Member List
Calendar
F.A.Q.
Search
Log Out
Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000  
 

Go Back   Pokemon Forum - Pokemon Elite 2000 » Pokemon Main Boards » Pokemon: Interactive Center » Competitive Battling » Rate My Team

Rate My Team Get your competitive battling team rated here and get help with movesets and battling strategies.


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-20-2010, 01:47 AM
SwitchBlade Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 174
Default Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Creating a "Better" Metagame?



The Current State of the Metagame:

The structuring of standard tiers is increasingly absorbed into Smogon's suspect testing procedure, with the tiers being primarily focused around usage (exceptions to which are the Uber & Border Line tiers). This methodology is aimed at creating a metagame free from broken factors (See the above tiers & standard clauses etc.), but neglects to consider the general "well-being" of the metagame.

This has resulted in a metagame which is gradually centralising, the current state of affairs is a prime example. Dragons and Steels monopolise the current standard Over Used tier (many successful teams have been built around the 3 Steel, 3 Dragon ideology).


What Would You Change?

So the question I ask is, given the choice, what would you do to improve upon the current metagame? What clauses would you put into effect? What Pokemon would you remove/add from standard play?


My Viewpoint:

My opinion is that several changes need to be made:

1 - External Contol of Centralisation
The metagame is centralised around a certain group of Pokemon (e.g. Salamence, Scizor), and in order to improve variation within team design and strategy, the usage of these top "threats" must be controlled externally. A prime example would be the Japanese metagame where there is a limit or "cap" set on the number of pseudo-legendaries and normal legendaries usable within a team.

2 - The Stealth Rock Clause?
Stealth Rock is one of the most versatile moves on the game, a vast majority of Pokemon are able to use it, and almost every successful team utilises it in some way. It destroys usage of many potentially viable Pokemon (Moltres being a prime example), and often times results in the same structured approach of starting moves (Taunt, Stealth Rock etc.) and movesets (Anti-Lead, Suicide Lead etc.).

It is therefore my opinion (please note), that a Stealth Rock clause should be implemented in order to rejuvinate the metagame. This would be dependent on a restructuring of the tiers themselves and a Focus Sash clause (e.g. one sash per team)

3 - The Elimination of Usage Based Tiering
I may be on my own, but I find the current state of UU frustrating. The tier is constantly evolving because of usage statistics, Magikarp could be promoted to OU (based on usage) and would therefore be inelligible for UU.

The point i'm making is that I feel the metagame would benefit from a tiering system based around a common sense approach (e.g. Magikarp would never be banned because his usage increased).

4 - Separate Wifi and Shoddy Tier Lists
Separate tiers for Shoddy and Wifi. They are not the same, the presence of the Rotom forms alone (ranked #3 in usage last time I checked), should be enough for separate tiering regulations. The Shoddy metagame also advances much faster (maybe due to the sheer number of battles played on the simulator) than Wifi.


The ideas I put forward are based around creating a metagame where innovation can take centerplace, but there will undoubtably be flaws (as there would be with any system). I have given a brief description of my viewpoints only, I will add in statistical data etc. if there is a demand for such information. Please feel free to discuss any of the ideas I have put forward!


Discussing the Topic:

I understand that there will be many players who will oppose many of the principles and thoughts put forward, and I welcome discussion on any topic in this thread, however please do not let this resort into a flame war etc.


Tl;dr Summary

What methods would you implement to improve upon the current metagame?
__________________
  #2  
Old 01-20-2010, 02:00 AM
Broderick's Avatar
Broderick Offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Your local Mental Asylum.
Posts: 1,769
Send a message via AIM to Broderick Send a message via MSN to Broderick
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

