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  #31  
Old 01-30-2012, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Ooo the "The Bible was written by God" argument! I love that one!

All the Bible is is circular logic. I can do circular logic too. Watch.

God didn't write the Bible. Why? Because the Bible isn't perfect. Why isn't the Bible perfect? Because it was written by people, who are imperfect. But God wrote the Bible! Therefore God is imperfect! But god can't be imperfect. Therefore god doesn't exist and the Bible is a load of ****!
Sarcasm does tend to make people go on the defensive and back up.
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  #32  
Old 01-30-2012, 06:45 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Sarcasm does tend to make people go on the defensive and back up.
Eh I'm just a sarcastic person. Most tend to look past it, but there is a point there.
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  #33  
Old 01-30-2012, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

It's just that I read about Jessica before. And it makes me livid. Seriously, she has a RIGHT to believe or NOT to believe BY LAW, and BY NATURAL RIGHTS.

Hell there was an ATHEIST CLUB AT MY PRIVATE CATHOLIC HIGH SCHOOL.

Sorry if I'm upset about this, even a little. No, you know what? I have a RIGHT to be pissed off about this. And the fact that that MODERATOR posted that, and therefore dug at atheists AGAIN by acting all, no pun intended, 'holier than thou'. It's wrong.
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  #34  
Old 01-30-2012, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

I apologize Phantom, if I have come off as holier than thou. It was not my intention and if that is what has been perceived, then I apologize for not communicating in a clearer fashion.

And Voices, I apologize to you. I was not saying that you specifically were attacking the faith. I should not have been so vague. I feel you are simply enjoying the debate as it were, in your usual analytical mindset. I do not wish for you to misjudge my words.

I simply wish to see this debate remain courteous.
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  #35  
Old 01-30-2012, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

^ Then why all the fluffed words? Just come in and say to keep it chill? This isn't real life. It's the internet. You don't say anything unless you mean to, otherwise there's this handy 'edit' button.

Translation, that's bull. If you wanted to say that post, that's the kind of post you PM someone. Not post publicly unless you are looking for attention.
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  #36  
Old 01-30-2012, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by HKim View Post
I apologize Phantom, if I have come off as holier than thou. It was not my intention and if that is what has been perceived, then I apologize for not communicating in a clearer fashion.

And Voices, I apologize to you. I was not saying that you specifically were attacking the faith. I should not have been so vague. I feel you are simply enjoying the debate as it were, in your usual analytical mindset. I do not wish for you to misjudge my words.

I simply wish to see this debate remain courteous.
'Tis alright. We cool.

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Originally Posted by Phantom0990 View Post
^ Then why all the fluffed words? Just come in and say to keep it chill? This isn't real life. It's the internet. You don't say anything unless you mean to, otherwise there's this handy 'edit' button.

Translation, that's bull. If you wanted to say that post, that's the kind of post you PM someone. Not post publicly unless you are looking for attention.
I have to agree with you, though I would have said it in a softer way.
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  #37  
Old 01-31-2012, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Phantom0990 View Post
^ Then why all the fluffed words? Just come in and say to keep it chill? This isn't real life. It's the internet. You don't say anything unless you mean to, otherwise there's this handy 'edit' button.

Translation, that's bull. If you wanted to say that post, that's the kind of post you PM someone. Not post publicly unless you are looking for attention.
It's a moderator's job to ensure all discussions remain objective and respectful. It's also not a New Trainer's job to tell a moderator how to do his job. Food for thought.


I'm Non-denominational Christian.

Something that really bothers me is that people often desire a logical explanation of everything in Christianity. Where is God? Why did Jesus die for your sins if he was a God and could kill them all? What was the point of all these events anyway? What's all that nonsense with a dragon and junk in the Bible? What about evolution? How is the Bible symbolic? Eh, truth is, most Christians can't honestly and accurately answer all of those kind of questions. A keystone principle in Christianity is the faith-based dedication to a set of morals and values. It's something we've come to respect and at least attempt to emulate in our daily lives. Everyone has to believe in the invisible, even if it’s simply air or wind. But just because someone is a Christian doesn’t mean that they know, or are even required to know, the answer to every questionable aspect of the religion.

