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  #31  
Old 10-12-2009, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

Everyone has a right to healthcare but at what cost? Just because someone goes out and drinks all the time or smokes for a certain amount of years, and can't afford healthcare doesn't nessecarily mean that we should have to pay for them. I'm okay with universal healthcare as long as people are held accountable for their own bodies and health. American people shouldn't have to go broke paying medical bills for someone who od on heroine because they put themselves in that situation. Healthcare is a right, but not one that should be given out lightly.
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  #32  
Old 10-13-2009, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Only people can have whims or impulses. Only people can have individual judgement or preference. Only people can make up courts or be judges. Only people can act despotically. Arbitrarily by definition refers to the actions of people. For this reason, disease is not part of the "Right to Life", because disease is not arbitrary.

Also, by extension, dying because one lacks the ability to pay for healthcare is not arbitrary either. Arbitrary would be the doctor refusing you treatment for no reason except personal preference (which is a criminal act). Unless the lack of property is due to unfair and arbitrary decisions made by other people (which is also a criminal act), then the lack of ability to pay for health is not arbitrary. Hence, healthcare is not a right.
So you believe that if we had the means to help people without healthcare, and we simply don't, that's not arbitrary? That if we can help someone but make the choice not to then it isn't a despotic act, us controlling the fate of another by denying them what could be offered.

You're right. Health isn't a right protected under the Constitution or the Universal Declaration. But you know what? I don't care. It might not be a legal right, but we have a right to live to see another day, we have a right to not leave our families and friends without us in their lives, we have a right not to drop dead and leave our children without a parent while being buried, and for anyone to deny you that right, be they a private insurance company or some political suit who doesn't want that insurance company's money to fly out of their pocket, is totally, completely and 100% an arbitrary act.
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  #33  
Old 10-13-2009, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
So you believe that if we had the means to help people without healthcare, and we simply don't, that's not arbitrary? That if we can help someone but make the choice not to then it isn't a despotic act, us controlling the fate of another by denying them what could be offered.

You're right. Health isn't a right protected under the Constitution or the Universal Declaration. But you know what? I don't care. It might not be a legal right, but we have a right to live to see another day, we have a right to not leave our families and friends without us in their lives, we have a right not to drop dead and leave our children without a parent while being buried, and for anyone to deny you that right, be they a private insurance company or some political suit who doesn't want that insurance company's money to fly out of their pocket, is totally, completely and 100% an arbitrary act.
Whether health is a natural right or not is completely dependent on personal preference, and, as such, is not debatable. Since it's not debatable, I am arguing what IS debatable: whether health is a legal right or not.

If this thread was about personal opinion, then it doesn't belong in Other Discussion, which is for intelligent debate. Something that can be supported with evidence and logic, not by what one happens to feel.
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  #34  
Old 10-13-2009, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Whether health is a natural right or not is completely dependent on personal preference, and, as such, is not debatable. Since it's not debatable, I am arguing what IS debatable: whether health is a legal right or not.

If this thread was about personal opinion, then it doesn't belong in Other Discussion, which is for intelligent debate. Something that can be supported with evidence and logic, not by what one happens to feel.
Well, since you're so familiar with logical fallacy I'm sure you're familiar with the three methods of logical argument, in this case pathos, the appeal to emotions. Despite popular belief emotion is a large part of logic and debate, being that it is a large part of what drives us to form opinions and ideas.

That aside, check the original post. Kenny says nothing about law. Whether it is a legal right is where the course of discussion has lead, but whether it is a right period, either legal or natural, is the topic of the thread.
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  #35  
Old 10-13-2009, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
Well, since you're so familiar with logical fallacy I'm sure you're familiar with the three methods of logical argument, in this case pathos, the appeal to emotions. Despite popular belief emotion is a large part of logic and debate, being that it is a large part of what drives us to form opinions and ideas.

That aside, check the original post. Kenny says nothing about law. Whether it is a legal right is where the course of discussion has lead, but whether it is a right period, either legal or natural, is the topic of the thread.
Arguing whether something is a natural right or not is as silly as arguing whether murder is wrong or not. Either position is impossible to attack due to the fact that they are completely dependent on one's personal preferences. The topic may be about health as a natural or legal right, but I don't have to argue it for being or not being a natural right. I don't see any point in doing so, and I personally have no opinion on the subject. Therefore, I pick the other side of argument to debate.

