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  #16  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Terrible reason to believe in God. It's like saying that if your parents were Satanists, you'd do so as well just because you're brought up that way. It doesn't matter what your parents think in the matters of religion: you have to find your own reasons. Only then are you actually intellectually capable of actually holding discussion about religion.
Not a terrible reason. One can be raised to be an Atheist, and looking by your logic, that is a terrible thing. When I first became Agnostic, I thought my parents attempted to brainwash me into becoming Catholic when I was little, and that is what it is. But, I also realized anyone with an agenda can do that, so, Atheists can be quite guilty of it too.

Intellectually capable? This person seems to be, despite being taught at an early age to believe in God. Want to know why? The person is questioning. That is a brilliant thing, because despite the way you are looking at it, this person is not a mindless follower of Christ.


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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
You should learn about evolution before making a comment like this, since this is a marvelous display of the Dunning Kruger effect.
I do agree with this, but instead of acting like a jerk about it, explain the theory (and subsequent fact, until proven otherwise).

The Big Bang theory is much more complex, and has nothing to do with two rocks smacking together. It has to do with, essentially, an atomic explosion occurring, causing matter to fly all over the place. Now, keep in mind, matter makes up everything. There are different types of matter, Dark Matter, Anti Matter, Red Matter, and, well, your regular Matter. Despite the point, the explosion was theoretically caused by the first two atoms. Now, keep in mind, Albert Einstein was completely false when it came to actual Quantum Physics. Matter can be created or destroyed, but at different levels. Until proven otherwise, the only thing that cannot be created or destroyed is energy itself. Different subject entirely, but I digress.

The explosion opened up pathways for all sorts of different materials, and as you know (hopefully), the periodic table displays only the materials in our remote area (there may be more). And yes, chance is real. Statistics states that. Of course, chance does vary depending on math. And as it was very unlikely that the certain chemical process happened to give life, it is certainly not impossible.

There are several theories on how life arrived, not how it was created. We all know how it was created. How it arrived is a different matter. The Pan Spermia theory tends to be the most favored by the great thinkers such as Stephen Hawking. The Pan Spermia theory states that asteroids already baring the microscopic life impacted on our newly formed planet. If the same has happened here however, you also have to consider the possibility of life on other planets. And no, not aliens, but rather, creatures simply inhabiting other planets. They may look similar or totally different, depending how they adapted. Adapted.

Key word there. Evolution teaches nothing less, and nothing more. Evolution simply teaches that living things, such as us, develop over time. Did you know that humans existed well before the time of God? Not necessarily before his existence, but well before we knew of him supposedly. That shows that we did not need his light to evolve into the thinking of a god. Several different areas around the world developed almost the same beliefs. The sun being the giver of life, and there being other gods or demigods in charge of other places.

Did you know Christianity would have been TOTALLY different had the Greeks and Romans never influenced it? Arch angels like Michael and Gabriel are both based off different Greek demigods. Which is plainly shows that religion evolves overtime. How does it do this? Either two possible answers. God evolves, or our minds do. Of course, if God evolves, we can safely assume he is a far different God than what most Christians think. If it is our minds evolving, we can safely say that there is no God influencing that specific belief. And since every religion changes, adapts, and evolves, we can say that God influences no religion. Yet, back to the Big Bang theory. How did the first two atoms come into existence? Not even Hawking has an answer for that. The only thing we can do is either believe God did it and continue to find an answer until it fills up the place for the need of the Maker, or we can say there is no God, and search for an answer that fills of that space. That is also assuming there is no God, which cannot be proven as of yet. Which, of course, makes Agnosticism, logically, the most correct belief.

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
What does it matter if there is one God or multiple gods? Heck, how do you know your religion is the right one? There are hundreds of thousands of religions out there. Every single one of them claim to be the right religion. Heck, some religions don't even have gods.
How do you know your belief is the right one? There are no facts proving God doesn't exist, so you are simply placing your beliefs that there is no such thing. You simply believe it, same as these people believe in a God. The only difference is sometimes Abrahamic religions can be stubborn and aggressive about such things. Of course, you are also being quite aggressive and much of a jerk when this person is only stating his beliefs and opinions. That shows that the religious are not the only ones guilty of such a fault.

Simply put, there may or may not be a God. While science seems to be the only one making any progress in researching natural happenings, there is no evidence to disprove the existence of a Maker either. So, in all fairness, there is no definite answer.
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  #17  
Old 07-18-2011, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Not a terrible reason. One can be raised to be an Atheist, and looking by your logic, that is a terrible thing. When I first became Agnostic, I thought my parents attempted to brainwash me into becoming Catholic when I was little, and that is what it is. But, I also realized anyone with an agenda can do that, so, Atheists can be quite guilty of it too.
Way to miss the point entirely. He's saying that believing anything simply because you were raised to is terrible.



Quote:
Simply put, there may or may not be a God. While science seems to be the only one making any progress in researching natural happenings, there is no evidence to disprove the existence of a Maker either. So, in all fairness, there is no definite answer.
An awful, awful argument that for some reason pro-religious people keep falling back to. There's no evidence that disproves the existence of unicorns, vampires, werewolves, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Raptor Jesus. If you actually believed in your own logic you'd believe in all of those as well, because hey, there's as much lack of evidence for them as there is for God! (if you do happen to believe in all of the above, then I take my statement back, but in that scenario I would have to question how you remain functioning in society)
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  #18  
Old 07-18-2011, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Not a terrible reason. One can be raised to be an Atheist, and looking by your logic, that is a terrible thing. When I first became Agnostic, I thought my parents attempted to brainwash me into becoming Catholic when I was little, and that is what it is. But, I also realized anyone with an agenda can do that, so, Atheists can be quite guilty of it too.

Intellectually capable? This person seems to be, despite being taught at an early age to believe in God. Want to know why? The person is questioning. That is a brilliant thing, because despite the way you are looking at it, this person is not a mindless follower of Christ.
Yes. By my definition, being raised as atheist would be just as terrible. It's about being raised to believe something being a reason that's the problem. It's about finding your own spiritual medium, not indoctrination of a spiritual medium from someone else. I don't care whose agenda this is. However, it just happens to be that this one's Christian.

Show me examples of his original post that tells you that he's questioning, which is what I was replying to at that point in time. His opinions were in the latter half to which I had responded to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I do agree with this, but instead of acting like a jerk about it, explain the theory (and subsequent fact, until proven otherwise).

The Big Bang theory is much more complex, and has nothing to do with two rocks smacking together. It has to do with, essentially, an atomic explosion occurring, causing matter to fly all over the place. Now, keep in mind, matter makes up everything. There are different types of matter, Dark Matter, