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  #16  
Old 01-26-2012, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
I don't think being bad has anything to do with religion at all, people will be people regardless of what religion they practice.
But the argument that Coyote is making is that Islam is by definition a religion that promotes "being bad" as a core principle. But you are right that people just inherently have this sentiment.
  #17  
Old 01-27-2012, 12:50 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

I'm just gonna call it.

Those jerks are trying to make Christians look bad. I'll admit, I'm no saint, but I'm not like that, and so are most other Christians.

Like has been already said here, "Do not judge or you will be judged." Call someone horrible, you're not any better.
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2012, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by UltimateBrawl View Post
I'm just gonna call it.

Those jerks are trying to make Christians look bad. I'll admit, I'm no saint, but I'm not like that, and so are most other Christians.

Like has been already said here, "Do not judge or you will be judged." Call someone horrible, you're not any better.
Your argument only proves that there is a subjectivity to morality.

The Christians commenting were not trying to make other Christians look bad. They were Christian fundamentalists. They believe in the same bunch of novels and books you believe in.
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Your argument only proves that there is a subjectivity to morality.

The Christians commenting were not trying to make other Christians look bad. They were Christian fundamentalists. They believe in the same bunch of novels and books you believe in.
I sincerely doubt that kind of treatment is "fundamental" in any way. And if they did believe the Bible, they would know that Jesus Himself said, very specifically, to "love those who hate you, to bless those who curse you."
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by UltimateBrawl View Post
I'm just gonna call it.

Those jerks are trying to make Christians look bad. I'll admit, I'm no saint, but I'm not like that, and so are most other Christians.

Like has been already said here, "Do not judge or you will be judged." Call someone horrible, you're not any better.
They're not trying to, but more unintentionally doing so. They don't realize that the way they're acting gets heavily publicized by not only themselves, but every other person out there that calls themself a Christian acts acts the complete opposite. It's horrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBrawl View Post
I sincerely doubt that kind of treatment is "fundamental" in any way. And if they did believe the Bible, they would know that Jesus Himself said, very specifically, to "love those who hate you, to bless those who curse you."
Adding on to this, true Christians should model their lives after Jesus and live on the fruits of the spirit. You can tell a real Christian from a fake by the way they act. You can't just believe what John 3:16 sums up and expect to get your ticket into heaven, but you must act the way that Jesus tells us to act (again, fruits of the spirit).
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  #21  
Old 01-27-2012, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Jessu View Post
They're not trying to, but more unintentionally doing so. They don't realize that the way they're acting gets heavily publicized by not only themselves, but every other person out there that calls themself a Christian acts acts the complete opposite. It's horrible.



Adding on to this, true Christians should model their lives after Jesus and live on the fruits of the spirit. You can tell a real Christian from a fake by the way they act. You can't just believe what John 3:16 sums up and expect to get your ticket into heaven, but you must act the way that Jesus tells us to act (again, fruits of the spirit).
This. Just... just this. You, my friend, are correct in every way.
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  #22  
Old 01-27-2012, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by UltimateBrawl View Post
This. Just... just this. You, my friend, are correct in every way.
You fail to see the plain definition of those religious fools?

That is assuming that the Jesus you follow is what the real Jesus was like.

Also, ever read the Book of Thomas?
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  #23  
Old 01-28-2012, 01:15 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
You fail to see the plain definition of those religious fools?

That is assuming that the Jesus you follow is what the real Jesus was like.

Also, ever read the Book of Thomas?
The Jesus WE follow is the Jesus that was told of in the Bible. The Bible was literally written by God working through others. IT IS GOD'S WORD. Also, would God lie about what He Himself was put through? It seems to me that you fail to recognize that God and Jesus are the same Holy One. The Holy Trinity; God the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

Also, forgive me, but can you find a more detailed description? It's a little unclear to me how similar they are to other Christians.
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
You fail to see the plain definition of those religious fools?

That is assuming that the Jesus you follow is what the real Jesus was like.

Also, ever read the Book of Thomas?
Just because someone under the guise of "Christian" shows their ugly side doesn't mean that every other Christian out there is like that. You also forget that there are MANY denominations under that guise, some of which are ridiculous and go as far as worshipping Mary, Jesus' earthly mother, and do all these little rituals and read stuff aloud from a book (this part is because I feel that whatever you need to say to God, it needs to come from the heart, not from preset words in a book).

Oh, another thing, Christianity is not a religion. It's actually a faith and a friendship.