Ministers are often seen as corrupt too. Some are sexist, and others even seem a little cheesy in how they give their messages. Then you get people who point at that and say it's just silly. I agree. I also believe that it is wholly impossible to form your opinion on something as sizable as a religion based solely on one, two, or even a few occurrences. That minister doesn't represent the vast majority of Christians, nor does he represent the values of Christianity. It just seems silly to me when someone goes to one church, or one event, doesn't like it, and instantly denounces it forever. The church I grew up attending was great, because the ministers were so level-headed and just had a joy for life. There was no pretending to be fake, acting silly on television, or hatred for any faction of people.

With religion aside, I would rather follow a set of morals that uphold humanity than a lifestyle that disgraces it. Well that begs the question of how some Christians view homosexuality, abortion, and other social issues. All of that nonsense is technical in my opinion, and varies from person to person, sometimes almost completely regardless of religion. People can think and believe whatever they want, and no one has the right to disturb that privilege. The problems start coming when people attempt to start imposing their beliefs on others in attempts to force them to submit to a certain lifestyle. For example, Christianity does not approve of homosexuality, and I agree with this. However, I also believe that it's far outside of my power to attempt to get rid of homosexuals or purge them of their sexual orientation. Nor would I ever have the audacity or energy to waste my time even trying. They're free to do what they want, and my opinion of someone doesn't change because they have some quality or some condition that's unapproved by Christianity. The judging is for God. One teaching that not many people know is that we are advised to hate the sin, and not the sinner. Then you wonder about the many ways people can become homosexual. Doesn’t matter to me. Again, it doesn’t change my opinion of the person or make me wish the worst for them.

It all comes down to faith for my Christian beliefs. And you could argue that faith is just a lousy attempt to justify and answer all of the loopholes and problems with Christianity, but then I think you've missed the point of the religion and are very welcome to respectfully hold your own beliefs despite continuous disagreements.
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  #38  
Old 01-31-2012, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Exon Auxus View Post


It's a moderator's job to ensure all discussions remain objective and respectful. It's also not a New Trainer's job to tell a moderator how to do his job. Food for thought.


I'm Non-denominational Christian.

Something that really bothers me is that people often desire a logical explanation of everything in Christianity. Where is God? Why did Jesus die for your sins if he was a God and could kill them all? What was the point of all these events anyway? What's all that nonsense with a dragon and junk in the Bible? What about evolution? How is the Bible symbolic? Eh, truth is, most Christians can't honestly and accurately answer all of those kind of questions. A keystone principle in Christianity is the faith-based dedication to a set of morals and values. It's something we've come to respect and at least attempt to emulate in our daily lives. Everyone has to believe in the invisible, even if it’s simply air or wind. But just because someone is a Christian doesn’t mean that they know, or are even required to know, the answer to every questionable aspect of the religion.

Ministers are often seen as corrupt too. Some are sexist, and others even seem a little cheesy in how they give their messages. Then you get people who point at that and say it's just silly. I agree. I also believe that it is wholly impossible to form your opinion on something as sizable as a religion based solely on one, two, or even a few occurrences. That minister doesn't represent the vast majority of Christians, nor does he represent the values of Christianity. It just seems silly to me when someone goes to one church, or one event, doesn't like it, and instantly denounces it forever. The church I grew up attending was great, because the ministers were so level-headed and just had a joy for life. There was no pretending to be fake, acting silly on television, or hatred for any faction of people.

With religion aside, I would rather follow a set of morals that uphold humanity than a lifestyle that disgraces it. Well that begs the question of how some Christians view homosexuality, abortion, and other social issues. All of that nonsense is technical in my opinion, and varies from person to person, sometimes almost completely regardless of religion. People can think and believe whatever they want, and no one has the right to disturb that privilege. The problems start coming when people attempt to start imposing their beliefs on others in attempts to force them to submit to a certain lifestyle. For example, Christianity does not approve of homosexuality, and I agree with this. However, I also believe that it's far outside of my power to attempt to get rid of homosexuals or purge them of their sexual orientation. Nor would I ever have the audacity or energy to waste my time even trying. They're free to do what they want, and my opinion of someone doesn't change because they have some quality or some condition that's unapproved by Christianity. The judging is for God. One teaching that not many people know is that we are advised to hate the sin, and not the sinner. Then you wonder about the many ways people can become homosexual. Doesn’t matter to me. Again, it doesn’t change my opinion of the person or make me wish the worst for them.

