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  #46  
Old 09-18-2012, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Etymology View Post
@Teddiursa of the Sky: If the Bible were to promote only positive values, would you really have any problem with Christianity (or other religions, I'm not sure which you seem to be against)? Of course, that's subject to opinion in what is considered a 'positive value', but you get my point. In essence, I could describe a religion that promotes what one could consider 'correct morals and ethics' with the only major factor being the belief in a deity. Would followers of such a religion be much different from you and I, and would they bother you as much?

Sometimes I wonder if a new, modern religion could be made to promote fair and just social standards. *Shrug* Who knows. But even then there would be many that'd disagree.
I would still be opposed to the idea of pseudoscience, which religion doesn't govern exclusively, but still fosters it. That opposition is apart of my skepticism and rationalism. I would be less opposed to religion if it was not responsible for a good portion of modern bigotry, but I would definitely dislike it.

Followers' blind faith and frequent belief in pseudoscience results in bigotry and ignorance.

This is not about my disdain for religion, this thread concerns why many are against homosexual marriage.

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I think there's an anti-religious vitriol in this thread.
There's an anti-bigotry agenda here. I was not the one to mention religion, and tried to avoid doing so until my last two posts.
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  #47  
Old 10-20-2012, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

Sorry to revive an old thread (come on, it's only by a day) but this is a topic that is very dear to me. Some of the older guys on here may know, most of you probably don't, but I am gay. I have been with my partner for 4 years, we met at university studying the same degree, and are very, very happy together. In terms of acceptance, I would like to mention a few things that have happened recently in my home state of Queensland, Australia, along with some personal experiences.

Just over a year ago, our state government voted to legalise civil unions for gay couples, it's not marriage but it's not far from it. It provides several legal and financial protections in the event of the death of a partner, among other things. It was a really great day for the gay community when this came through, as Queensland is often seen as a 'backwards' state, quite racist and homophobic (kind of like the stereotypical southern states of the USA, though not as extreme, and based completely on ignorance). About 6 months ago, our government changed, and the conservative party won by a landslide. The new government have continuously gone on about how bad our economy is (it's actually one of the best performing in the nation thanks to mining) and how everything is the old governments fault. However, regardless of this apparent economic turmoil, their first act as government was to remove civil unions from Queensland law. Due to severe public backlash, they were not removed completely, however the legal term is now 'registered relationship,' and there is no state sanctioning of any same-sex ceremony, and there are fewer legal rights. It basically means now that the state law will recognise your relationship, however you only have the same rights upon death of a partner/divorce as a mistress does should something similar happen. At any ceremony, the performing celebrant is legally required to read a script which states basically that the state government of Queensland does not support this union and that it is not a real marriage. This was literally the first act they approved as a government. I guess a similar thing happened in California with Prop 8.

It's a pretty huge kick in the guts for the gay community, one where teen suicide runs rampant, and STI infection rates are rapidly climbing, meanwhile the government is pulling as much funding as it can from organisations which aim to prevent both of these things and more. I still cannot believe that taking away the rights of tax paying citizens ranks higher on their list of importance than fixing the apparently broken economy.

On a more personal note, while acceptance of homosexuality is rising in Australia, I still fear for my safety when I am in certain areas of the city because I am gay. I still have negative things yelled at me, and I even have friends who still insist on using 'gay' as a synonym for bad. I hear stories of people my age being beaten in more regional cities for no reason other than being gay. All the while the religious right (I didn't want to being up religion because I don't think we can yell from the building tops that certain people are bigots and not be scrutinised ourselves) continue to use 'traditional family values' and passages from the bible to justify their blatant homophobia, and they get away with it. If people stood up today and said that, for example, black people were not allowed to be married, they would be ignored or put in jail depending on the level of severity. However this level of discrimination happens every day to gay people and I feel like the vast majority of society just stands by and ignores it. A lot of people say they support gay rights, however we are not going to get the laws changed unless they start to stand beside us and add to our growing voice.

Guess I should stop ranting now. That's my 2 cents on the subject.

