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  #16  
Old 11-30-2011, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
And when has congress ever cared about free speech? May I remind you of the Patriot Act?
The Patriot Act doesn't infringe on free speech, it infringes on protection against unlawful search and seizure. Get your amendments right.
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2011, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

Actually, the "Destroying Terrorism Act" is part of the Patriot Act, which arguably limited free speech against the Western world.

I think you mean it infringes on privacy, and you are correct.
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2011, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Actually, the "Destroying Terrorism Act" is part of the Patriot Act, which arguably limited free speech against the Western world.

I think you mean it infringes on privacy, and you are correct.
Constitutional right to privacy is a contentious issue in US politics, hence I went for the specific, strict-text based one.

As for the "Destroying Terrorism Act" part, I couldn't find anything about that on the Google, but if it is what I think it is, then I'll state for the record that calls for, incitement of and promotion of violence are not and have never been considered protected speech, at least in the United States.
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2011, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

I think it'll pass--I hate to sound like a cynic, but I firmly believe the general public (which includes congress) really is this stupid. The Constitution is just a piece of paper most of the American public hasn't even read anymore.

Either way, the campaign to censor parts of the internet to certain parties online is going to be logistically ridiculous. Like one of y'all said, "I wonder what Anonymous will say about this." I can easily see them backlashing against some bigwigs if this goes down. Getting the system running would be Hell, but protecting it against the hackers is another monster all together. But unless somebody or some group of people has been planning to censor zones of the internet to a certain public already, they'll probably be in over their heads.

If they don't support it, and don't plan to support it--I'm proud of Sega for not being Nazis. t3hw007! I'm not surprised about Sony agreeing to this, though. The CEO is an old imperialist.

Either way, I think something will probably go down in their favor. Then the bill will pass. Then we'll see the internet bubble pop for a second time. All the sites fail, except eBaum'sWorld, because I hate eBaum's; and if I hate it, it probably has a good chance of surviving. The economy will fail, sending certain agricultural areas to lose revenue, falling society into a famine. Which then leads to disease, to disease mutations... to zombie virus... boom. Z-Day, we're all dead meat. Good job Miyamoto. Your company started the zombie apocalypse. Was that really worth the protection for Nintendogs?

Either way--the way I look at it. I think it'll pass at some point in the next year or two. It really depends on the lobbyists and current events.
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2011, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
Constitutional right to privacy is a contentious issue in US politics, hence I went for the specific, strict-text based one.

As for the "Destroying Terrorism Act" part, I couldn't find anything about that on the Google, but if it is what I think it is, then I'll state for the record that calls for, incitement of and promotion of violence are not and have never been considered protected speech, at least in the United States.
It depends on what you call terrorism.
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  #21  
Old 12-01-2011, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

Given Congress's current approval rating, I doubt they will attempt anything radical that's not economy-related.
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  #22  
Old 12-01-2011, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
It depends on what you call terrorism.
"...the term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents." -United States Code.
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  #23  
Old 12-01-2011, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

Agreed completely, but as I said, it is free speech to say something like "Death to America" just as it is to burn the U.S flag or put flames to the Qur'an.
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  #24  
Old 12-01-2011, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

Not to rain on the parade here, but has anyone here actually read up on what the law entails? This bill is actually designed to be an anti-piracy act. The only websites which are supposed to be effected by this law are those with "primarily
designed or operated for the purpose of, has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed by its operator or another acting in concert with that operator for use in, offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, [...] a violation of section 1201 of title 17, United States Code" (source, Page 25-26). This part of the law, Section 1201, Title 17, merely states that it's illegal to try and circumvent copyrights through technological means (source).

Even though this is just a very small portion of the total bill, and a very conservative interpretation of it, the only thing that this law will enable is for companies to shut down sites that are providing products that must normally be purchased, for free. For example; torrent sites with video game cracks, free mp3 download sites, and similar sites. I highly doubt that sites like Youtube, PE2K, or other legitimate sites will be effected. Even though Youtube does always take down videos that are put up for entertainment purposes only, and therefore are protected by copyright laws.