It all comes down to faith for my Christian beliefs. And you could argue that faith is just a lousy attempt to justify and answer all of the loopholes and problems with Christianity, but then I think you've missed the point of the religion and are very welcome to respectfully hold your own beliefs despite continuous disagreements.
Faith isn't a lousy attempt to justify your beliefs. It is a real thing, faith is. But faith in the unprovable and the completely illogical is ridiculous.

But I am not here to argue the existence of God. I am here to point out that religion justifies any violent act or threat, and it has been observed in the passed. I realize that times change, but it still does not prove me wrong. While Christianity may not be as violent as it was before, it is obvious to see that any religion is a double-edged blade.

It may offer you comfort and provide, in your mind, the most logical explanation as to how things work and how we got here, but at what cost? Humanity's scientific, technological, and social growth has been continuously slowed by the very religion you believe in. Millions upon millions of people have died for this thing called faith.

I suspect you would vote against homosexual marriage then? The U.S is so very behind in a lot of things that concern ethics. The very continent that your religion really took power in is now far more secular than your country has ever been.

You want to know something scary about your religion? Seventy eight percent of the U.S population is Christian. This includes Catholics, Evangelical Protestant, Mainline Protestants, Mormonism, Eastern Orthodox, and Nondenominational. Forty seven percent of those Christians believe the world is 6,000-10,000 years old. Forty seven percent believe that the book of Genesis really took place, literally. Forty seven percent believe that you can literally be possessed by demons. Forty seven percent think that anybody who doesn't believe in not only their religion, but their denomination is going to hell. Forty seven percent of Christians in the world's technological superpower believe that talking snakes are real. Forty seven percent believe that condoms are unreliable and evil. Forty seven percent scream for war.

Do you get it? Religion is a very scary weapon, no matter who wields it. I have no problem with you believing in a deity. Sometimes, because of my Christian programming, I find myself asking the sky for something. The only difference between you and I is that I am not ignorant to the fact that religion is an outdated, corrupted, vile poison in modern society. Deists, thumbs up. Theists, ohhh you theists. Supporting those who kill, fight, and scream. Even if it is unknowingly done.

I don't have faith that wind is there. I know wind is there. We can observe it, feel its effects, and explain why it happens. You, however, have faith that a deity exists despite the fact that you cannot observe it, feel any of its effects (that "feeling" of god has been explained through psychology), or explain how it got there or why it does what it supposedly does.
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  #39  
Old 01-31-2012, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Faith isn't a lousy attempt to justify your beliefs. It is a real thing, faith is. But faith in the unprovable and the completely illogical is ridiculous.

But I am not here to argue the existence of God. I am here to point out that religion justifies any violent act or threat, and it has been observed in the passed. I realize that times change, but it still does not prove me wrong. While Christianity may not be as violent as it was before, it is obvious to see that any religion is a double-edged blade.

It may offer you comfort and provide, in your mind, the most logical explanation as to how things work and how we got here, but at what cost? Humanity's scientific, technological, and social growth has been continuously slowed by the very religion you believe in. Millions upon millions of people have died for this thing called faith.

I suspect you would vote against homosexual marriage then? The U.S is so very behind in a lot of things that concern ethics. The very continent that your religion really took power in is now far more secular than your country has ever been.

You want to know something scary about your religion? Seventy eight percent of the U.S population is Christian. This includes Catholics, Evangelical Protestant, Mainline Protestants, Mormonism, Eastern Orthodox, and Nondenominational. Forty seven percent of those Christians believe the world is 6,000-10,000 years old. Forty seven percent believe that the book of Genesis really took place, literally. Forty seven percent believe that you can literally be possessed by demons. Forty seven percent think that anybody who doesn't believe in not only their religion, but their denomination is going to hell. Forty seven percent of Christians in the world's technological superpower believe that talking snakes are real. Forty seven percent believe that condoms are unreliable and evil. Forty seven percent scream for war.

Do you get it? Religion is a very scary weapon, no matter who wields it. I have no problem with you believing in a deity. Sometimes, because of my Christian programming, I find myself asking the sky for something. The only difference between you and I is that I am not ignorant to the fact that religion is an outdated, corrupted, vile poison in modern society. Deists, thumbs up. Theists, ohhh you theists. Supporting those who kill, fight, and scream. Even if it is unknowingly done.

I don't have faith that wind is there. I know wind is there. We can observe it, feel its effects, and explain why it happens. You, however, have faith that a deity exists despite the fact that you cannot observe it, feel any of its effects (that "feeling" of god has been explained through psychology), or explain how it got there or why it does what it supposedly does.

