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  #1  
Old 09-24-2009, 06:04 PM
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Default Moving the Flag

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CNN article

I don't think the Confederate Flag should be removed, partly because of this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the article linked on CNN
The Confederate battle flag was placed atop the Statehouse dome in 1962, but was removed from the dome in 2000 after a divisive political fight that spilled into national view. The flag was moved to a spot on the Statehouse grounds next to a memorial honoring Confederate soldiers.
<Bold by me>

It's next to a memorial for Confederates, not atop a flagpole beside the Stars and Stripes. The article does go on to say that its "In plain view", but so what? Should we throw it away or hide behind the memorial in shame? I don't think its holding us back in terms of racial equality, I don't think its saying the Confederate's were right. It goes along w/a memorial citizens who died either doing what they thought was right or doing it b/c their family was also fighting on that side of the war.

The flag is part of the nation's history. Its beside a memorial, not to be proud of, but to remember the war, both sides of it. We can't hide what happened and just b/c it is visible, so what? Sure, some could get upset by seeing it, or they could use the moment to remind themselves and their children of a terrible war and the things that came from it. You remember the past so you don't make the same exact mistakes (not that that always works, but still). This is part of history. Will it do any harm to keep it around so we remember what happened?

I could be wrong, IDK. Side note, don't we have better things to do then argue about a flag beside a memorial? (Well, I don't mean on a discussion forum where you practice debating/talking, but national politics have other things to debate on and fix)
-
BTW: if you question why their is a memorial to Confederates, then google it. You're find out why they put one up and the reasons behind doing so. It's interesting =)
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Old 09-24-2009, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

I'd just say that those soldiers died fighting for the Confederate ideology. Even if the country has turned away from and antagonized its implications, it doesn't give us the right to usurp the dignity of those soldiers in memory. A flag is just a symbol, such that it demands not embrace but acknowledgment. People have fought and died because they did so in lieu of selfishness and cynicism - no matter whose side they were on, those people deserve to keep their dignity, if not a legacy.
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarago View Post
I'd just say that those soldiers died fighting for the Confederate ideology. Even if the country has turned away from and antagonized its implications, it doesn't give us the right to usurp the dignity of those soldiers in memory. A flag is just a symbol, such that it demands not embrace but acknowledgment. People have fought and died because they did so in lieu of selfishness and cynicism - no matter whose side they were on, those people deserve to keep their dignity, if not a legacy.
Just like a pentagram and a swastika?

Well, when people see the Confederate flag, what do they think it stands for? The soldiers that died or the Confederate ideology? Well, back then it stood for the ideology, so I think there is where the problem is. I can see where people are offended by it, it's sort of like waving USSR's flag here on American soil for some people and it just totally offends them. I think these people don't mind a memorial for the fallen soldiers on the Confederate side, since they were Americans, but flying something that stood for a totally broken idea that goes against the morals and values of most American citizens is.

The only personally problem I have for it, is the line that usually goes along with it: "The south shall rise again!" When I hear that or see that I think: "WTF? Do you want another Civil War? Yeah that's just what we need right now." >_>
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:55 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubatheDiverman View Post
Just like a pentagram and a swastika?

Well, when people see the Confederate flag, what do they think it stands for? The soldiers that died or the Confederate ideology? Well, back then it stood for the ideology, so I think there is where the problem is. I can see where people are offended by it, it's sort of like waving USSR's flag here on American soil for some people and it just totally offends them. I think these people don't mind a memorial for the fallen soldiers on the Confederate side, since they were Americans, but flying something that stood for a totally broken idea that goes against the morals and values of most American citizens is.

The only personally problem I have for it, is the line that usually goes along with it: "The south shall rise again!" When I hear that or see that I think: "WTF? Do you want another Civil War? Yeah that's just what we need right now." >_>
Well, it depends on how subtle a symbol can be. Though the Confederacy was innately based on a system that was doomed to fail because of its economic and political demands and shortcomings, they came about because of the ideas implied by the Constitution. I think they deserve at least their flag because it's unfair to them for posterity - who has derived the lesson from their shortcomings - to claim that their flag, their pride, does not bode well with modern America. They died for that flag. Nothing gives us the right to claim that their efforts amounted to nothing.