It's a nice thought, but people need to quit complaining about the metagame, and just deal with it. You can't change it. And just to address a point you brought up, Smogon's tiering system isn't based solely around usage. If every single person used Magikarp for whatever reason, it wouldn't automatically be OU. They have brains... That's what's been keeping Heracross out of UU, because the suspect voters there know that Heracross would absolutely devastate UU. The only reason Cresselia is there is because it's Scizor bait in OU, and in UU all it can pull off somewhat successfully is Calm Mind and Toxic stalling for the most part-- it just sucks. It's also in UU due to the large amount of Dark types (Absol, Drapion, albeit Honchkrow who's now BL). However, it may very well go up to BL soon.
And the Stealth Rock clause; absense of entry hazards would absolutely destroy any type of control over pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rocks (Salamene would go uber as a result, Gyarados would also have a party), as well as breaking down many types of playing styles.
Addressing your "wi-fi vs. shoddy tiering" argument, there is no effective way to do this. Shoddy is monitored by a server. Wi-fi cannot be. You would have to have everybody wi-fi battling at every moment after they are done, go to smogon, and report what pokemon they used, as well as their opponent. That sounds a bit difficult, yes?
Anyway, a well organized discussion here, but I think you should have thought this through a bit more; there's simply no way to effectively change the metagame. It goes with the trends, and constantly changes. Its one of the things that keeps players on their toes.
__________________
  #3  
Old 01-20-2010, 02:22 AM
SwitchBlade Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 174
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
It's a nice thought, but people need to quit complaining about the metagame, and just deal with it. You can't change it. And just to address a point you brought up, Smogon's tiering system isn't based solely around usage. If every single person used Magikarp for whatever reason, it wouldn't automatically be OU. They have brains... That's what's been keeping Heracross out of UU, because the suspect voters there know that Heracross would absolutely devastate UU. The only reason Cresselia is there is because it's Scizor bait in OU, and in UU all it can pull off somewhat successfully is Calm Mind and Toxic stalling for the most part-- it just sucks. It's also in UU due to the large amount of Dark types (Absol, Drapion, albeit Honchkrow who's now BL). However, it may very well go up to BL soon.
And the Stealth Rock clause; absense of entry hazards would absolutely destroy any type of control over pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rocks (Salamene would go uber as a result, Gyarados would also have a party), as well as breaking down many types of playing styles.
Addressing your "wi-fi vs. shoddy tiering" argument, there is no effective way to do this. Shoddy is monitored by a server. Wi-fi cannot be. You would have to have everybody wi-fi battling at every moment after they are done, go to smogon, and report what pokemon they used, as well as their opponent. That sounds a bit difficult, yes?
Anyway, a well organized discussion here, but I think you should have thought this through a bit more; there's simply no way to effectively change the metagame. It goes with the trends, and constantly changes. Its one of the things that keeps players on their toes.
Thanks for responding, I personally don't mind the current metagame, I just think it could be improved upon. Smogon's tiering is pretty much solely dependent on usage, you can check X-Acts thread on Smogon if you don't believe me (Heracross usage rose last month, which is why he still remains in OU, not because of theorymon) I can link you if you want?

The removal of Stealth Rock would change the way threats such as Salamence and Gyarados are played, however they heavily rely on Stealth Rock themselves to sweep, sashes etc. would change the overall nature of the game. I admit it is impossible to theorymon all of these changes, however I do feel it could have a rejuvinating effect on the metagame if implemented in the correct way.

As regarding the Wifi and Shoddy tiering, as it would not be based around usage I think that theoretically it would be possible, though yes, it would require a large amount of work to be successful.

As I said in the OP, i'm just giving a brief overview but i'm more than willing to discuss the finer details if required?

EDIT: The separate tier lists between Wifi and Shoddy would not necessitate the need for "logging" battles, as there would be a voting system put in place for tier placement (be it an expert panel or the community at large), usage would not play a role in tiering.
__________________

Last edited by SwitchBlade; 01-20-2010 at 02:36 AM.
  #4  
Old 01-22-2010, 12:18 AM
SuperErinMan's Avatar
SuperErinMan Offline
Master Trainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: <witty dialogue>
Posts: 352
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

My position is that some of your concepts are valid opinions, but as stated by Broderick, arent the best options.

You see, by allowing the current tiers to meld and reform solely on usage, we find that the individual tiers soon become heavily unbalanced and constantly chainging. Let's say that, for some reason or other, magenzone drops in usage so heavily it falls into the likes of NU, among dustox, dewgong, octillery and the like. It becomes so overpowered that cradily, muk and Mr. Mime usage spikes. this causes cradily, muk and mime to be thrown into UU, with Ludicolo, Mesprit and Raikou. let's follow muk's path. Mesprit is the most valid Muk counter, so its usage spikes, throwing it into OU. however, if we started with the current OU tier, Mesprit is already established to be too weak to do much harm, so in the bottom of OU it stays. But, since mesprit is in OU, muk can attempt to dominate UU, to no avail due to the likes of mismagius and cresselia, the better half of UU. so muk tossed back down to NU. we move back to mesprit, who is already gathering dust in OU, so it is brought back down to UU. assuming the same trends are followed with all pokemon, this is our starting and ending stats:

muk: NU-UU-NU
mesprit: UU-OU-UU


although i have no statistics for definitive proof, this is a very likely result from allowing tiers to be made solely on usage: a bunch of useless changes.