What is this?

That post was my opinion on Christianity and arguing between religions. Didn't say anything about violence or war, and I can't even see what you're trying to argue with that. It looks like you're arguing some nebulous point purely for the sake of arguing. Are you trying to tell me I'm wrong to believe in Christianity because violence has arrived from it in the past? If you are, then the argument's flaw is readily obvious. It's by this thought process that so many people had flawed and skewed ideas about Muslims after 9/11. You have allowed the acts of certain people in the past to seep into your mind and tamper with your opinions on the religion as a whole - that is what's ridiculous, and it'll easily offend massive amounts of people.

When a Christian commits an act of violence, whether he believed it was because the teaching wanted him to or not, it doesn't mean that Christianity is a model for murder. You must understand that every person's individual act is not always governed by the accurate teachings of any religion. Many people commit violent acts because of the way they were raised, things they saw in their life, or just how they have come to think. In most of these scenarios, the religion has almost no relation to the violent act. And if the person claims it does, it doesn't mean that they're correct.

So no, I don't understand a thing you're arguing, or why. This is a statement of my opinion, and I'm afraid that useless statistics or common, generic attacks on the religion have no hope to ever change that.
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  #40  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Exon Auxus View Post



What is this?

That post was my opinion on Christianity and arguing between religions. Didn't say anything about violence or war, and I can't even see what you're trying to argue with that. It looks like you're arguing some nebulous point purely for the sake of arguing. Are you trying to tell me I'm wrong to believe in Christianity because violence has arrived from it in the past? If you are, then the argument's flaw is readily obvious. It's by this thought process that so many people had flawed and skewed ideas about Muslims after 9/11. You have allowed the acts of certain people in the past to seep into your mind and tamper with your opinions on the religion as a whole - that is what's ridiculous, and it'll easily offend massive amounts of people.

When a Christian commits an act of violence, whether he believed it was because the teaching wanted him to or not, it doesn't mean that Christianity is a model for murder. You must understand that every person's individual act is not always governed by the accurate teachings of any religion. Many people commit violent acts because of the way they were raised, things they saw in their life, or just how they have come to think. In most of these scenarios, the religion has almost no relation to the violent act. And if the person claims it does, it doesn't mean that they're correct.

So no, I don't understand a thing you're arguing, or why. This is a statement of my opinion, and I'm afraid that useless statistics or common, generic attacks on the religion have no hope to ever change that.
I thoroughly encourage you to read this book. Or this book. Or this.

If you think these are attacks, you are mistaken.

Must I remind you of the Thirty Years War, Crusades, Protestant-Catholic conflicts, Charlemagne, persecution of Alan Turing, Witch Hunts/Burnings, the murdering of homosexuals, Spanish Inquisition, Child Molestation Scandals, the rejection of gays in the Boy Scouts (an organization owned by Mormons), the repeated violations of the U.S constitution, the KKK, the Catholic-run extermination camps in Croatia, Rwanda Massacres, Chmielnitzki Massacres? I don't think the passage of time pardons the anger or the suspicion against any religion. The more recent behavior of your typical Christian was not always the case, and Christian surges will continue just as they did in the 1800s and the 1950s.

Like I have said before, I do not blame all Christians. I will quote myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I do believe most Christians are genuinely good people. The problem is that you unknowingly support a group that is vocal, violent, and intolerant in modern society.
That does not apply to just Christians, mind you. It applies to every religion and cult on Earth.

My point is this. It annoys and angers me when people deny the fact that their religion is a weapon. Religion has always been violent, still is violent, and will always be violent. While it may not be your specific religion at this moment, it all runs in cycles.
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  #41  
Old 02-01-2012, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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I thoroughly encourage you to read this book. Or this book. Or this.

If you think these are attacks, you are mistaken.

Must I remind you of the Thirty Years War, Crusades, Protestant-Catholic conflicts, Charlemagne, persecution of Alan Turing, Witch Hunts/Burnings, the murdering of homosexuals, Spanish Inquisition, Child Molestation Scandals, the rejection of gays in the Boy Scouts (an organization owned by Mormons), the repeated violations of the U.S constitution, the KKK, the Catholic-run extermination camps in Croatia, Rwanda Massacres, Chmielnitzki Massacres? I don't think the passage of time pardons the anger or the suspicion against any religion. The more recent behavior of your typical Christian was not always the case, and Christian surges will continue just as they did in the 1800s and the 1950s.

