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  #16  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Sequentio View Post
Well, it is very much possible for a carcass to be preserved in near pristine conditions be it by tomb, tar or ice. However, the whole point of the Animal Planet special was to say, "WHAT IF WE FOUND A DRAGON BODY?" so obviously, it's fake. (That, and if you watched the aftershow).
This is the truth. It was a docudrama, not an actual documentary of something that happened but an interesting way to present scientific theory, namely the concept of a reptilian creature that could fly and breathe fire called a dragon actually existing. Which, by the way, I believe.

Regardless of the fact that it wasn't real, the intro was completely correct. The odds that all of those cultures sharing legends and stories about dragons that are all so very similar are simply absurd. Therefore, a giant flying reptile must have existed at one point, and it must have had something vaguely resembling the ability to breath fire. All the legends and magic and stuff came from human imagination to make them seem more interesting (think talking wolves) but the common elements indicate that something like a dragon must have existed in history.
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  #17  
Old 10-07-2009, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
This is the truth. It was a docudrama, not an actual documentary of something that happened but an interesting way to present scientific theory, namely the concept of a reptilian creature that could fly and breathe fire called a dragon actually existing. Which, by the way, I believe.

Regardless of the fact that it wasn't real, the intro was completely correct. The odds that all of those cultures sharing legends and stories about dragons that are all so very similar are simply absurd. Therefore, a giant flying reptile must have existed at one point, and it must have had something vaguely resembling the ability to breath fire. All the legends and magic and stuff came from human imagination to make them seem more interesting (think talking wolves) but the common elements indicate that something like a dragon must have existed in history.
All these cultures...?

The only two civilizations I see that have things called "dragons" are European and Eastern civilizations. And the two civilizations developed two completely different ideas of dragons. One had winged lizards, the other flying snakes with legs that couldn't breathe fire. Moreover, there is nothing about the profusion of the Western style dragon that can't be explained through cultural diffusion. Early biblical ideas of dragons spread to the Persians, the Persians spread it to Greece, the Greeks spread it to the rest of Europe. The disparity between the Western-style dragon, which only cultures that were in contact with each other at one point or another held, with the Eastern versions of dragons is, in my view, only proof for the non-existence of dragons.
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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What kind of thread is this? :| Dragons have never existed. If they ever do, they will be a product of human engineering.
Well I guess its time to start engineering some of these flying suckers, now isn't it<.<.
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  #19  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
All these cultures...?

The only two civilizations I see that have things called "dragons" are European and Eastern civilizations. And the two civilizations developed two completely different ideas of dragons. One had winged lizards, the other flying snakes with legs that couldn't breathe fire. Moreover, there is nothing about the profusion of the Western style dragon that can't be explained through cultural diffusion. Early biblical ideas of dragons spread to the Persians, the Persians spread it to Greece, the Greeks spread it to the rest of Europe. The disparity between the Western-style dragon, which only cultures that were in contact with each other at one point or another held, with the Eastern versions of dragons is, in my view, only proof for the non-existence of dragons.
Lus, you want to be debbie downer go right ahead. Proof or no proof, I will hold onto my belief that dragons existed, just like I hold on to my belief in sea monsters, Bigfoot, and vampires (that don't freaking sparkle). And in case it isn't clear, that was not a sarcastic statement.
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  #20  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:34 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Lus, you want to be debbie downer go right ahead. Proof or no proof, I will hold onto my belief that dragons existed, just like I hold on to my belief in sea monsters, Bigfoot, and vampires (that don't freaking sparkle). And in case it isn't clear, that was not a sarcastic statement.
Lol'd at that xD

I also think dragons were real at one time, long, long ago. Also think aliens, loch ness monster, and perhaps bigfoot (my teacher) are real somewhere out there.
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  #21  
Old 10-07-2009, 03:50 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
All these cultures...?

