealth Rock damage into account and changed a lot of things. Like I said, I want to take as much into account as possible.

I tried to get as basic of an equation worked out as possible, but the biggest area of "gray" is abilities. Some are easily taken into account because they directly modify numbers, but others are dependent on conditions that may or may not be present. So, there is lots and lots of tweaking room in terms of how abilities are taken into account, particularly when something is unique. Take Machamp, we can easily give it an arbitrary value bonus without affecting anything else because it is the only No Guard pokemon in the game. That's the kind of stuff that needs to be tested most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mankey_backsprite View Post
What about pokemon that fit a niche? This is kinda bad imo. I mean, smogon does extensive testing for pokemon. You can't rate a pokemon to be honest; they all serve different purposes. You can't compare blissey to infernape. The way smogon does it is just fine. Based on usage. Seperates the good pokemon out from the bad pokemon and the bad pokemon from Spinda. Also this could be a flawed system, you could have 3 very strong pokemon on a team, like obscenely strong, and 3 ass pokemon that can fill a quick niche you need to (stealth rock, spikes, spinning etc) and then just use the last three pokemon to outright sweep. This kind of "tiering" would take years to perform, not 24 hours.

I mean, you already have changes and stuff done, and its been less than 24 hours since the thread has been opened? Sorry, but you can't decide how good/bad a pokemon is i that period of time.
I've been working on this for months. It wasn't until recently that there was even enough to test in some form.

I dealt with these exact criticisms when I started. I don't doubt smogon's effectiveness, but I just wanted to see more variety.

First, I firmly believe you can value a pokemon like I'm trying. Pokemon is a giant set of numbers when you break it down. I'm trying to just find a way to cohesively tie it all together in a semi-accurate form.

Second, I'm glad most people aren't of the opinion that you should give up after one try. Just because smogon has been around for a long time and has had a bunch of testing has absolutely nothing to do with a completely different system. Smogon had to start somewhere exactly how this is starting, and I'm sure it didn't work "in 24 hours." Good thing they didn't listen to such types of criticisms then or there would be nothing to go on now, right?
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  #38  
Old 05-13-2010, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I understand you are trying to do something different, but quite honestly I don't see this gaining ground or catching on. PE2K is a very small website when compared to others, you would basically have to convince the entire internet that this is better than smogon, or people are going to ignore it.
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  #39  
Old 05-14-2010, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Hey, seeing as you lower the value if a Pokemon is weak to Stealth Rock, why not raise the value to all Pokemon that resist or are immune to it? This might actually give the Fighting types a plausible boost, and it'd raise Lucario's value significantly.
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  #40  
Old 05-14-2010, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mankey_backsprite View Post
I understand you are trying to do something different, but quite honestly I don't see this gaining ground or catching on. PE2K is a very small website when compared to others, you would basically have to convince the entire internet that this is better than smogon, or people are going to ignore it.
That's ok. You're entitled to your opinion. It's very possible that this is being advertised too early, but I just wanted to get some more people on board and asked Max for help in that department.

This had to be stated many, many times, but I'm not trying to make something BETTER than Smogon. Just different. I like Smogon, it's a fine system. I'm just trying to make a game of Scrabble for people that want to play something other than checkers every now and then.

Maybe it's just me, but the argument that smogon is too good to compete with (even though I'm not trying to compete at all) is like saying no one should pursue a physics degree because Einstein was too accomplished and had way more experience than you.

I also for got to address your point about taking three "tough guys" and three "crap guys" to make a team. The funny thing is, that is EXACTLY what I'm going for here. That produces variety. You're not going to be used to seeing those other three guys and it might catch you off guard. It will make a game that isn't always "my six toughest guys are more awesome than your six toughest guys." It creates uses for the other 450 or so pokemon that are basically considered fillers by a lot of people.