- ND
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  #48  
Old 10-21-2012, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple View Post
Just over a year ago, our state government voted to legalise civil unions for gay couples, it's not marriage but it's not far from it. It provides several legal and financial protections in the event of the death of a partner, among other things. It was a really great day for the gay community when this came through, as Queensland is often seen as a 'backwards' state, quite racist and homophobic (kind of like the stereotypical southern states of the USA, though not as extreme, and based completely on ignorance). About 6 months ago, our government changed, and the conservative party won by a landslide. The new government have continuously gone on about how bad our economy is (it's actually one of the best performing in the nation thanks to mining) and how everything is the old governments fault. However, regardless of this apparent economic turmoil, their first act as government was to remove civil unions from Queensland law.
- ND
That's awful! That's despicable! Did they at least honor the civil unions from before they removed it? Like a "grandfather clause". You were a civil union before we removed the ability to have one, but because of that we're going to begrudgingly honor yours. It's how my grandmother avoided paying extra insurance on her pool. She had it before her company added extra money to monthly payments for pool owners.

As a Pansexual (Not going into detail about it, no it does not mean I'm sexually attracted to pots and pans) I get upset when people are denied the right to have a civil union or be married based solely on gender. Love knows no limitations, so why the law has the ability to deny people this right is beyond me.
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  #49  
Old 10-21-2012, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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That's awful! That's despicable! Did they at least honor the civil unions from before they removed it? Like a "grandfather clause". You were a civil union before we removed the ability to have one, but because of that we're going to begrudgingly honor yours. It's how my grandmother avoided paying extra insurance on her pool. She had it before her company added extra money to monthly payments for pool owners.

As a Pansexual (Not going into detail about it, no it does not mean I'm sexually attracted to pots and pans) I get upset when people are denied the right to have a civil union or be married based solely on gender. Love knows no limitations, so why the law has the ability to deny people this right is beyond me.
Luckily, they legally had to honour the civil unions performed prior to the change, however as soon as the new government came in, they stopped approving any civil unions because they knew they were going to change the law. The most hilarious thing about the whole situation is that the leader of the party, who is now the state's Premier, supports same sex marriage, however because his party doesn't, it was the first thing they stamped out.

You know, you're the first person I've met that has openly identified as pansexual. Most that I know of say that they're bi or something of the sort. It's great to meet someone who is so open and accepting of it :)

I agree completely with your second paragraph. It just amazes me. If I don't have the same rights and legal protections as all the other citizens then I shouldn't pay the same taxes. The national government has recognised same sex couples in so far as taxes and benefit schemes go (so basically, if you lose your job, and your partner earns over a certain minuscule amount, you are not entitled to any government subsidies or handouts) and they say that this is one of the 'best things they could do for same-sex couples' (meaning we get taxed based off a joint income, generally meaning we get taxed more), however we get none of the legal protection from a federal level that goes along with being a married couple. Makes me so very angry. Screw the 'lucky country' as we like to call ourselves, I'm moving to Canada.
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  #50  
Old 10-21-2012, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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You know, you're the first person I've met that has openly identified as pansexual. Most that I know of say that they're bi or something of the sort. It's great to meet someone who is so open and accepting of it :)

I agree completely with your second paragraph. It just amazes me. If I don't have the same rights and legal protections as all the other citizens then I shouldn't pay the same taxes. The national government has recognised same sex couples in so far as taxes and benefit schemes go (so basically, if you lose your job, and your partner earns over a certain minuscule amount, you are not entitled to any government subsidies or handouts) and they say that this is one of the 'best things they could do for same-sex couples' (meaning we get taxed based off a joint income, generally meaning we get taxed more), however we get none of the legal protection from a federal level that goes along with being a married couple. Makes me so very angry. Screw the 'lucky country' as we like to call ourselves, I'm moving to Canada.
I wonder why most people don't openly admit to being pansexual... Maybe it's because some people think we're godless heathens only interested in pleasure, when pansexuality is so much more than sex... oh well..

I'm honestly surprised that more governments don't just legalize full same sex marriages. The fact that same sex couples can't reproduce should be enough of a good reason. The world's population is far too high, and there are too many children in orphanages who would love two parents of any gender. It would give a needing child a loving family, and keep the global population from growing more... Canada does seem like a nice place to go... Tell you what, you move there, and I'll visit now and then. The Canadian border is only 5 hours from my house by car.
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  #51  
Old 10-21-2012, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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I wonder why most people don't openly admit to being pansexual... Maybe it's because some people think we're godless heathens only interested in pleasure, when pansexuality is so much more than sex... oh well..