Did I mention faith? That's the one thing we rely on to believe what the Bible tells us what happened, because obviously, we weren't there to see or experience it, so it acts as a history book. So yes, we follow the Jesus that was described throughout the Bible by faith. The Bible itself is "God-breathed", or as UltimateBrawl said, written by God through working in others. There are also several archaeological findings that back some Biblical stories up, like how there's fossil graveyards at the tops of hills or mountains (Great Flood), or there were Biblical scrolls found near the Dead Sea not too long ago that are also the oldest dated scrolls so far, or how there were wooden chips/chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea (Moses and the Hebrews escaping Egypt).
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  #25  
Old 01-28-2012, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

Let's not forget black marks on top of the mountain where Moses received the Ten Commandments. Remember? Lightning struck the mountain constantly while the Commandments were being written.
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  #26  
Old 01-28-2012, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by UltimateBrawl View Post
The Jesus WE follow is the Jesus that was told of in the Bible. The Bible was literally written by God working through others. IT IS GOD'S WORD. Also, would God lie about what He Himself was put through? It seems to me that you fail to recognize that God and Jesus are the same Holy One. The Holy Trinity; God the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

Also, forgive me, but can you find a more detailed description? It's a little unclear to me how similar they are to other Christians.
Did you know the Gospels were written between 40 and 140 CE? There is in no way the actual people you think wrote the books, wrote the books.

As I have said, read the Book of Thomas. Another Gospel so carefully removed from the Bible. This book actually mentions some very unholy things from Jesus Christ.

If it is the word of God, why are there so many contradictions? And why is it that such a perfect being is able to only communicate to us via 2000 year old texts?

The Holy Trinity was conjured up almost 400 years after Jesus' death and has roots in Hinduism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessu View Post
Just because someone under the guise of "Christian" shows their ugly side doesn't mean that every other Christian out there is like that. You also forget that there are MANY denominations under that guise, some of which are ridiculous and go as far as worshipping Mary, Jesus' earthly mother, and do all these little rituals and read stuff aloud from a book (this part is because I feel that whatever you need to say to God, it needs to come from the heart, not from preset words in a book).

Oh, another thing, Christianity is not a religion. It's actually a faith and a friendship.

Did I mention faith? That's the one thing we rely on to believe what the Bible tells us what happened, because obviously, we weren't there to see or experience it, so it acts as a history book. So yes, we follow the Jesus that was described throughout the Bible by faith. The Bible itself is "God-breathed", or as UltimateBrawl said, written by God through working in others. There are also several archaeological findings that back some Biblical stories up, like how there's fossil graveyards at the tops of hills or mountains (Great Flood), or there were Biblical scrolls found near the Dead Sea not too long ago that are also the oldest dated scrolls so far, or how there were wooden chips/chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea (Moses and the Hebrews escaping Egypt).
If you read a few posts above, I already have an answer for that.

I know full well Christianity is not a specific religion. It is a blanket term for all who believe in Jesus Christ.

Faith, by definition, is illogical and nonsensical. Science and Historical accounts have shredded the Bible and it's validity as to "what really happened".

There is no historical or geological account of the "Great Flood" or of said "Red Sea Parting". First of all, a flood did happen. It was not world-wide. If you have educated yourself in any other religious text, you'd know the Mahabharata speaks of a similar event with a ship banking itself on a mountain just above the city of Geneva. Second of all, the supposed chariot pieces discovered at the bottom of the water turned out to be coral, that theory was debunked in the late 1990s. Even if the coral pieces were chariot parts, water formations move all the time, and said events had over 4000 years to transpire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBrawl View Post
Let's not forget black marks on top of the mountain where Moses received the Ten Commandments. Remember? Lightning struck the mountain constantly while the Commandments were being written.
Oh my word. I will tell you what I told Wile E Coyote. Watch the documentary Religulous.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

Link 5

Link 6
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  #27  
Old 01-30-2012, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

Ooo the "The Bible was written by God" argument! I love that one!

All the Bible is is circular logic. I can do circular logic too. Watch.

God didn't write the Bible. Why? Because the Bible isn't perfect. Why isn't the Bible perfect? Because it was written by people, who are imperfect. But God wrote the Bible! Therefore God is imperfect! But god can't be imperfect. Therefore god doesn't exist and the Bible is a load of ****!

The Bible is imperfect because humans have been trying to "perfect" it for centuries. Chapters have been removed, even entire Gospels.... For example the Gospel of Judas. (look it up)

In fact certain points contradict each other for example:

There are two versions of the creation story, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

First (Genesis 1:1-2:3)
(Humans were created after the other animals.)