moving on to stealth rock:
stealth rock is a move. and not a rigged move, such as fissure, sheer cold and the like. the reason you claim why it shouldnt be banned is because some pokemon arent getting a chance to shine? that's exactly why stealth rock was made, dear SwitchBlade- to make new pokemon shine.

would the current metagame even consider using azelf to start off a team had it not learned stealth rock? perhaps, although gyarados and gengar would have the advantage through sheer power. moltres was your specific example of an underappreciated pokemon thanks to stealth rock. however it wasnt just stealth rock that discouraged it use- its weaknesses to electric, rock, water and limited movepool have kept it in BL for three generations, and adding another entry hazard akin to spikes was the final nail in the coffin to put it in UU. SR is a way to finally get those flying types and levitators who are immune to spikes to take some damage.

your clause about focus sash is interesting. it is an item, but if we ban sash, whats not to ban choice band, scarf, specs, leftovers, lum berries or even expert belt? items do not make a metagame alone- its who uses them and how.

an interesting debate, although i dont necessarily agree with your points.
__________________

Platinum FC: 2750 9224 1685
*PA-SHWING*
-SuperErinMan

Im giving up on pe2k. moving on to smogon. maybe back later, not likely.
  #5  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:49 AM
SwitchBlade Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 174
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperErinMan View Post
My position is that some of your concepts are valid opinions, but as stated by Broderick, arent the best options.

You see, by allowing the current tiers to meld and reform solely on usage, we find that the individual tiers soon become heavily unbalanced and constantly chainging. Let's say that, for some reason or other, magenzone drops in usage so heavily it falls into the likes of NU, among dustox, dewgong, octillery and the like. It becomes so overpowered that cradily, muk and Mr. Mime usage spikes. this causes cradily, muk and mime to be thrown into UU, with Ludicolo, Mesprit and Raikou. let's follow muk's path. Mesprit is the most valid Muk counter, so its usage spikes, throwing it into OU. however, if we started with the current OU tier, Mesprit is already established to be too weak to do much harm, so in the bottom of OU it stays. But, since mesprit is in OU, muk can attempt to dominate UU, to no avail due to the likes of mismagius and cresselia, the better half of UU. so muk tossed back down to NU. we move back to mesprit, who is already gathering dust in OU, so it is brought back down to UU. assuming the same trends are followed with all pokemon, this is our starting and ending stats:

muk: NU-UU-NU
mesprit: UU-OU-UU


although i have no statistics for definitive proof, this is a very likely result from allowing tiers to be made solely on usage: a bunch of useless changes.

moving on to stealth rock:
stealth rock is a move. and not a rigged move, such as fissure, sheer cold and the like. the reason you claim why it shouldnt be banned is because some pokemon arent getting a chance to shine? that's exactly why stealth rock was made, dear SwitchBlade- to make new pokemon shine.

would the current metagame even consider using azelf to start off a team had it not learned stealth rock? perhaps, although gyarados and gengar would have the advantage through sheer power. moltres was your specific example of an underappreciated pokemon thanks to stealth rock. however it wasnt just stealth rock that discouraged it use- its weaknesses to electric, rock, water and limited movepool have kept it in BL for three generations, and adding another entry hazard akin to spikes was the final nail in the coffin to put it in UU. SR is a way to finally get those flying types and levitators who are immune to spikes to take some damage.

your clause about focus sash is interesting. it is an item, but if we ban sash, whats not to ban choice band, scarf, specs, leftovers, lum berries or even expert belt? items do not make a metagame alone- its who uses them and how.

an interesting debate, although i dont necessarily agree with your points.
I'm not quite sure what you're implying by your first point, I wasn't suggesting melding the tiers together. As for you're opinion on usage statistics, I agree that should not be the sole reason for tier changes and that is the viewpoint I put forth in the OP. The suggestion of a common sense approach was based around the current evolution of the relationship between OU and UU, and how the current UU suspect testing process isn't necessarily the best way to go about things.

Moving on, I am in no way stating stealth rock is broken, far from it. I'm asking the question, would the metagame be a better place without it? This can be theorised to a degree, however to completely disregard it because it isn't broken like fissure or sheer cold (which themselves are being reviewed by smogon), is in my opinion a regressive way of thinking. Each to his own however.