I'm honestly surprised that more governments don't just legalize full same sex marriages. The fact that same sex couples can't reproduce should be enough of a good reason. The world's population is far too high, and there are too many children in orphanages who would love two parents of any gender. It would give a needing child a loving family, and keep the global population from growing more... Canada does seem like a nice place to go... Tell you what, you move there, and I'll visit now and then. The Canadian border is only 5 hours from my house by car.
I think a lot of people think that being any orientation other than 100% straight makes you a godless heathen. Maybe they do it because there isn't much awareness of what pansexuality entails? Who knows.

Considering most (western) nations have clearly defined separations of church and state, I'm surprised that more don't as well. I don't really see why it's even still up for debate, or why the church holds such a strong seat of power, considering it's meant to not have any. Oh well, one day it will happen, I believe it's just a matter of time. I'm more concerned with issues of general societal acceptance than gay marriage I guess. Gay marriage means nothing if I can't walk down my street holding my partners hand without fear of having things yelled at me, just like every other 'normal' couple.
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  #52  
Old 10-21-2012, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Considering most (western) nations have clearly defined separations of church and state, I'm surprised that more don't as well. I don't really see why it's even still up for debate, or why the church holds such a strong seat of power, considering it's meant to not have any. Oh well, one day it will happen, I believe it's just a matter of time. I'm more concerned with issues of general societal acceptance than gay marriage I guess. Gay marriage means nothing if I can't walk down my street holding my partners hand without fear of having things yelled at me, just like every other 'normal' couple.
As a "proud" New Yorker, I can pretty much tell you that they're not as separated as they should be. I do hope that one day the world will be more accepting of any sexuality. I'm guessing people are just afraid of what they can't understand, when all they do understand is "love" between a man and a woman. Personally, I feel that if you can't accept it, you just need to tolerate it. I don't agree with the concept of religion, but I don't go around destroying churches, temples, or synagogues. I accept that everyone is different and has the right to do or believe in whatever they want.

If everyone could just tolerate things, do you know how amazing life would be? We'd have the moon colonized by now. There'd be no war, there'd just be love as far as the eye can see.
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  #53  
Old 10-21-2012, 08:25 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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As a "proud" New Yorker, I can pretty much tell you that they're not as separated as they should be. I do hope that one day the world will be more accepting of any sexuality. I'm guessing people are just afraid of what they can't understand, when all they do understand is "love" between a man and a woman. Personally, I feel that if you can't accept it, you just need to tolerate it. I don't agree with the concept of religion, but I don't go around destroying churches, temples, or synagogues. I accept that everyone is different and has the right to do or believe in whatever they want.

If everyone could just tolerate things, do you know how amazing life would be? We'd have the moon colonized by now. There'd be no war, there'd just be love as far as the eye can see.
I agree completely, I don't really believe that there is any separation, at least not in the way that they think it is. We're meant to be a secular society, yet several of our laws are governed by 'Christian' values, our law courts still require to people to place a hand on the bible (as do many other legal statements), which is very odd, especially considering the symbolic nature of the bible and the multi-cultural society we live in and say that we support. Seems to me that society (mine, at least) is very much biased towards middle aged, straight, white men.

Tolerance would be bliss. I don't understand why some people get so worked up about homosexuality when it has literally nothing to do with them at all. We're not trying to recruit them to our ranks (regardless of what they think). We just want to live our life, the same as everyone else. You won't see us picketing to pull down the churches because they 'threaten our way of life' (well, hopefully you don't, any gay person who does that needs to look very seriously in the mirror, you can't fight hate and intolerance with hate and intolerance).

It's quite funny actually, there are records of same-sex weddings presided over by the Pope, hundreds of them in fact. There are even records of mass gay weddings held in St Peters Square as recently at the 1600's (I say recently, because in comparison to how long religion has been around, it is recent). The whole notion that the church has 'always condemned and opposed same-sex unions' is incredibly flawed.

I would also like to point out my belief regarding the term 'civil union.' It is not a marriage, if it were, it would be called a marriage. While they may have similar legal ramifications, the symbolic difference to me is huge. It's still the same as saying that gay people are a second class citizen, that we have one type of ceremony for straight couples (the traditional, culturally respected one), and we have a completely different term for those 'other people,' that don't fit into the traditional one man one woman profile. This goes for all sexual orientations outside of heterosexuality.

You mentioned before as well about over-population issues. It's a huge issue and one that the whole world is going to have to come together and sort out. Allowing gay people to adopt would solve so many issues. I'm not saying that gay people can't currently adopt, because in a lot of places they can, nor am I saying that marriage automatically equates to a 'stable' household or that you can't have one without it, I'm saying that it makes it a heck of a lot easier if you have a legally binding piece of paper which says your relationship is justified and recognised fully by the state.