Oh, and emotion is not part of logic. It's quite the antithesis of logic. Appeal to pathos is a valid technique in argumentation, but for this particular case, the pathos in question is so set in stone that it is for all intents and purposes, unmovable.
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  #36  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Arguing whether something is a natural right or not is as silly as arguing whether murder is wrong or not. Either position is impossible to attack due to the fact that they are completely dependent on one's personal preferences. The topic may be about health as a natural or legal right, but I don't have to argue it for being or not being a natural right. I don't see any point in doing so, and I personally have no opinion on the subject. Therefore, I pick the other side of argument to debate.

Oh, and emotion is not part of logic. It's quite the antithesis of logic. Appeal to pathos is a valid technique in argumentation, but for this particular case, the pathos in question is so set in stone that it is for all intents and purposes, unmovable.
All right, you want what I said there converted from emotion to logic? All right then.

You stated yourself that the right to life means that we can not have our lives taken away arbitrarily, i.e. by human design. What I stated, in perhaps too passionate of tone for your apparently Vulcan approach to logic, is that when the proper health care which would help treat or cure someone of a disease is denied, that is, in a sense, a human deciding that this person will not live, ergo it is a death by human design, ergo it is arbitrary. Therefore we have a legal right, at the very least, to not be denied health care (quick emotional outburst here, private health insurers are thieves and murderers who take people's money to allegedly be able to help them when they get sick and then abandon them so as to not have to spend that money. We have a means, a motive, and no alibi, so why are they not in jail yet?)

By that same token, if the politicians on Capitol Hill decide not to instate a public health insurance plan, or help people to be able to pay for health insurance, then people who can't afford it are going to die, being unable to pay medical fees. As that would be an active decision by those politicians, it would also be by human design, and therefore arbitrary.

So, taking those two things into account, we do in fact have a legal right to health care, as the government and health insurers alike can help people to get it and simply do not, an act of human judgment based on personal gain as opposed to reason or logic, which, oh by the way, fits the definition you submitted for "arbitrary" perfectly.
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  #37  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:22 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Khajmer View Post
All right, you want what I said there converted from emotion to logic? All right then.

You stated yourself that the right to life means that we can not have our lives taken away arbitrarily, i.e. by human design. What I stated, in perhaps too passionate of tone for your apparently Vulcan approach to logic, is that when the proper health care which would help treat or cure someone of a disease is denied, that is, in a sense, a human deciding that this person will not live, ergo it is a death by human design, ergo it is arbitrary. Therefore we have a legal right, at the very least, to not be denied health care (quick emotional outburst here, private health insurers are thieves and murderers who take people's money to allegedly be able to help them when they get sick and then abandon them so as to not have to spend that money. We have a means, a motive, and no alibi, so why are they not in jail yet?)

By that same token, if the politicians on Capitol Hill decide not to instate a public health insurance plan, or help people to be able to pay for health insurance, then people who can't afford it are going to die, being unable to pay medical fees. As that would be an active decision by those politicians, it would also be by human design, and therefore arbitrary.

So, taking those two things into account, we do in fact have a legal right to health care, as the government and health insurers alike can help people to get it and simply do not, an act of human judgment based on personal gain as opposed to reason or logic, which, oh by the way, fits the definition you submitted for "arbitrary" perfectly.
Arbitrary is by definition, only applicable if there's a single person making the decision. Hence, a doctor making a choice not to give treatment to someone is arbitrary, but 100 Senators on Capital Hill is not.

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a human deciding that this person will not live, ergo it is a death by human design, ergo it is arbitrary
Yes. A human. When humans do it, it is no different than from a criminal court. When a group of humans do something, is it by definition not arbitrary. A large group of people will almost never be able to do anything on a whim--parties must be convinced, people turned, arguments made. Therefore, the actions of any sufficiently large governing body is virtually incapable of being arbitrary. They can be misguided, naive, silly, or foolish, but not arbitrary.
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  #38  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

Lusankya, I concede to your point of arbitrariness. However, now that we are entirely on agreement that the Universal Declaration of Humans Rights is a valid point as to determination of whether or not health should be a right:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Article 25, Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Case in point, like social welfare, health care should be provided as a right to health.