The issue of a Stealth Rock clause is something I'm not entirely certain about myself but in the interests of creating a "better" metagame it is an idea all the same. The ideology was meant more as a question, than a "We should ban Stealth Rock because it is brokenz!!11!1", but I take on board your points and critcsims nonetheless.

Azelf would still find his way on to many teams, he is a versatile sweeper with a decent move pool. Furthermore Moltres would almost definitely relocate to the overused tier, but that was just an example.

Just to clarify, Focus Sash Clause = 1 Focus Sash per team, and is meant to disuade unoriginal teams abusing the lack of Stealth Rock by using multiple sashes. In much the same way that the sleep clause was implemented, to stop people abusing Pokemon such as Sub, Spore Breloom. I'm against the complete banning of an item, and yes items do not themselves define a metagme.

Thanks for commenting I always welcome a different viewpoint to my own, however perhaps you should have read the OP more carefully.
__________________
  #6  
Old 01-23-2010, 08:47 AM
Immortalis's Avatar
Immortalis Offline
Amateur Trainer
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 76
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Altough it doesn't seem like it, sticking to smogon's metagame is really the best option. I wholeheartedly agree with them in most metagame things concerning OU, such as the current suspects (Latias, Manaphy and very soon Salamence). Stealth Rock is an entry hazard like everything else, if you don't like it, then don't use Pokemon weak to it. Really, it's not that bad
__________________
Love,

Immortalis

20th of August - reached No. 1 on OU leaderboards.
  #7  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:26 PM
SwitchBlade Offline
Experienced Trainer
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 174
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortalis View Post
Altough it doesn't seem like it, sticking to smogon's metagame is really the best option. I wholeheartedly agree with them in most metagame things concerning OU, such as the current suspects (Latias, Manaphy and very soon Salamence). Stealth Rock is an entry hazard like everything else, if you don't like it, then don't use Pokemon weak to it. Really, it's not that bad
Fair enough, I agree with the OU suspect process for the most part. Latias is definitely fine in OU, though i'm still relatively undecided about manaphy. Salamence deserves a test, but in my opinion he won't be going Uber any time soon.

As for stealth rock, it was mainly due to the prevalance of Rotom in standard that I suggested a ban. It would obviously need to be tested, and I repeat I do not think the move is broken, i'm just interested in how the metagame would pan out without it.
__________________
  #8  
Old 02-23-2010, 05:45 AM
Starkipraggy's Avatar
Starkipraggy Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gundam Porygon ZZ
Posts: 3,151
Send a message via MSN to Starkipraggy
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

I must say a development of an SR-less metagame would be interesting. Will Moltres and Charizard become powerful forces (just examples) without Stealth Rock? What about Pokemon like Yanmega and Ninjask? How would it affect the current metagame? Imagine, just for a second, that Blissey no longer loses 12.5% on switch-in. You can no longer wear Blissey down into KO range with repeated switching, or any other wall for that matter. How would this affect the metagame? What about Pokemon like Mence? SR hurts it by cutting its HP, but at the same time allow it to score important KOs. Stealth Rock resistance wouldn't be a critical factor in teambuilding as well.
__________________


Mons are here though

私はグレダーです--I am a Grader
  #9  
Old 02-23-2010, 06:25 AM
-Holland-'s Avatar
-Holland- Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 4 8 15 16 23 42
Posts: 2,494
Send a message via AIM to -Holland- Send a message via MSN to -Holland- Send a message via Yahoo to -Holland-
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
I must say a development of an SR-less metagame would be interesting. Will Moltres and Charizard become powerful forces (just examples) without Stealth Rock? What about Pokemon like Yanmega and Ninjask? How would it affect the current metagame? Imagine, just for a second, that Blissey no longer loses 12.5% on switch-in. You can no longer wear Blissey down into KO range with repeated switching, or any other wall for that matter. How would this affect the metagame? What about Pokemon like Mence? SR hurts it by cutting its HP, but at the same time allow it to score important KOs. Stealth Rock resistance wouldn't be a critical factor in teambuilding as well.
I don't agree that Stealth Rock should be taken out of the game, though. Perhaps its power should be weakened and it can become a stacked entry hazard in later generations, but for the time being, its boons and hindrances seem to balance out fairly well, as Pokemon like Salamence, as you mentioned, are handicapped by it, yet can use its damage output to their advantage.