However, I do understand that public display of these symbols can be rather disturbing for some. In that sense, I can agree with you - perhaps they can have their flag, but reasonably concealed such that only visitors to the memorial can see it.
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Old 09-25-2009, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

I don't live in the south so I don't fully know how it's thought of, but from my perspective it should be taken down. Don't forget those soldiers killed a lot of Union soldiers in the War of Northern Aggression, and also fought for the right to forcibly enslave black people to maximize profit.
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmachameleon View Post
I don't live in the south so I don't fully know how it's thought of, but from my perspective it should be taken down. Don't forget those soldiers killed a lot of Union soldiers in the War of Northern Aggression, and also fought for the right to forcibly enslave black people to maximize profit.
Union soldiers also killed Confederate soldiers. On that conviction, they're no different.

Abraham Lincoln never took the Union to war with the intention of abolishing slavery, either. He knew he had to restore the Union, and that's all he set out to do. Regarding slavery - and much as the Founding Fathers did -, he considered it to be an issue that posterity would gradually resolve. A simple reason for why he did come to abolish slavery was simply because the North had almost no use for slaves, and so they used that contrast to conjure the odd pretense of cultural differences between the two governments.

All I'm saying is that each side had their own relatively justified reasons for promoting the ideals that they did. I agree that slavery is a cruel and demeaning institution, but if you're going to judge people based on their view of the matter, then you can't ingenuously claim that the North was golden simply because they won. By technicality, everyone could have been considered a pretty terrible person back then.
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

The Confederate flag is a symbol of disunion and disregard of modern America. While it shouldn't be banned, putting one up is telling the world that you don't care for the national government and probably vehemently disagree with its policies, regardless of whether the government is Republican or Democrat.
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Old 09-26-2009, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
The Confederate flag is a symbol of disunion and disregard of modern America. While it shouldn't be banned, putting one up is telling the world that you don't care for the national government and probably vehemently disagree with its policies, regardless of whether the government is Republican or Democrat.
But the placement of this particular flag represents soldiers who died for the cause of the Confederacy. We can't usurp the prevalence of their dignity simply because we deem our own ideals superior to theirs. I don't phrase it like that because I doubt the system we have now, but because they honestly believed in those ideals, and we don't deserve to condemn them for that.

Yeah, if someone in the modern day put up the Confederate flag with an honest belief in it, that would mean that they are a little crazy, but that's because our modern environment doesn't instill those ideas.

Anyway, if anything, I think the flag should be flown at the memorial site - perhaps not in view to most of the public, but at least so that visitors can acknowledge it.
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Old 09-26-2009, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarago View Post
Anyway, if anything, I think the flag should be flown at the memorial site - perhaps not in view to most of the public, but at least so that visitors can acknowledge it.
Generally, I agree with most of what else was said in this post, but here I have a slight problem.

Is it such a bad thing if it is displayed in plain view for most of the public to see? I mean, will it incite anger or problems or whatever, or will it serve as a memorial to those who died AND a remembrance to both sides of a tragic war? Will it spark debate about the war, so it's one more string that ties it into modern memory?

I'm not saying it should be in plain view, but I am asking what's the harm in keeping it exactly where it is?
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Old 09-26-2009, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoness View Post
Generally, I agree with most of what else was said in this post, but here I have a slight problem.

Is it such a bad thing if it is displayed in plain view for most of the public to see? I mean, will it incite anger or problems or whatever, or will it serve as a memorial to those who died AND a remembrance to both sides of a tragic war? Will it spark debate about the war, so it's one more string that ties it into modern memory?

I'm not saying it should be in plain view, but I am asking what's the harm in keeping it exactly where it is?
According to these other people, it will come off as instilling secessionist/slavery/etc. ideals.

Personally, I don't see why we can't bury a lot of the facts and leave the flag as simply representative of the title of "Confederacy" like the world has done with so many other subjects. Then again, that in itself is being disrespectful to those soldiers that died - keeping it quiet is a lot better than lying about it.

If people that have gotten past, say, 4th grade, see a swastika symbol put up anywhere, they'll assume - with rather good reason - that that place is associated with extreme Fascism/Nazism. Though the Confederate flag didn't represent such an extremist movement, people will react the same way because history has denied their prevalence. Though younger kids cannot derive anything from these flags an symbols, parents and older kids can, and so they'll feel insecure about kids being exposed to them. That's really the only reason the flag should be relatively concealed. Personally, I have nothing against keeping it in plain view.
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Old 09-26-2009, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubatheDiverman View Post
Just like a pentagram and a swastika?

Well, when people see the Confederate flag, what do they think it stands for? The soldiers that died or the Confederate ideology? Well, back then it stood for the ideology, so I think there is where the problem is. I can see where people are offended by it, it's sort of like waving USSR's flag here on American soil for some people and it just totally offends them. I think these people don't mind a memorial for the fallen soldiers on the Confederate side, since they were Americans, but flying something that stood for a totally broken idea that goes against the morals and values of most American citizens is.