Like I have said before, I do not blame all Christians. I will quote myself.




That does not apply to just Christians, mind you. It applies to every religion and cult on Earth.

My point is this. It annoys and angers me when people deny the fact that their religion is a weapon. Religion has always been violent, still is violent, and will always be violent. While it may not be your specific religion at this moment, it all runs in cycles.
There is a very significant counter to this: this is human behavior. Human beings are as a collective a very chaotic species. If they are put in a group, it is generally the case that a number of those people are going use the group as an excuse to attack (one way or another, with varying intensities) another group. For crying out loud, some people argue about the wine they drink. And it holds that the bigger the group, the more people that are going to use the group. And religions have literally billions of people. It is not the fault of the religion, but the people that participate in it.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by narphoenix View Post
There is a very significant counter to this: this is human behavior. Human beings are as a collective a very chaotic species. If they are put in a group, it is generally the case that a number of those people are going use the group as an excuse to attack (one way or another, with varying intensities) another group. For crying out loud, some people argue about the wine they drink. And it holds that the bigger the group, the more people that are going to use the group. And religions have literally billions of people. It is not the fault of the religion, but the people that participate in it.
Religion encourages such behavior, as observed in the past. Said behavior is often not based and very illogical. Christianity may not be violent right now, but it will be just as it has in the past. More secular ideals involve something that benefits their people. Land grabs, colonization, defense of country against said things, economic growth. Religion has no logical reason for any of its conflicts. I am not saying because of their belief in God (though by definition it is illogical), I am saying it is illogical because they are interpreting an ancient book and following exactly what it says. Just like modern Christians interpret their book as "peace" right now.

"I am killing you because my God says so!"
"You do not believe what I believe, so you shall be persecuted!"
"Because you do not follow my religion, you are amoral and should die!"
"You support abortion, you should be put to death!"


The leaders and followers were responsible for all of those events listed. While the members nowadays are not at fault for it, they support a group, as I have said, that is responsible for it. This is, of course, without knowing.

Have you read the Bible cover to cover?
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  #43  
Old 02-01-2012, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Ooo the "The Bible was written by God" argument! I love that one!

All the Bible is is circular logic. I can do circular logic too. Watch.

God didn't write the Bible. Why? Because the Bible isn't perfect. Why isn't the Bible perfect? Because it was written by people, who are imperfect. But God wrote the Bible! Therefore God is imperfect! But god can't be imperfect. Therefore god doesn't exist and the Bible is a load of ****!

The Bible is imperfect because humans have been trying to "perfect" it for centuries. Chapters have been removed, even entire Gospels.... For example the Gospel of Judas. (look it up)
Books and chapters were never removed from the Bible. Everything was decided before it was put together to best show the messages that God was trying to convey through people.

But I will go through the verses you quoted and point out that what you're trying to say is simply a misunderstanding on behalf of the reader. The Bible is full of symbols and paraphrasing, and it takes a lot of studying to actually get what it's saying because of how it was worded back then. It's also due to the Greek and Latin translations that it comes from.

Quote:
First (Genesis 1:1-2:3)
(Humans were created after the other animals.)

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
(Humans were created before the other animals.)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
The first account is indeed stating that man was created after all the animals were. The second one, however, is just stating that God brought the animals He created already to Adam. I can understand the misunderstanding with how this is worded, but I guarantee you that what I say is true.

Quote:
First Account (Genesis 1:1-2:3)
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Your statement of the first account is flawed, as you forgot to include the verse before it (chapter 1 verse 26), which states, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Basically, that says God created a man, and both genders for the animals. The woman of the human species came later.


Quote:
Moving to the Gospels and later:

John (the Baptist) was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. John 1:43 & 3:22-24
John 1:43 states nothing about John whatsoever ("The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”"). John 3:22-24 is about the baptism of Jesus ("After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison."). Failed argument.

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Can one pray in public? (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer. (1 Timothy 2:8) Paul encouraged public prayer.
1 Timothy 2:8 states, "8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." which says nothing about praying in public, nor do the previous verses (or the ones after it) hint at it. It's basically saying that prayer should be done among men, as they are heads of the household.

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If we decide to do good works, should those works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." 1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that ... they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." This contradicts: Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3-5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men."
I see no contradiction, I see Matthew saying to do good works for the glory of God, not to do good works just for the attention.