All in all, I honestly am not against this law being passed, because I know that as long as I don't steal money from people trying to make honest money by providing something that I desire.

That being said, I do see where people are getting nervous. And the principle of corporations being able to wield a legal axe whenever they please also doesn't thrill me, though this small step is well within their rights to do.
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  #25  
Old 12-01-2011, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Agreed completely, but as I said, it is free speech to say something like "Death to America" just as it is to burn the U.S flag or put flames to the Qur'an.
You're right, and to my knowledge there is no part of the Patriot act that forbids that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E Coyote View Post
Not to rain on the parade here, but has anyone here actually read up on what the law entails? This bill is actually designed to be an anti-piracy act. The only websites which are supposed to be effected by this law are those with "primarily
designed or operated for the purpose of, has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed by its operator or another acting in concert with that operator for use in, offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, [...] a violation of section 1201 of title 17, United States Code" (source, Page 25-26). This part of the law, Section 1201, Title 17, merely states that it's illegal to try and circumvent copyrights through technological means (source).

Even though this is just a very small portion of the total bill, and a very conservative interpretation of it, the only thing that this law will enable is for companies to shut down sites that are providing products that must normally be purchased, for free. For example; torrent sites with video game cracks, free mp3 download sites, and similar sites. I highly doubt that sites like Youtube, PE2K, or other legitimate sites will be effected. Even though Youtube does always take down videos that are put up for entertainment purposes only, and therefore are protected by copyright laws.

All in all, I honestly am not against this law being passed, because I know that as long as I don't steal money from people trying to make honest money by providing something that I desire.

That being said, I do see where people are getting nervous. And the principle of corporations being able to wield a legal axe whenever they please also doesn't thrill me, though this small step is well within their rights to do.
My issue isn't this bill itself, although the wording is at points a bit vague and nerve-wracking. My issue is the very concept of the government being able to censor websites at all. The internet isn't rooted on any one nation's sovereign soil, identical in nature to international waters in that no one country can lay claim to it. More importantly, though, it is the pinnacle of human communication, the ultimate forum for the free exchange of information, ideas, concepts, products. The moment a governmental authority gains any control over it, it ceases to be that, and instead becomes what the government allows it to be. And even if there were somehow a scenario where a totally incorruptible, idyllic government which suppressed nothing and harmed no one without intent somehow managed to defy the very core of human nature and come into existence, that still couldn't be allowed to happen. Not to the one bastion of completely free expression still in existence.
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  #26  
Old 12-02-2011, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

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Originally Posted by Lord Fedora View Post
You're right, and to my knowledge there is no part of the Patriot act that forbids that.



My issue isn't this bill itself, although the wording is at points a bit vague and nerve-wracking. My issue is the very concept of the government being able to censor websites at all. The internet isn't rooted on any one nation's sovereign soil, identical in nature to international waters in that no one country can lay claim to it. More importantly, though, it is the pinnacle of human communication, the ultimate forum for the free exchange of information, ideas, concepts, products. The moment a governmental authority gains any control over it, it ceases to be that, and instead becomes what the government allows it to be. And even if there were somehow a scenario where a totally incorruptible, idyllic government which suppressed nothing and harmed no one without intent somehow managed to defy the very core of human nature and come into existence, that still couldn't be allowed to happen. Not to the one bastion of completely free expression still in existence.
^ Pretty much my opinion of the subject. It's overly idealistic, sure, but piracy is hardly the area that the government should be tackling when it comes to the internet.
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  #27  
Old 12-02-2011, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

I completely agree. Not only is this thier territory, but what gives them the right to infringe on my rights? I don't live in the country this might be passed in. So how do we not get a vote? Is the US that corrupt to think they own the internet? And if it does pass, the world's biggest riot will ensue. Not to mention that this will make the internet less safe, and that it'll take good-natured sites down for no reason. If it's copyrighted, it's gone. Fanfiction, forget about it.
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  #28  
Old 12-02-2011, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