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
(Humans were created before the other animals.)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

First Account (Genesis 1:1-2:3)
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Moving to the Gospels and later:

John (the Baptist) was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. John 1:43 & 3:22-24

Can one pray in public? (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer. (1 Timothy 2:8) Paul encouraged public prayer.

If we decide to do good works, should those works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." 1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that ... they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." This contradicts: Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3-5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men."

When was Christ crucified? Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour and they crucified him." John 19:14-15 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king…Shall I crucify your king?" John 19:14-15.

Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13

Is scripture inspired by God? "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16 compared to: "But I speak this by permission and not by commandment." 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:12 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord" 2 Corinthians.

The Bible contradicts itself, therefore it is not perfect. Edit something a thousand times and it will never have the same meaning. There are THOUSANDS of versions of the Bible, all claiming by fervent believers that THEIR version is correct.

Now who wrote the Bible?

Of the four Gospels in the New Testament; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Three of them, Matthew, Mark and Luke, are called the synoptic gospels. This is because they agree moderately well on the life and teachings of Jesus, although each is a little different from the other two.

The Gospel of John is a different matter. Some scholars believe that John was originally written in a Gnostic community and was subsequently edited to remove some of the more clearly Gnostic material, although the gospel still has similarities with the Gnostic ways.

John differs from the synoptic Gospels because it is not just listing events in the life of Jesus. John is more thematic in nature and less chronological, and provides more theological discourse on the person and work of Christ.

The various dialects and word usage used in the law books suggest multiple sources and revisionism. It's thought that Yahweh (the god of the bible, also known as 'The God of Abraham') was part of polytheistic myths where different countries had different gods. Yahweh was the god of war and became Israel's god. And then they were revised when Deuteronomy (the last of the Torah) came about to make it monotheistic.

Which explains the massive amount of holy wars in the law books, the fact that there are various phrases indicating multiple gods. Why Yahweh/Moses were so against worshipping of other gods and why Yahweh is consistently referred to as 'the LORD your God'.

Similar things to the Jesus story had been done again and again before Jesus and it's thought that it was reused by the authors of the Gospels. Virgin births, three day resurrections, saviours and similar phrases like "Horus the Child" come from the Egyptian myths about Horus.

There is some evidence to suggest that the genesis creation story (namely the first chapter), existed before the book Genesis did. And was part of a polytheistic religion. Hence the leftover of:

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

There is also evidence of lots of civilisations (China, etc.) being older than Noah's flood.

NOW: if you were to tell me that when I was Christian that I was a "bad" one, then you are as well. See according to the Catechism it's, get this, YOUR fault that I'm atheist. Yep. You failed in YOUR duty to keep me nice and Christian. Your fault. Dig it? YOURS. Now you have to say that in your next confession.

CCC 2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

In fact I was a very devout Christian. Thank you very much. Then on got hit in the head with a logic stick.

We are all atheists in respects to Zeus and Thor. Their faith that their people had for deities were as strong as any faith or belief now with the God of Abraham. How could people with such faith toss away this faith and instead worship another? Proof that faith is fleeting.

I believe that religion, especially this blind faith, is dangerous. Millions have died in religious conflict, in the name of their respective gods. Isn't killing still killing whether or not it is in the name of a deity? Is it still wrong to believe that killing is bad? Should I walk over to my neighbor who is Muslim and shoot him, and when the police question me I say it was because he was a non believer? It sounds wrong because it is. Yet millions have died in the same conflict for the sake of faith and religion. The Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadores, the Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, Protestants vs. Catholics, Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, the Islamic notion of Jihad, the Jewish Milchemet Mitzvah, the Christian Milites Christi, the Holocaust, the Reconquista, and many more.

There have been 123 major wars considered to be purely religious, 66 of them involving Islam. That doesn't include the numerous conflicts, such as Terrorism and the issues between the warring tribes in Iraq, or even the squabbles between warring tribes in Africa.

'Loving' God my ass.
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2012, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

I would like to commend my fellow Christians here for having the courage to post in this thread. It is very difficult at times for the faithful to stand up for Godly principles in an increasingly secular world. It is difficult to talk with our neighbors when sometimes it seems we are attacked for something we consider quite close to our heart.

And the heart has always been a fragile thing.

Discussion, I believe, is good. One cannot spread the faith by remaining silent. At the same time, I do not believe that it is our duty to stand on a soap box and shout down the world. We must strive, through our actions, to demonstrate what is truly in our hearts.

As has been stated, I do believe there is such a thing as a false Christian. That people often say they are Christian, yet act in ways that do not match the teachings of Jesus. And I think it's pretty easy to identify many moments in history where this has been the case.