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When was Christ crucified? Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour and they crucified him." John 19:14-15 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king…Shall I crucify your king?" John 19:14-15.
You do realize that those books were written by two different people, right? Either one of those accounts could have been hearsay.

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Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13
It looks like you misquoted John 3:13 (No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.). As for the argument you're presenting, I guess I can give you that. I'm not familiar enough with 2 Kings to be able to translate it.

Quote:
Is scripture inspired by God? "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16 compared to: "But I speak this by permission and not by commandment." 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:12 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord" 2 Corinthians.
You failed to quote the verse before 1 Corinthians 7:6, which states, "5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." As for the other verses you pulled from 1 Corinthians 7, Paul is simply giving advice of his own will. Another failed argument.

Quote:
Now who wrote the Bible?

Of the four Gospels in the New Testament; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Three of them, Matthew, Mark and Luke, are called the synoptic gospels. This is because they agree moderately well on the life and teachings of Jesus, although each is a little different from the other two.
I hope you realize that the Bible was written by MANY different people (some books state who the author is), and the four books of the Gospel was written by four different people, each writing from their own perspective of what they saw and heard.

Quote:
There is some evidence to suggest that the genesis creation story (namely the first chapter), existed before the book Genesis did. And was part of a polytheistic religion. Hence the leftover of:

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
The existence of those pronouns refers to God and his angels.

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There is also evidence of lots of civilisations (China, etc.) being older than Noah's flood.
What does this have to do with how the Bible contradicts itself? Explain.

Quote:
NOW: if you were to tell me that when I was Christian that I was a "bad" one, then you are as well. See according to the Catechism it's, get this, YOUR fault that I'm atheist. Yep. You failed in YOUR duty to keep me nice and Christian. Your fault. Dig it? YOURS. Now you have to say that in your next confession.
It's not a Christian's job to "keep someone nice and Christian." It's a Christian's job to spread the Gospel (SPREAD, not shove it down peoples' throats, as in, we're supposed to talk about it and not force it on anyone) and model their lives after Jesus' life and live by the fruits of the spirit.

Quote:
I believe that religion, especially this blind faith, is dangerous. Millions have died in religious conflict, in the name of their respective gods. Isn't killing still killing whether or not it is in the name of a deity? Is it still wrong to believe that killing is bad? Should I walk over to my neighbor who is Muslim and shoot him, and when the police question me I say it was because he was a non believer? It sounds wrong because it is. Yet millions have died in the same conflict for the sake of faith and religion. The Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadores, the Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, Protestants vs. Catholics, Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, the Islamic notion of Jihad, the Jewish Milchemet Mitzvah, the Christian Milites Christi, the Holocaust, the Reconquista, and many more.
I agree, it can get dangerous, but that's because of the extremists that pop up and think that everyone should believe what they believe so the world can be at peace and not have to fight amongst themselves about what the believe. Humans like simplicity. If they don't know about something or if someone's beliefs differ from their own, they get scared, angry, etc., and do something about it.
Also, the Holocaust was just an extermination of the Jews because Hitler had an extreme hatred towards them, despite that he was one himself. As for his reasons why, I've yet to go into them, so don't pin this on me.
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  #44  
Old 02-01-2012, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessu View Post
Books and chapters were never removed from the Bible. Everything was decided before it was put together to best show the messages that God was trying to convey through people.

Actually...


* Psalm 151
* Wisdom of Solomon
* Susanna
* 1 Maccabees
* 2 Maccabees
* 3 Maccabees
* 4 Maccabees
* Sirach
* Baruch
* Tobit
* Bel and the Dragon
* Azariah
* Epistle of Jeremiah
* Prayer of Manasseh
* 4 Ezra OR 2 Esdras
* Judith
* Additions to the Book of Esther
* 1 Esdras

Were all removed from the Protestant Bible in 1769.


But I will go through the verses you quoted and point out that what you're trying to say is simply a misunderstanding on behalf of the reader. The Bible is full of symbols and paraphrasing, and it takes a lot of studying to actually get what it's saying because of how it was worded back then. It's also due to the Greek and Latin translations that it comes from.



The first account is indeed stating that man was created after all the animals were. The second one, however, is just stating that God brought the animals He created already to Adam. I can understand the misunderstanding with how this is worded, but I guarantee you that what I say is true.



Your statement of the first account is flawed, as you forgot to include the verse before it (chapter 1 verse 26), which states, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Basically, that says God created a man, and both genders for the animals. The woman of the human species came later.