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Originally Posted by Max0596 View Post
I completely agree. Not only is this thier territory, but what gives them the right to infringe on my rights? I don't live in the country this might be passed in. So how do we not get a vote? Is the US that corrupt to think they own the internet? And if it does pass, the world's biggest riot will ensue. Not to mention that this will make the internet less safe, and that it'll take good-natured sites down for no reason. If it's copyrighted, it's gone. Fanfiction, forget about it.
I'm in the same boat as Max. If this bill is passed, it will no doubt affect us as well, and yet, we have NO say. It is, simply put, unfair that something this big is being considered without giving international users a chance to input their opinion. Sad, just sad. We have just as much right to... ugh! I digress on this point, for this is turning into a rant.

It's really late here, so I apologise if I'm not making much sense anymore, but I couldn't resist posting here any longer. But really, this is a slippery slope. If they get this passed, will they stop here? Not likely. What would come next? As people get de-sensitised to the idea of internet control, the government and corporations will only go further and further until this media becomes the next television. A few rich guys and maybe one federal entity controlling nearly everything we are allowed to access.

Gone will be the days of watching movie reviews or walkthroughs on Youtube. Reading stories on Fanfiction, viewing fan art on DeviantArt? Nothing but memories! Maybe even forums such as this would be cut. All of it wouldn't happen now, but watch, give it time...

Not even going to start on the material that the government and corporations don't, simply put, like.

I think this is probably a re-hash of what Lord Fedora said, but even so, it's something worth considering...
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  #29  
Old 12-02-2011, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

In response to the "no nation owns the internet", again, this is clearly addressed in the bill. The corporations will only be able to effect sites which are illegally distributing US Copyright material. Other countries will only have to comply if they are hosting US Copyrighted material, which is frankly already the case with Youtube in other regions. For example, many high quality music videos on Youtube get blocked from German visitors because the local music copyright industry, GEMA, hasn't purchased the rights to play certain US Copyrighted songs within Germany.

Again, reading Fanfictions and browsing Fanart on Deviant aren't the targets of this bill. Many corporations actually support Fanfictions and Fan Art as a type of free publicity. Also, since most Fanfictioners and Deviant artists aren't making money off of their work, and are applying their own new interpretation to a currently existing idea, these are actually protected by Copyright Law under the term of Fair Use. PE2K probably won't be shut down either. I remember when the Gen V leaks came out, and several pokemon related sites were served a cease and desist letter from the North American division of Nintendo (I think. It was either Nintendo NA, or Game Freak NA. One of the head honchos.) It was well within their rights to do so, and they said they had no problem with fansites as long as they were willing to cooperate with Nintendo.
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  #30  
Old 12-02-2011, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: U.S destroying free speech?

In response to the "no nation owns the internet", again, this is clearly addressed in the bill. The corporations will only be able to effect sites which are illegally distributing US Copyright material. Other countries will only have to comply if they are hosting US Copyrighted material, which is frankly already the case with Youtube in other regions. For example, many high quality music videos on Youtube get blocked from German visitors because the local music copyright industry, GEMA, hasn't purchased the rights to play certain US Copyrighted songs within Germany.

Again, reading Fanfictions and browsing Fanart on Deviant aren't the targets of this bill. Many corporations actually support Fanfictions and Fan Art as a type of free publicity. Also, since most Fanfictioners and Deviant artists aren't making money off of their work, and are applying their own new interpretation to a currently existing idea, these are actually protected by Copyright Law under the term of Fair Use. PE2K probably won't be shut down either. I remember when the Gen V leaks came out, and several pokemon related sites were served a cease and desist letter from the North American division of Nintendo (I think. It was either Nintendo NA, or Game Freak NA. One of the head honchos.) It was well within their rights to do so, and they said they had no problem with fansites as long as they were willing to cooperate with Nintendo.
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