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  #39  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Arbitrary is by definition, only applicable if there's a single person making the decision. Hence, a doctor making a choice not to give treatment to someone is arbitrary, but 100 Senators on Capital Hill is not.


Yes. A human. When humans do it, it is no different than from a criminal court. When a group of humans do something, is it by definition not arbitrary. A large group of people will almost never be able to do anything on a whim--parties must be convinced, people turned, arguments made. Therefore, the actions of any sufficiently large governing body is virtually incapable of being arbitrary. They can be misguided, naive, silly, or foolish, but not arbitrary.
All right, I'll concede that Lus. But aside from poking Kenny's post about the UDoHR above me despite the fact that you'll probably have already responded by the time this gets posted, I would like to point out that it is not the politicians who are making the decision. If it were then I would agree with you, but thanks to that annoying little thing called campaign financing politicians are bound to the lobbies that contributed to their campaigns and will continue to contribute to their campaigns. And since so very many of them are private insurance companies who wish to continue their practice of murder without reprecussion it's not really up to the politicians but the companies, who are run by a select few who have already made their agreement that this is to happen. Therefore it is in fact done on a whim, their whim specifically, and therefore, it is arbitrary.
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  #40  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Lusankya, I concede to your point of arbitrariness. However, now that we are entirely on agreement that the Universal Declaration of Humans Rights is a valid point as to determination of whether or not health should be a right:



Case in point, like social welfare, health care should be provided as a right to health.

Source
While I only responded to that as a refutation of your point, I'll concede that one.

Quote:
All right, I'll concede that Lus. But aside from poking Kenny's post about the UDoHR above me despite the fact that you'll probably have already responded by the time this gets posted, I would like to point out that it is not the politicians who are making the decision. If it were then I would agree with you, but thanks to that annoying little thing called campaign financing politicians are bound to the lobbies that contributed to their campaigns and will continue to contribute to their campaigns. And since so very many of them are private insurance companies who wish to continue their practice of murder without reprecussion it's not really up to the politicians but the companies, who are run by a select few who have already made their agreement that this is to happen. Therefore it is in fact done on a whim, their whim specifically, and therefore, it is arbitrary.
The people that make up those private insurance companies are even more numerous than the politicians, so it is in fact, even less arbitrary. Again. The larger the group, the less likely it is that any act of it occurs on a whim.
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  #41  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:59 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
While I only responded to that as a refutation of your point, I'll concede that one.



The people that make up those private insurance companies are even more numerous than the politicians, so it is in fact, even less arbitrary. Again. The larger the group, the less likely it is that any act of it occurs on a whim.
That doesn't take into account that they are all the same soulless blackhearted bastard on the inside Lus. I'm not going to generalize business leaders or insurance companies, but the fact is that you get to be in a position of power in a business by making that business a lot of money, and in the private insurance industry you turn the best profit by turning people away when they need you. Whether it's one person or a hundred in that insurance company they are all part of the same corporate machine, all of them cogs that spin towards the same goal: profit. And that aside, do you really think the entire company goes through cases one by one and considers each and every one of them? No. It's individual insurance agents or very small teams, not large numbers of people that make the decision.
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  #42  
Old 10-13-2009, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
While I only responded to that as a refutation of your point, I'll concede that one.
It was interesting that you dedicated an entire post on one point I made, while basically not responding to anything else I said. I took that as a complement.

Yeah, we definitely needed to agree upon that the Universal Declaration was indeed a standard of measure for human rights before I can actually state the article. :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
The people that make up those private insurance companies are even more numerous than the politicians, so it is in fact, even less arbitrary. Again. The larger the group, the less likely it is that any act of it occurs on a whim.
I agree, which is why health care is so darn sick.
I can't believe that one can actually justify increasing profit margins of insurance companies to actually be more valid than universal health care. That is, universal health care is not profit-based, which means that people only basically have to pay the money they're paying now for insurance companies to cover for health care: the fact that there would be hundreds of billions in surplus from just that would mean that people wouldn't have to headache about money.