I also believe that Christians do regrettably commit sins. We are not perfect beings and, like many, engage in unworthy activities. It is the reason why we seek the salvation of Jesus for he has forgiven us when no one else could. Only through him can we be washed anew. And it is upon his teachings that we strive to correct the mistakes we have made. We will stumble. We are human. But it is our desire to stumble less often, and hopefully, with less severity.

My friend, I am sorry if you have experienced hardship and suffering at the hands of those who have called themselves Christians. I apologize for the actions that have brought you darkness. If you desire, feel free to yell at me, release your frustrations upon me, condemn me. For if my brother has harmed you, I only wish that the pain be removed from your heart.

To my fellow brothers and sisters. I want to thank you for remaining calm here and to encourage you to continue to act in a matter befitting our Lord God. I think doing so can be challenging at times. But I want to let you know that you're not alone. That there are others of the faith in this forum, and that we are here whenever you need us.

To everyone, I simply ask that should we desire to continue this discussion, we act not on the passions of hatred and anger. That we strive to retain civility and kindness. And that we respect the opinions and beliefs of those around us. After all, we are all members of the same community.
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  #29  
Old 01-30-2012, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

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Originally Posted by HKim View Post
I would like to commend my fellow Christians here for having the courage to post in this thread. It is very difficult at times for the faithful to stand up for Godly principles in an increasingly secular world. It is difficult to talk with our neighbors when sometimes it seems we are attacked for something we consider quite close to our heart.

And the heart has always been a fragile thing.

Discussion, I believe, is good. One cannot spread the faith by remaining silent. At the same time, I do not believe that it is our duty to stand on a soap box and shout down the world. We must strive, through our actions, to demonstrate what is truly in our hearts.

As has been stated, I do believe there is such a thing as a false Christian. That people often say they are Christian, yet act in ways that do not match the teachings of Jesus. And I think it's pretty easy to identify many moments in history where this has been the case.

I also believe that Christians do regrettably commit sins. We are not perfect beings and, like many, engage in unworthy activities. It is the reason why we seek the salvation of Jesus for he has forgiven us when no one else could. Only through him can we be washed anew. And it is upon his teachings that we strive to correct the mistakes we have made. We will stumble. We are human. But it is our desire to stumble less often, and hopefully, with less severity.

My friend, I am sorry if you have experienced hardship and suffering at the hands of those who have called themselves Christians. I apologize for the actions that have brought you darkness. If you desire, feel free to yell at me, release your frustrations upon me, condemn me. For if my brother has harmed you, I only wish that the pain be removed from your heart.

To my fellow brothers and sisters. I want to thank you for remaining calm here and to encourage you to continue to act in a matter befitting our Lord God. I think doing so can be challenging at times. But I want to let you know that you're not alone. That there are others of the faith in this forum, and that we are here whenever you need us.

To everyone, I simply ask that should we desire to continue this discussion, we act not on the passions of hatred and anger. That we strive to retain civility and kindness. And that we respect the opinions and beliefs of those around us. After all, we are all members of the same community.
I have not acted on hatred or anger. I have provided evidence.

Oh, and you as Christians are attacked? Why is it that there is only a 9-12% minority of anyone who just claims that there is no god (this includes Agnostics, Secularists, Atheists, Buddhists, and New Age)? It is Secularism that takes the flack, at least in the U.S and South America. I'd like to remind you that 60 years ago, me and any other non-believer would have been branded a Communist and therefore being condemned to prison or death.
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Old 01-30-2012, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I have not acted on hatred or anger. I have provided evidence.

Oh, and you as Christians are attacked? Why is it that there is only a 9-12% minority of anyone who just claims that there is no god (this includes Agnostics, Secularists, Atheists, Buddhists, and New Age)? It is Secularism that takes the flack, at least in the U.S and South America. I'd like to remind you that 60 years ago, me and any other non-believer would have been branded a Communist and therefore being condemned to prison or death.
They're backing up, it means they have no response. Merked. JK

Please, I wasn't insulting Christianity, I was pointing out facts. Nothing I said was untrue. This is a common debate, it's why this question is in this area of the forums, correct? If you're insulted by a healthy debate then stay out of the debating room I say. Like I said many times, I spent half my damn life in a church muttering prayers, lighting candles, and wearing a dress and swinging incense in people's faces, taking tests on memorizing prayers and the like. Go ahead test me, ask me a prayer or religious question, bet I can answer it. Cause that's all I did, retell facts.

If you want I can start stating facts for other religions/practices.
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