Anyway, point being, if you think it's not going to work, that's ok. You can laugh while some of us muddle along. I just want to at least give it a shot and see if others are interested in helping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJello View Post
Hey, seeing as you lower the value if a Pokemon is weak to Stealth Rock, why not raise the value to all Pokemon that resist or are immune to it? This might actually give the Fighting types a plausible boost, and it'd raise Lucario's value significantly.
Anything's possible. I guess it's a matter of whether or not being resistant to Stealth Rock has as much of an effect on a Pokemon's usefulness as compared to being 2x to 4x weak. Plus I didn't think there was a Stealth Rock immunity. I think that's just for spikes and toxic spikes.

It can easily be implemented though. I want this system to be modular, where if something like you suggested comes up, you don't have to go back to square one but can just tag a modifier of some sort on somewhere to make the equation more robust.

My end goal is to have something where this only has to be done once. Tiers are constantly being shifted, but I want Pokemon values to stay the same regardless of the environment. It's just a matter of getting to the point where people find the values generally acceptable.

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-14-2010 at 12:52 AM.
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  #41  
Old 05-14-2010, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Any Pokemon with Magic Guard are immune to Stealth Rocks.
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  #42  
Old 05-14-2010, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJello View Post
Any Pokemon with Magic Guard are immune to Stealth Rocks.
Wow, brain fart there.

That might be best left to how Magic Guard is taken into account rather than a general Stealth Rock modifier. But it needs to be taken into account nevertheless.

Is Stealth Rock resistance a major factor when any of you choose pokemon like stealth rock weakness is a factor? If it is somethign that gets a lot of thought it should be accounted for.

Also, I'm going to get revised numbers with Stealth Rock taken into account soon. It needed done for a long time, just hte increased interest is forcing me to do it ;)
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  #43  
Old 05-14-2010, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Hey folks, Dragoon's thinking that we should probably get started on some of these "suspect" Pokemon while we're testing. Would you guys prefer to discuss it here on in a thread in the playtester group?

Here are a list of things that need discussed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon952
1.) Scizor: is the modification I made for STAB Technician Bullet Punch sufficient? In light of the Stealth Rock modifier, does his Value of 16 accurately reflect his value?
2.) Machamp: No Guard needs to have more oomph to boost Machamp since he seems too low.
3.) Ninjask: Speed Boost/Baton Pass: Does it need further modification or does reducing the Stealth Rock modifier to -25% rather than -50% good enough? (i.e., is 13 an accurate value for Ninjask or does that need to go higher).
4.) Gyrados: With Stealth Rock, is 11 even close to accurate? Is his lack of FLying STAB moves and a support movepool really limit his value that much or is there something specific that needs accounted for?
Another thing for us to discuss is the following: With the Stealth Rock modifier in place, what should the new standard OU/UU mixed team value be? 75 might be too high now. I was thinking around 65-70ish could be good for an initial test.
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Last edited by Max211; 05-14-2010 at 06:08 PM.
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  #44  
Old 05-14-2010, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mankey_backsprite View Post
I understand you are trying to do something different, but quite honestly I don't see this gaining ground or catching on. PE2K is a very small website when compared to others, you would basically have to convince the entire internet that this is better than smogon, or people are going to ignore it.
Well, the author did state this is on Serebii several time, which is I think the largest Pokemon fansite.
On the other hand, whether you like it or not, Smogon has the largest base of competitive battlers, by far the most active Shoddy Server, and so on... so I am pressed to see this lasting a long time without (at least) their acceptance.
Just my two cents... I'm not against this by any means.
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  #45  
Old 05-15-2010, 06:12 AM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Like Lord Voldemort said, there's already a bit of interest on the (much larger) Serebii forums, but we're just spreading the word so we can get as many people interested and contributing as possible. We're not against Smogon or trying to compete with it in any way, to quote Dragoon, we're just giving the people the option of Scrabble if they don't feel like playing Checkers every now and then.

Btw Dragoon, no luck on the co-mod idea for the social group. If there's anything you ever need me to add to it or anything, you could always just let me know. Do you want me to update the first post with those Stealth Rock modifiers?
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