It's unfortunate and heartbreaking to hear things about my friend sometimes. Her mother is currently undergoing surgical procedures to get rid of a cancer, and need to cough up a substantial amount (1200US) to cover for whatever the insurance companies didn't cover. Her mother is funding my friend here in medical school, and on top of that have to cough up that much money? I'm sorry, but she's in the crisis of her life, the last thing she needs is to think of how she needs to pay this much money just to live.
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  #43  
Old 10-13-2009, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
While I only responded to that as a refutation of your point, I'll concede that one.

You know, you guys can use a word other than "concede"... All three of you have said it consistently, and it sounds a little odd when I'm reading it.

The people that make up those private insurance companies are even more numerous than the politicians, so it is in fact, even less arbitrary. Again. The larger the group, the less likely it is that any act of it occurs on a whim.
You should consider the idea of group polarization, though. This is merely hypothetical, but groups do have the propensity to formulate overly extreme solutions to their problems when they consciously try to avoid a lack of relevant analysis of their situation - groupthink, which is how the Kennedy administration screwed themselves over with the Bay of Pigs.

Point is, groups can gravitate toward either of two different kinds of extremes, but there isn't necessarily any middle ground. I'd argue that this in and of itself incorporates logos, pathos, as well as ethos in coming to a solution. Supreme Court cases can even be swayed by emotion in their decision making - in Lawrence v. Texas, part of the written decision questioned why we (and all of Western civilization) previously had anti-sodomy laws based on the claim that it was "evil".
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  #44  
Old 10-13-2009, 05:09 AM
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Wink Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Diarago View Post
You should consider the idea of group polarization, though. This is merely hypothetical, but groups do have the propensity to formulate overly extreme solutions to their problems when they consciously try to avoid a lack of relevant analysis of their situation - groupthink, which is how the Kennedy administration screwed themselves over with the Bay of Pigs.

Point is, groups can gravitate toward either of two different kinds of extremes, but there isn't necessarily any middle ground. I'd argue that this in and of itself incorporates logos, pathos, as well as ethos in coming to a solution. Supreme Court cases can even be swayed by emotion in their decision making - in Lawrence v. Texas, part of the written decision questioned why we (and all of Western civilization) previously had anti-sodomy laws based on the claim that it was "evil".
Emotion and judgment usually go along with each other. Though there are certain cases...eh! Forget it, back to topic:

Depends on how you define "rights": if you live in the U.S. you have the right to pursue happiness, the right to free speech, the right to bear arms (the metal kind, not the flesh arms :P) and so on. But should having medical care be part of that? It'd be nice, but I'm not sure if that is such a good idea.

Like, for example, you didn't want to get insurance from the government, but getting private is too expensive. Yes, I know people already have this problem, but I wonder if these guys really mean what they say about health care? Eh. Of course their make threats, but it sounds like they have a point. A point I don't like.

I want free health care, it would relieve a burden on a lot of people. At the same time, I feel a little cautious about getting it for "free".

As for it being a right, tech. the Bill of Rights was done chiefly by James Madison. I can argue whether those are actual rights since they can be taken from us if enough people vote on them *coughProhibitioncough* Anyway, it'd be nice to have in theory, but the reality may not be as nice. It is as much a "right" as any of our other rights.
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  #45  
Old 10-13-2009, 05:23 AM
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Default Re: Universal Healthcare: Is health a right?

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Originally Posted by Dragoness View Post
the right to bear arms (the metal kind, not the flesh arms :P)
Actually it refers to the right to hang a pair of bear arms on your wall.

Quote:
As for it being a right, tech. the Bill of Rights was done chiefly by James Madison. I can argue whether those are actual rights since they can be taken from us if enough people vote on them *coughProhibitioncough* Anyway, it'd be nice to have in theory, but the reality may not be as nice. It is as much a "right" as any of our other rights.
*scans Bill of Rights* Nope, no right to get wasted here. Prohibition was a stupid and unenforceable idea to be sure, but didn't go against the Bill of Rights.
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