Perhaps, without Stealth Rock, once-viable Pokemon with 4x Rock weaknesses will become more prevalent, but there are lots of ways to deal with these Pokemon without Stealth Rock, such as using Taunt on Ninjask and sponging Yanmega's attacks with Blissey (and Reversal won't work because more than 90% of the time in OU battles, a sandstorm is going). Whether Stealth Rock is present or not doesn't change the fact that the D/P metagame is teaming with so many formidable offensive threats that it's impossible to counter them all. When you consider that, Stealth Rock just makes battles go by that much quicker for offensive teams.

And, of course, stalling with spike stacking (both kinds, often at the same time) is always going to be omnipresent for all teams that aren't prepared to slowly pick apart the stalling process (or at least counter it with the proper offense). Though she can cure both with Aromatherapy and by switching out, Blissey really cannot avoid Toxic Spikes in the long run, and a good stall team destroys her pretty easily.

Come to think of it, taking out Stealth Rock might encourage greater use of more defensive Pokemon, and thus, more stall teams. And stall teams are the worst, because they have the patience to meticulously shut your team down.
__________________
4 8 15 16 23 42

My Battle Log
  #10  
Old 02-23-2010, 06:44 AM
scubasteveE's Avatar
scubasteveE Offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,558
Send a message via AIM to scubasteveE Send a message via MSN to scubasteveE
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Holland- View Post
I don't agree that Stealth Rock should be taken out of the game, though. Perhaps its power should be weakened and it can become a stacked entry hazard in later generations, but for the time being, its boons and hindrances seem to balance out fairly well, as Pokemon like Salamence, as you mentioned, are handicapped by it, yet can use its damage output to their advantage.

Perhaps, without Stealth Rock, once-viable Pokemon with 4x Rock weaknesses will become more prevalent, but there are lots of ways to deal with these Pokemon without Stealth Rock, such as using Taunt on Ninjask and sponging Yanmega's attacks with Blissey (and Reversal won't work because more than 90% of the time in OU battles, a sandstorm is going). Whether Stealth Rock is present or not doesn't change the fact that the D/P metagame is teaming with so many formidable offensive threats that it's impossible to counter them all. When you consider that, Stealth Rock just makes battles go by that much quicker for offensive teams.

And, of course, stalling with spike stacking (both kinds, often at the same time) is always going to be omnipresent for all teams that aren't prepared to slowly pick apart the stalling process (or at least counter it with the proper offense). Though she can cure both with Aromatherapy and by switching out, Blissey really cannot avoid Toxic Spikes in the long run, and a good stall team destroys her pretty easily.

Come to think of it, taking out Stealth Rock might encourage greater use of more defensive Pokemon, and thus, more stall teams. And stall teams are the worst, because they have the patience to meticulously shut your team down.
Something about that bold statement just makes me smile

Well with the 5th generation closing in on us, it's kind of a mute point, but I always wondered what this metagame would be like without SR.
__________________
Everybody loves a comback! I'm still kicking and still diving.

† I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and am proud of it! Copy and paste this if you are too.†
  #11  
Old 02-23-2010, 10:54 AM
Starkipraggy's Avatar
Starkipraggy Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gundam Porygon ZZ
Posts: 3,151
Send a message via MSN to Starkipraggy
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

We could just have a server where SR is banned and see what happens to the metagame in there, if anyone could host one. The SR and SR-less metagame can co-exist, on different servers.

Stall actually also needs Stealth Rock, or Flying-types and Levitators would take forever to bring down.
__________________


Mons are here though

私はグレダーです--I am a Grader
  #12  
Old 02-24-2010, 04:25 AM
-Holland-'s Avatar
-Holland- Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 4 8 15 16 23 42
Posts: 2,494
Send a message via AIM to -Holland- Send a message via MSN to -Holland- Send a message via Yahoo to -Holland-
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkipraggy View Post
We could just have a server where SR is banned and see what happens to the metagame in there, if anyone could host one. The SR and SR-less metagame can co-exist, on different servers.

