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Rate My Team Get your competitive battling team rated here and get help with movesets and battling strategies.


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  #16  
Old 02-24-2010, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Well, I've seen the tier thread in this board. Why can't we take it one step further, someone make a website with all the tiering, and even have user submitted sets, just like Smogon?
  #17  
Old 02-24-2010, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Its kind of hard work. a group of people would have to complete such a task.
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  #18  
Old 02-24-2010, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

My oppion is the same as immortailises, if you dont like smogons tiering take a hike see how few people with agree with you mabye enough for a nice little comuinty where you can all agrue over whats the right way in mean time i am going to be crusing the ladder for some fun in an ou tiers thats fine as is. Susspect tests are just awsome, latias did a world of good to the metagame such as keeping some top threats in check such as dd dos/mence. I am eger to see a metagame with manphy in it that isnt susspect.
  #19  
Old 02-24-2010, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by takeru takaishi View Post
My oppion is the same as immortailises, if you dont like smogons tiering take a hike see how few people with agree with you mabye enough for a nice little comuinty where you can all agrue over whats the right way in mean time i am going to be crusing the ladder for some fun in an ou tiers thats fine as is. Susspect tests are just awsome, latias did a world of good to the metagame such as keeping some top threats in check such as dd dos/mence. I am eger to see a metagame with manphy in it that isnt susspect.
*cough*VGC's*cough*

These are rules recognized world wide, and have even found there way into quite a few Smogonites battling forte's There is thread after thread about it over there. Battling, trade threads for VGC specific pkes, CRMT's just for VGC rules. If even Smogon can conform to something that isn't of their own hair-brained ideas, and it is a battling format that is recognized world-wide, that is no "small community".

*coughLittlecoughCupcough* Jesus Christ, I should get that taken care of...

There is also a fair share of Little Cup tier battlers, in which Smogon also used to frown upon, but is finally gaining recognition there, and also isn't of their own, screwed up metagame. They even rank it on Smogon's Shoddy server now.

All I can say for both you, and Immortalis about finding battles outside of Smogons tiering is sorry, please try again with an excuse that actually is feasable.
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Last edited by Joel; 02-24-2010 at 07:01 PM.
  #20  
Old 02-25-2010, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

THIS is a perfect example of taking a video game far too seriously. Really, if you don't like the way Smogon tiers and such, join a forum that does their own tiering, or stick to VGCs and don't play in this metagame, which, whether you like it or not, DOES revolve around Smogon.
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  #21  
Old 02-25-2010, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

It's a little hard to play by non-Smogon rules if you're Shoddy-dependent, IIRC. Is that right?

So I guess it is a bit of an issue in that case.
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  #22  
Old 02-25-2010, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
It's a little hard to play by non-Smogon rules if you're Shoddy-dependent, IIRC. Is that right?

So I guess it is a bit of an issue in that case.
Perhaps. There are servers out there that use their own rules. There are even servers like Gary Oak's, if you like that sort of thing.........
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2010, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy the Great View Post
I only want to comment on this part...But if the likes of Scizor could be the reasoning for dropping Cress to UU, would Scyther pose the same threat, then sending Cress to NU? I think not. If one Poke can, by itself, send another Poke to a different tier, and the unevolved form send it to yet an even lower tier (using your reasoning here, not mine), then should that Poke that could do such this very thing (Scizor) be removed from OU? Trust me Bug Bite/Pursuit Scyther will have the same effect on Cress in UU that Scizor had on it in OU.

Well, Scyther's slightly altered typing from Scizor's is what separates them both in effectiveness against Cresselia and in tiers. The reason Scizor has the upper hand on Cresselia is that Cresselia does almost nothing to Scizor because his Steel type and decent defenses make Psychic and Ice Beam rather useless to retaliate with (and Charge Beam is, in fact, weaker than Psychic against Scizor). You can't say the same about Scyther because Scyther has a lot to lose upon switching in, as Psychic can do quite a bit of damage, and he has Ice and Electric weaknesses, as well as a glaring vulnerability to Stealth Rock if it's present. Scyther is a good solution to Cresselia in UU, but it is by no means a surefire counter, and that's what makes the difference. (You should also note that Scizor doesn't mind paralysis, but Scyther needs every last point of his Speed to perform well)

Yes, I realize the statement about Heracross you made, and Smogon not basing it upon usage, and basing it upon how it would do in accordence to the rest of the tier it would be in, but shouldn't the same thing appy to all Pokes?