The only two civilizations I see that have things called "dragons" are European and Eastern civilizations. That's way more than half the populated globe, though. And the two civilizations developed two completely different ideas of dragons. One had winged lizards, the other flying snakes with legs that couldn't breathe fire. But they were flying reptiles. I don't believe that anything ever existed that could really breath fire - that may just be an added element to compound the intimidation a dragon represents -, but a flying lizard is certainly believable. Assuming one agrees with the theory of evolution, humans came about roughly 200,000 years ago; we have no idea if any animals really evolved since them, because recorded history is only 5,000 years old. Moreover, there is nothing about the profusion of the Western style dragon that can't be explained through cultural diffusion. Early biblical ideas of dragons spread to the Persians, the Persians spread it to Greece, the Greeks spread it to the rest of Europe. The disparity between the Western-style dragon, which only cultures that were in contact with each other at one point or another held, with the Eastern versions of dragons is, in my view, only proof for the non-existence of dragons. I really don't think anyone knows for sure how the ideas spread. After all, the Church controlled pretty much the entire ideology of all Europeans up until the early 16th century. Though the peasants overthrew the Church by translating the Bible and conveying its true meaning, we have no idea what clergymen were doing prior to that time for them to "justify" making everyone subservient to them through indulgences. They could have very well changed our perception of history because they wanted to make the claim that sex was a reasonable fee for salvation.
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2009, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

It's not unlikely that the idea of the dragon can come from the East, considering the fact that the silk road existed long before Marco Polo rediscovered it (in geographic terms, way less than 1/2 the globe). The problem with Eastern dragons of course is the simple fact that they defy physics: they fly without having the mechanism to fly, without wings. I have yet to see a single animal of any sort that can fly in some miraculous way outside of using some form of wing-like device.

I agree the sentiment that the addition of fire-breathing would be to make it look more impressive.
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  #23  
Old 10-07-2009, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
All these cultures...?

The only two civilizations I see that have things called "dragons" are European and Eastern civilizations. And the two civilizations developed two completely different ideas of dragons. One had winged lizards, the other flying snakes with legs that couldn't breathe fire. Moreover, there is nothing about the profusion of the Western style dragon that can't be explained through cultural diffusion. Early biblical ideas of dragons spread to the Persians, the Persians spread it to Greece, the Greeks spread it to the rest of Europe. The disparity between the Western-style dragon, which only cultures that were in contact with each other at one point or another held, with the Eastern versions of dragons is, in my view, only proof for the non-existence of dragons.
Having two types of those reptiles in two different places would actually make sense.


Just like Pokemon, I think these beings actually exist somewhere in this universe that's not on this planet.
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  #24  
Old 10-08-2009, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

Who in their right mind would ask a question like this? No they aren't real.
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  #25  
Old 10-08-2009, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

I've been on forums where the majority of people believed Dragons exist and/or they were part Dragon.

So, with great pride, I would like to shout from the high heavens: No!
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  #26  
Old 10-08-2009, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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and/or they were part Dragon.
... People like that should not be allowed to have access to the internet. >__>
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  #27  
Old 10-08-2009, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Lus, you want to be debbie downer go right ahead. Proof or no proof, I will hold onto my belief that dragons existed, just like I hold on to my belief in sea monsters, Bigfoot, and vampires (that don't freaking sparkle). And in case it isn't clear, that was not a sarcastic statement.
*patpat* By the way, did anyone ever tell you Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy aren't real...?

Quote:
I really don't think anyone knows for sure how the ideas spread. After all, the Church controlled pretty much the entire ideology of all Europeans up until the early 16th century. Though the peasants overthrew the Church by translating the Bible and conveying its true meaning, we have no idea what clergymen were doing prior to that time for them to "justify" making everyone subservient to them through indulgences. They could have very well changed our perception of history because they wanted to make the claim that sex was a reasonable fee for salvation.
If you trace the first references to dragons throughout ancient history, one can make a reasonable hypothesis about the course of it. Nonetheless, all the ancient civilizations that had dragons or dragon-like creatures were in contact with each other, which makes the argument that because so many ancient cultures have had dragons in myth, dragons must've existed, irrelevant, because there is a clear possibility of those cultures not coming upon the ideas of dragons individually.