Stall actually also needs Stealth Rock, or Flying-types and Levitators would take forever to bring down.
What can't we do to those Pokemon in D/P that we couldn't do 5 years ago? The standards of our metagame have remained relatively consistent, and yet new and unique (if not gimmicky) movesets are invented all the time. Take Stealth Rock out and stall teams will adapt very easily, and very quickly, because the general gist of stalling hasn't really changed much between this generation and the last. I don't know how it will happen, but I can assure you that it will.
__________________
4 8 15 16 23 42

My Battle Log
  #13  
Old 02-24-2010, 11:55 AM
Starkipraggy's Avatar
Starkipraggy Offline
Elite Trainer (Level 3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gundam Porygon ZZ
Posts: 3,151
Send a message via MSN to Starkipraggy
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Holland- View Post
What can't we do to those Pokemon in D/P that we couldn't do 5 years ago? The standards of our metagame have remained relatively consistent, and yet new and unique (if not gimmicky) movesets are invented all the time. Take Stealth Rock out and stall teams will adapt very easily, and very quickly, because the general gist of stalling hasn't really changed much between this generation and the last. I don't know how it will happen, but I can assure you that it will.
I just realised there are Lost references in your Location and sig. @_@

Admittedly those Pokemon can be taken out eventually, but the inability to punish them for switching in was quite a gripe for me in the 3rd gen days. Considering how said fliers are now much more powerful (the usual Mence and Gyara as examples), it would be easier to break through stall. However the lack of Stealth Rock stops them from taking out some walls, and stall may succeed in the end.

The more I talk, the more I confuse myself, and the more I want to see a seperate SR-less metagame develop. 8D
__________________


Mons are here though

私はグレダーです--I am a Grader
  #14  
Old 02-24-2010, 03:32 PM
Joel's Avatar
Joel Offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,843
Send a message via Yahoo to Joel
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
The only reason Cresselia is there is because it's Scizor bait in OU, and in UU all it can pull off somewhat successfully is Calm Mind and Toxic stalling for the most part-- it just sucks. It's also in UU due to the large amount of Dark types (Absol, Drapion, albeit Honchkrow who's now BL). However, it may very well go up to BL soon.
I only want to comment on this part...But if the likes of Scizor could be the reasoning for dropping Cress to UU, would Scyther pose the same threat, then sending Cress to NU? I think not. If one Poke can, by itself, send another Poke to a different tier, and the unevolved form send it to yet an even lower tier (using your reasoning here, not mine), then should that Poke that could do such this very thing (Scizor) be removed from OU? Trust me Bug Bite/Pursuit Scyther will have the same effect on Cress in UU that Scizor had on it in OU.

Yes, I realize the statement about Heracross you made, and Smogon not basing it upon usage, and basing it upon how it would do in accordence to the rest of the tier it would be in, but shouldn't the same thing appy to all Pokes?

Why should they base some Pokes on useage, and other Pokes on performance? There should be a standard...either usage, or performance, but not both things at once to tier Pokes.

I think Smogon just does what Smogon wants to do, when they want to do it. Moves like Stealth Rock, and items clauses on certain items are not what is making the metagame batter or worse, what is making it worse is the fact that Smogon doesn't even have a set rule on their own tiering guide lines. The metagame would be at it's best if they could decide on just one set way to tier the Pokes, and not keep remaking the rules just because they find an exception to their own rules they set for themselves.

This is why Smogon contiues to fail. Take TPCi, for example...The company that started this all for us. In their format for battling, they allow the useage of ALL non-event Pokes, ALL items, and ALL movesets, that are avialable to ALL the players. They don't make exceptions based on useage, or power. They leave it up t the players to decide what the players want to use. This is the way it works in the VGC's, where there are real prizes, real money involved, real gamers involved, and they aren't limiting themselves just because someone else thinks something is a bad idea.

Then their are other user-created sites, suce as RegiLeague, that makes it's own tiering systems, from it's own community of battlers. Why should we all just take for granted that Smogon is the authority, when, in fact, they are not.
__________________

I also occasionally do wifi battles.

Last edited by Joel; 02-24-2010 at 03:55 PM.
  #15  
Old 02-24-2010, 04:51 PM
megamonk4's Avatar
megamonk4 Offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,925
Default Re: Creating a "Better" Metagame?

YES! YES! where has this been?! I can't stand the bull from smogon's tiering... I always had an idea that something better can be made from tiering.
__________________
LMSSI Clan Shop
Diamond FC: 1763 3039 2213[Kanto/Johto Trade] Heart Gold FC: 3266 8515 4365[N/A] Soul Silver FC: 5285 7922 5054[Hoenn/Sinnoh Trade/Battle]
Platinum FC: 3953 9424 1944[OU Battle] PBR FC: 2536-2876-2971 Pokemon White JPN FC: 3224 1436 6447

Pokemon Black/White Walkthrough
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Style Design: AlienSector.com