The only personally problem I have for it, is the line that usually goes along with it: "The south shall rise again!" When I hear that or see that I think: "WTF? Do you want another Civil War? Yeah that's just what we need right now." >_>
There is a huge difference between a Swastika and the Confederate flag, especially whilst being flown at a Confederate memorial. A Swastika has essentially evolved from being the sign of the Nazi party of Germany into a sign of the persecution of Judaism and those who worship it, while the Confederate flag is not symbolic of the persecution of blacks and their rights. They simply fought for what they thought right, and in their mind slavery was right. You might think that it is god awful, but if you were a wealthy plantation owner who had grown up with slavery, where it was a social norm and perfectly acceptable, you would find it decent as well.

Also, it's simply a sign of respect of those that died fighting for what they thought it right. Are you saying that everyone we ever fought against in a war was wrong, and that our opinion is holy and right against everyone else's? If that is so, I sorely pity you, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmachameleon View Post
I don't live in the south so I don't fully know how it's thought of, but from my perspective it should be taken down. Don't forget those soldiers killed a lot of Union soldiers in the War of Northern Aggression, and also fought for the right to forcibly enslave black people to maximize profit.
It was a war, and in all war people kill each other. The Confederate seccession was what drove Lincoln to attack the South; the North was not attacked. The North started the war, and the South fought to keep their land. Seccession is currently an illegal process, but at that time the allowance of such an action was questionable, and that uncertainty was taken advantage of by the Southern states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
The Confederate flag is a symbol of disunion and disregard of modern America. While it shouldn't be banned, putting one up is telling the world that you don't care for the national government and probably vehemently disagree with its policies, regardless of whether the government is Republican or Democrat.
The Confederate flag is not a sign of disunion and disregard of America, it is a sign of respect for those who died fighting. Surely you can fly a Vietnamese flag without being yelled at because Vietnamese soldiers killed American ones in the Vietnam war?
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

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Originally Posted by Lusitania View Post
There is a huge difference between a Swastika and the Confederate flag, especially whilst being flown at a Confederate memorial. A Swastika has essentially evolved from being the sign of the Nazi party of Germany into a sign of the persecution of Judaism and those who worship it, while the Confederate flag is not symbolic of the persecution of blacks and their rights. They simply fought for what they thought right, and in their mind slavery was right. You might think that it is god awful, but if you were a wealthy plantation owner who had grown up with slavery, where it was a social norm and perfectly acceptable, you would find it decent as well.
That's not what most people think, even though your right. Also most racist use it as their symbol, well were I live they do.

Also to make this clear, I'm all for them having it flown at the memorial because it's representing something else. But symbols can represent two different things.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusitania View Post
There is a huge difference between a Swastika and the Confederate flag, especially whilst being flown at a Confederate memorial. A Swastika has essentially evolved from being the sign of the Nazi party of Germany into a sign of the persecution of Judaism and those who worship it, while the Confederate flag is not symbolic of the persecution of blacks and their rights.
Actually that is completely wrong. The Swastika is a Buddhist symbol which the Nazis took and distorted. There is nothing wrong with the Swastika in and of itself, unless of course you put it against a red and white background. And as Scuba said, the Confederate flag can be viewed as a symbol of racial persecution.

I say let them fly the flag. It is the flag that those soldiers fought under and they deserve to have it fly over their memorial. If the Nazis had a memorial in Germany then I would say they should have the Nazi flag flying over it despite that they fought for the wrong causes, and I say exactly the same for the Confederate soldiers.
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Old 09-28-2009, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Moving the Flag

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Actually that is completely wrong. The Swastika is a Buddhist symbol which the Nazis took and distorted. There is nothing wrong with the Swastika in and of itself, unless of course you put it against a red and white background. And as Scuba said, the Confederate flag can be viewed as a symbol of racial persecution.

I say let them fly the flag. It is the flag that those soldiers fought under and they deserve to have it fly over their memorial. If the Nazis had a memorial in Germany then I would say they should have the Nazi flag flying over it despite that they fought for the wrong causes, and I say exactly the same for the Confederate soldiers.
I think the secular meaning of the swastika has been effectively changed from whatever it meant to Buddhists to a symbol of Nazi ideals. Though some may see it as what it means by origin, most of the world associates it with the Nazi party.

I guess it's like the Holy Roman Empire. The Roman Empire arose from Italy, and though the Holy Roman Empire claimed to carry on their tradition, they were actually German. Everyone else in the 15th century knew this, but they still referred to them as the Holy Roman Empire.
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