Quote:
But they were flying reptiles. I don't believe that anything ever existed that could really breath fire - that may just be an added element to compound the intimidation a dragon represents -, but a flying lizard is certainly believable. Assuming one agrees with the theory of evolution, humans came about roughly 200,000 years ago; we have no idea if any animals really evolved since them, because recorded history is only 5,000 years old.
Sure, flying lizards did exist. In the days of the dinosaurs. But 1. An Eastern dragon, which completely lacks wings, could not possibly fly by any means asides from magic, and 2. A Western dragon's body is so massive and heavy compared to its wingspan that it could not possibly fly either. It's merely a natural extension of myth to assign flying capabilities to mythical creatures: the Greek said their god Hermes could fly, does that mean that there were humans that could fly by wearing winged sandals at one point?
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2009, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
*patpat* By the way, did anyone ever tell you Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy aren't real...?

>_>

If you trace the first references to dragons throughout ancient history, one can make a reasonable hypothesis about the course of it. Nonetheless, all the ancient civilizations that had dragons or dragon-like creatures were in contact with each other, which makes the argument that because so many ancient cultures have had dragons in myth, dragons must've existed, irrelevant, because there is a clear possibility of those cultures not coming upon the ideas of dragons individually.

Yes, it's true they were all in contact with each other at one point or another, but you should understand that ancient civilizations were abrasive and conceited in their ideologies. Before the early 17th century, civilizations would hold firm to whatever uniform religion they practiced, and though they did not pick fights with every other nation, their actions were guided by their belief in their religion; those who openly opposed were obliterated, their ideas and religion burned to as evanescent a wisp as possible. Though I understand that we did derive Arabian arithmetic from the Crusades, that was merely a practical advancement. Dragons were, at best, a manifestation of folklore (as we know for sure they didn't exist back then), and so there was no reason for alienated civilizations to adopt such ideas that weren't practical for their own advancement. Thus, I still believe that the varying prototypes of the lizard-like appearance came up in more societies than just those in the East.

Sure, flying lizards did exist. In the days of the dinosaurs. But 1. An Eastern dragon, which completely lacks wings, could not possibly fly by any means asides from magic, and 2. A Western dragon's body is so massive and heavy compared to its wingspan that it could not possibly fly either. It's merely a natural extension of myth to assign flying capabilities to mythical creatures: the Greek said their god Hermes could fly, does that mean that there were humans that could fly by wearing winged sandals at one point?

I never quite believed that there was a possibility that actual dragons existed, but at least that there were some reptiles - winged or not - that were exaggerated and indeed incorporated into mythology for the sake of creating a myth. Think of this: between dragons and humans, dragons are the intellectuals, and humans are the primal animals; dragons look at the story of Beowulf (it would be altered...say, the dragon talks and Beowulf doesn't...you get the picture) and see a human exaggerated in all of his qualities, including an exaggeration of his self-consciousness via his egotism. Yes, Beowulf would come across as mythical to them, but even as he was purely fictional, he was based on a being bearing certain qualities in common with him. Though the circumstances wouldn't be exactly proportional to our state of affairs in the real world, there's no guarantee that the opposite perception of mythical creatures isn't true.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2009, 07:30 AM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

I've always dreamt of dragons being real, as nerdy as that sounds. I love how they're viewed in Greek mythology and Norse mythology, equally. In my opinion, views on dragons have stretched and have become deformed over the centuries. But, I still love the myth of them. In some ways, they are real. And in other ways, they are fictitious creatures. It is our belief in the myth of them that make them real. We can always dream, can't we? :)

I can't put my finger on the name of them, but the other creature that is similar to the dragon, except that it has no wings, and it's scales are supposed to be as hard, if not harder, than steel. It was depicted in 'The Last Olympian', when Clarisse fights and kills it. That's gonna bug me >_> But, I view that creature as more mystical than the "dragon", being more ancient and more legendary then it.
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2009, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Dragons...Real or Fiction?

Wasn't the name dragon given to the European and Eastern reptiles because of their similarities? They could have been concieved as two entirely different unrelated creatures, only similarity being they were large mythical reptiles. I doubt they were actually believed to be two species of the same dragon family. Some person decided the two were related. Doesn't really mean they are in any way. So the idea of different cultures identifying the same species is kinda invalid.

Also I believe there could have been some large reptile which could have been an inspiration, probably a dinosaur. But the idea of fire-breathing magical creatures existing is just stupid.
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