Why should they base some Pokes on useage, and other Pokes on performance? There should be a standard...either usage, or performance, but not both things at once to tier Pokes.

Well, the primary factor is usage. The secondary factor is really just common sense. Heracross certainly isn't the golden boy of revenge killing anymore, but his stats and incredible physical movepool are too advantageous in UU. He'd be the UU equivalent of the OU Garchomp, and on top of that, his Reversal set will be much more viable because permanent hail/sandstorm requires quite a bit of sacrifice in UU.

I think Smogon just does what Smogon wants to do, when they want to do it. Moves like Stealth Rock, and items clauses on certain items are not what is making the metagame batter or worse, what is making it worse is the fact that Smogon doesn't even have a set rule on their own tiering guide lines. The metagame would be at it's best if they could decide on just one set way to tier the Pokes, and not keep remaking the rules just because they find an exception to their own rules they set for themselves.

I actually quite like their system. The general lack of astringency comes with a feeling that certain tier placements are never really what they seem. Clefable is a great example of a UU Pokemon that can function in OU when used properly, as is Aggron (provided he has Head Smash, of course). Besides, I don't know how you can really lay down a definite set of rules to determine tiering; it seems impossible with so many new and inventive sets and strategies being created all the time. With testing and debate on the Smogon forums, the tiering is prudent to at least the more experienced players.

This is why Smogon contiues to fail. Take TPCi, for example...The company that started this all for us. In their format for battling, they allow the useage of ALL non-event Pokes, ALL items, and ALL movesets, that are avialable to ALL the players. They don't make exceptions based on useage, or power. They leave it up t the players to decide what the players want to use. This is the way it works in the VGC's, where there are real prizes, real money involved, real gamers involved, and they aren't limiting themselves just because someone else thinks something is a bad idea.

Well...why do you care so much about how inefficient Smogon's system is?

Then their are other user-created sites, suce as RegiLeague, that makes it's own tiering systems, from it's own community of battlers. Why should we all just take for granted that Smogon is the authority, when, in fact, they are not.

Smogon isn't like the U.S. government or anything. All their decisions and contributions are the responsibility and obligation of the community. So far as I'm concerned, I appreciate that they work hard to balance online battling, as well as change the circumstances here and there to keep things interesting and flexible.
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2010, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
I actually quite like their system. The general lack of astringency comes with a feeling that certain tier placements are never really what they seem. Clefable is a great example of a UU Pokemon that can function in OU when used properly, as is Aggron (provided he has Head Smash, of course). Besides, I don't know how you can really lay down a definite set of rules to determine tiering; it seems impossible with so many new and inventive sets and strategies being created all the time. With testing and debate on the Smogon forums, the tiering is prudent to at least the more experienced players.
I heartily agree, I must say. With a metagame as dynamic as this, rules set in stone will not be able to make tiering any fairer than it already is; in fact I feel that it would make it worse. It's not as if a sudden surge in Pikachu usage will certainly bump it to BL, would it?
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  #25  
Old 02-26-2010, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Just to clarify, ALL smogons tier changes are based on usage and brokeness through testing of suspects.


Maybe this will help the less educated of you.

Uber : - Ban list for standard play.
Ou : - Standard Play. If something is found to be broken through testing it'll get moved up to Uber. If something is not used alot it'll go down to UU (see Cress and P-Z. Donphan etc)
BL : - UU Ban list.
UU : - UU Pokes. If something is found to be broken through testing it'll get moved up to BL (see Honchkrow). If something is used ALOT in UU it'll get moved to OU. (See Roserade). If something is used even less it'll go down to NU.
NU : - Pokes that are never used. Moved to UU based on brokenness though testing or high usage. (See :Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Leafeon, Cloyster etc)

Also these little "lets be rebels and go against smogon" type forums pretty much suck and are kidding themselves and they are just silly little upstart forums.

Though it is amusing that people dont even know how their tier lists work, criticize it and then are wanting to make their own tier lists without even knowing how they work in the first place? Lol hypocrisy.


Edit : @ Stupid Scyther/Scizor theorymon and cress.

Scyther is owned by SR, Scizor is not. Scyther gets annihilated by Cress Ice Beam, Scizor does not.