I dunno, maybe my point of view is biased towards this, but I can't see any other view point that would be taken by an educated, ethical, and morally centred person. I really can't. To me, there is no logical argument against it. 'It's never been done before!' - yes it has, the ancient Greeks did it for hundreds of years, the Christian church even did it. 'It's against God!' - no, it's against what you believe of your god, please do not impose your personal BELIEFS on the way I live my life. Being gay is not a choice, whether by nature or nurture, or a combination of both, I have no say on the matter. It is not my belief, or something that I choose to believe, it is what I AM, and that is it. It does not define me, it is only one part of a much broader psyche, just like the fact that I have blue eyes and blonde hair. Things that I cannot change.

I would really love to hear from someone that doesn't support/tolerate this, mostly because I want to know why. Why it is that you feel you have the right to impose your life CHOICE on someone else, when all I, and others like me, are trying to live our lives with the same rights as everyone else.

- ND

NB: I use the term 'gay' and 'gay community' to describe all of those wihin the LGBTQ community.
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  #54  
Old 10-21-2012, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I am a chrstian, but my views on this aren't what people assume a Christians is. Okay, so I disagree with homosexuality, but homosexuals are people. We have differing beliefs in whether love is between a man and woman or whether it is more diverse, but that doesn't make me any better than them or vice versa. I am not to judge.

Romans 3:23 (NIV)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Basically that is saying sin is equal. In the eyes of God, me thinking angry thoguths towards a person is as much of a sin as homosexuality.

Matthew 7:3 (NIV)

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

What I am saying is that I don't think any less of a person who is a homosexual. I disagree with their beleifs. me hating a homosexual because of disagreements on beleifs is like me hating a person because they go for a different football team. Heck, one of my best friends is a lesbian. A couple of my christian friends think I should distance myself from her. I tell them I won't. just because I disagree with her sexual orientation, that doesn't mean they are any different to me before they came out of the closet.

In dot point form:
  • Bible says homsexuality is a sin
  • Bible says everyone sins
  • bible says all sins are equal in the eyes of god
  • bible says I should not judge a person for sinning when I am a sinner
  • therefore I won't treat someone who is homosexual any different than i would treat a hetrosexual
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  #55  
Old 10-21-2012, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Cobalt Shadow View Post
I am a chrstian, but my views on this aren't what people assume a Christians is. Okay, so I disagree with homosexuality, but homosexuals are people. We have differing beliefs in whether love is between a man and woman or whether it is more diverse, but that doesn't make me any better than them or vice versa. I am not to judge.

Romans 3:23 (NIV)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Basically that is saying sin is equal. In the eyes of God, me thinking angry thoguths towards a person is as much of a sin as homosexuality.

Matthew 7:3 (NIV)

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

What I am saying is that I don't think any less of a person who is a homosexual. I disagree with their beleifs. me hating a homosexual because of disagreements on beleifs is like me hating a person because they go for a different football team. Heck, one of my best friends is a lesbian. A couple of my christian friends think I should distance myself from her. I tell them I won't. just because I disagree with her sexual orientation, that doesn't mean they are any different to me before they came out of the closet.

In dot point form:
  • Bible says homsexuality is a sin
  • Bible says everyone sins
  • bible says all sins are equal in the eyes of god
  • bible says I should not judge a person for sinning when I am a sinner
  • therefore I won't treat someone who is homosexual any different than i would treat a hetrosexual
Cobalt Shadow, you have literally made my day! I particularly like the quote 'Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?' I think that this is something that all society should learn from, especially the gay community.

I would like to clarify that when I was talking about religion before, I was talking about the extreme right. I have several Christian friends who hold a similar view to you, they may agree with homosexuality on a religious level, but to them (as it seems to be to you), they believe it is not their place to judge, and therefore it is not an issue for them. One of their churches holds services in support of marriage equality.

I am not at all against religion in any way, I have seen the good that it can do and the sense of community that it brings many of its followers. The side of religion that is seen is 'bad' in gay circles is often the view of only a few, and I believe that the gay community needs to realise and recognise that. Like I've said before, no one ever got anywhere by hate (apart from Hitler I guess, and he's not exactly any sort of role model).