This argument is questionable, considering the Old Testament's supposed authors may or may not have even existed. Much of the Old Testament was rewritten during the Babylonian captivity.


John 1:43 states nothing about John whatsoever ("The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”"). John 3:22-24 is about the baptism of Jesus ("After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison."). Failed argument.


1 Timothy 2:8 states, "8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing." which says nothing about praying in public, nor do the previous verses (or the ones after it) hint at it. It's basically saying that prayer should be done among men, as they are heads of the household.


I see no contradiction, I see Matthew saying to do good works for the glory of God, not to do good works just for the attention.


You do realize that those books were written by two different people, right? Either one of those accounts could have been hearsay.

Which suggests that most of the Bible is hearsay. That puts the Bible's validity in a very difficult spot.


It looks like you misquoted John 3:13 (No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.). As for the argument you're presenting, I guess I can give you that. I'm not familiar enough with 2 Kings to be able to translate it.


You failed to quote the verse before 1 Corinthians 7:6, which states, "5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." As for the other verses you pulled from 1 Corinthians 7, Paul is simply giving advice of his own will. Another failed argument.



I hope you realize that the Bible was written by MANY different people (some books state who the author is), and the four books of the Gospel was written by four different people, each writing from their own perspective of what they saw and heard.

Yet strangely enough, it was all written by God. Hm?


It's not a Christian's job to "keep someone nice and Christian." It's a Christian's job to spread the Gospel (SPREAD, not shove it down peoples' throats, as in, we're supposed to talk about it and not force it on anyone) and model their lives after Jesus' life and live by the fruits of the spirit.

You are responsible for you fellow Christians. You are a fellowship that claim to believe in the same thing. Even the Bible implies it.
"Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." (Eph 4:3)



I agree, it can get dangerous, but that's because of the extremists that pop up and think that everyone should believe what they believe so the world can be at peace and not have to fight amongst themselves about what the believe. Humans like simplicity. If they don't know about something or if someone's beliefs differ from their own, they get scared, angry, etc., and do something about it.
Also, the Holocaust was just an extermination of the Jews because Hitler had an extreme hatred towards them, despite that he was one himself. As for his reasons why, I've yet to go into them, so don't pin this on me.
Thank you for at least saying that it is dangerous. Not necessarily just because of extremists, but at least now we are getting somewhere.

I am German. I know all about the Holocaust. Hitler was Roman Catholic, and refers to God in his book, Mein Kampf. The hatred of the Jews stems all the way into the Catholic Inquisition. Jews were despised by Christianity, and many Christians still share that anti-Semitic viewpoint today.
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Last edited by Teddiursa of the Sky; 02-01-2012 at 10:11 PM.
  #45  
Old 02-02-2012, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I thoroughly encourage you to read this book. Or this book. Or this.

If you think these are attacks, you are mistaken.

Must I remind you of the Thirty Years War, Crusades, Protestant-Catholic conflicts, Charlemagne, persecution of Alan Turing, Witch Hunts/Burnings, the murdering of homosexuals, Spanish Inquisition, Child Molestation Scandals, the rejection of gays in the Boy Scouts (an organization owned by Mormons), the repeated violations of the U.S constitution, the KKK, the Catholic-run extermination camps in Croatia, Rwanda Massacres, Chmielnitzki Massacres? I don't think the passage of time pardons the anger or the suspicion against any religion. The more recent behavior of your typical Christian was not always the case, and Christian surges will continue just as they did in the 1800s and the 1950s.

Like I have said before, I do not blame all Christians. I will quote myself.




That does not apply to just Christians, mind you. It applies to every religion and cult on Earth.

My point is this. It annoys and angers me when people deny the fact that their religion is a weapon. Religion has always been violent, still is violent, and will always be violent. While it may not be your specific religion at this moment, it all runs in cycles.
You've dodged an important point. Again, just because someone does something in the name of a religion, doesn't mean that the religion promotes that action. Also the religion isn't the weapon here. It's the gall of the people involved in the act, or the fear of the insubordinates commanded to do so. Moreover, many of these events had little to do with Christianity and were based more on things like establishing reliable trade routes or striking fear into certain factions of people.

I encourage you to take an anthropology class when you grow up and go to college. There you will learn about people.
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Last edited by Exon Auxus; 02-02-2012 at 12:48 PM.
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