Cress was moved to uu because no one uses it. period.
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Records Gen 4;
OU Shoddy → #2 on ladder. (Smogon)
UU Shoddy → #1 on ladder. (Smogon)
NU Shoddy → #1 on ladder. (CAP)
Gen 4 WIFI Record → W ~92| L 8
Records Gen 5;
OU B/W → #1 on ladder. (Smogon)
LU B/W #1 Ladder (PO)
GSC OU → #3 on ladder. (PO)

Last edited by Dark_Azelf; 02-26-2010 at 06:48 PM.
  #26  
Old 02-26-2010, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf View Post

Edit : @ Stupid Scyther/Scizor theorymon and cress.

Scyther is owned by SR, Scizor is not. Scyther gets annihilated by Cress Ice Beam, Scizor does not.

Cress was moved to uu because no one uses it. period.
Ha! Cress better prey that something else set up Trick Room for it, or it won't have time to get an Ice Beam off to even aim at Scyther, and Scyther crushes it with Bug Bite / X-Scissor / Night Slash.

Edit: @ Stupid non-theorymon
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Last edited by Joel; 02-26-2010 at 07:30 PM.
  #27  
Old 02-26-2010, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy the Great View Post
Ha! Cress better prey that something else set up Trick Room for it, or it won't have time to get an Ice Beam off to even aim at Scyther, and Scyther crushes it with Bug Bite / X-Scissor / Night Slash.

Edit: @ Stupid non-theorymon
"cress used t-wave/reflect"

I.e its most common moves. ~_~
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Records Gen 4;
OU Shoddy → #2 on ladder. (Smogon)
UU Shoddy → #1 on ladder. (Smogon)
NU Shoddy → #1 on ladder. (CAP)
Gen 4 WIFI Record → W ~92| L 8
Records Gen 5;
OU B/W → #1 on ladder. (Smogon)
LU B/W #1 Ladder (PO)
GSC OU → #3 on ladder. (PO)
  #28  
Old 02-26-2010, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf View Post
"cress used t-wave/reflect"

I.e its most common moves. ~_~
No oe in their right mind would switch Scyther in on those threats, and Cress gets OHKO'd if it tries to either switch in, or go head-to-head after another Poke was KO'd.

Really...What noob are you battling against that is letting you get away with even getting off T-Wave/Reflect on a Scyther for it to even be threatened by an Ice Beam from Cress?
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2010, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy the Great View Post
No oe in their right mind would switch Scyther in on those threats, and Cress gets OHKO'd if it tries to either switch in, or go head-to-head after another Poke was KO'd.

Really...What noob are you battling against that is letting you get away with even getting off T-Wave/Reflect on a Scyther for it to even be threatened by an Ice Beam from Cress?
What ?

Cress isnt switching in on Scyther. That is the point. People were trying to make a stupid theorymon claim that Scyther will harm Cress usage. There is no reason it should be because if Scyther tries to come in it gets owned, that was my point.

And the "noobs" i have been battling (and beating) are people who are constantly on the top ten of shoddy ladder. :/
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Records Gen 4;
OU Shoddy → #2 on ladder. (Smogon)
UU Shoddy → #1 on ladder. (Smogon)
NU Shoddy → #1 on ladder. (CAP)
Gen 4 WIFI Record → W ~92| L 8
Records Gen 5;
OU B/W → #1 on ladder. (Smogon)
LU B/W #1 Ladder (PO)
GSC OU → #3 on ladder. (PO)
  #30  
Old 02-26-2010, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy the Great View Post
No oe in their right mind would switch Scyther in on those threats, and Cress gets OHKO'd if it tries to either switch in, or go head-to-head after another Poke was KO'd.

Really...What noob are you battling against that is letting you get away with even getting off T-Wave/Reflect on a Scyther for it to even be threatened by an Ice Beam from Cress?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf View Post
What ?

Cress isnt switching in on Scyther. That is the point. People were trying to make a stupid theorymon claim that Scyther will harm Cress usage. There is no reason it should be because if Scyther tries to come in it gets owned, that was my point.

And the "noobs" i have been battling (and beating) are people who are constantly on the top ten of shoddy ladder. :/
And as I said (and quoted myself on)...No one is going to switch in Scyther on Cress. Read what I typed again, please. "No one in their right mind would switch Scyther in on those threats". Whoever you are catching up on that needs to study what other Pokes can do a little more...top ten on the shoddy ladder, or not.
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