While I'm sure that we would disagree on some things, I'm really glad and thankful for the level of acceptance that you, as a Christian, are able to give the gay community, and I'm sure your friend is too.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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It was a really great day for the gay community when this came through, as Queensland is often seen as a 'backwards' state, quite racist and homophobic (kind of like the stereotypical southern states of the USA, though not as extreme, and based completely on ignorance).
PFAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, I found this funny.

I'm sad to say that I live in one of these stereotypical southern states, but trust me, it's based completely on ignorance (and partially on religion). It's to the point that it's infuriating how ignorant people can be. I consider myself pansexual, but a year ago I fell in love with the most amazing girl, and I love her with every little bit of my heart to this very day. Every day I wake up in smile because I'm so glad that she's in my life and that she opened my eyes to what it feels like for me to be truly happy with my life and who I am, and for that I could never thank her enough. We have literally had the least abrasive relationship that I've ever been in. Sure, we're young, but at this rate it's not going to exactly fall apart anytime in the near future (though I know that reality will swoop on in if we get our own place and stress will be inevitable, but until then...). But when I think about it, even if I were to ever get over the heartbreak if we were to split (again, as her mother made her break up with me about seven months ago after finding out that she was dating me, but emotionally we never exactly broke up), I don't think I could ever go back to really dating a guy. Maybe I could if there was just that one guy, but the chances of that are highly unlikely. There's just a freedom in it that I've never had in dating among the opposite sex.

Anyway, I partially understand how you feel in this being a very strong, compassionate issue for you. I hope that some day everyone will get over their ignorance and bigotry, no matter where it is.

Come to Canada with me and we can all have a big gay party. cx <3

Also, Cobalt, I wish there were more people like you in my state. ; w ;
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[12:39:44 AM] Sight of the Stars: just be like "SIGHT OF THE STARZ IS MAH BIZNITCH"
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  #57  
Old 10-23-2012, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Cobalt Shadow View Post
I am a chrstian, but my views on this aren't what people assume a Christians is. Okay, so I disagree with homosexuality, but homosexuals are people. We have differing beliefs in whether love is between a man and woman or whether it is more diverse, but that doesn't make me any better than them or vice versa. I am not to judge.

Romans 3:23 (NIV)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Basically that is saying sin is equal. In the eyes of God, me thinking angry thoguths towards a person is as much of a sin as homosexuality.

Matthew 7:3 (NIV)

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

What I am saying is that I don't think any less of a person who is a homosexual. I disagree with their beleifs. me hating a homosexual because of disagreements on beleifs is like me hating a person because they go for a different football team. Heck, one of my best friends is a lesbian. A couple of my christian friends think I should distance myself from her. I tell them I won't. just because I disagree with her sexual orientation, that doesn't mean they are any different to me before they came out of the closet.

In dot point form:
  • Bible says homsexuality is a sin
  • Bible says everyone sins
  • bible says all sins are equal in the eyes of god
  • bible says I should not judge a person for sinning when I am a sinner
  • therefore I won't treat someone who is homosexual any different than i would treat a hetrosexual

I am glad you feel this way. Just going to point out, however, that homosexuality is not a "belief". You do not believe that you are hetero, homo, or bisexual. You just are.
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  #58  
Old 10-23-2012, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

I wasn't saying homosexuality itself is a belief but the belief in whether it is right or wrong. As a Christian a believe it to be wrong when a homosexually would believe it to be good etc. catch my drift :)
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  #59  
Old 10-24-2012, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Cobalt Shadow View Post
I wasn't saying homosexuality itself is a belief but the belief in whether it is right or wrong. As a Christian a believe it to be wrong when a homosexually would believe it to be good etc. catch my drift :)
Hm, I have a hard time understanding how you can hold them accountable for something genetic, but m'kay. As long as you feel that way, and there isn't an underlying animosity towards the sexuality that could jeopardize said position.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:24 AM
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Default Re: Homosexuality Ethically Accepted?

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Originally Posted by Teddiursa of the Sky View Post
Hm, I have a hard time understanding how you can hold them accountable for something genetic, but m'kay. As long as you feel that way, and there isn't an underlying animosity towards the sexuality that could jeopardize said position.
Sure you can. Pedophilia has genetic predisposition and we freely persecute them for it.

The issue, of course, is that religion doesn't come into play if we speak of ethics of homosexuality, so I have no idea why this is being up for discussion in the first place. But what's done is done.

It is a fascinating topic though, the study of Bible and its relevance to homosexuality.
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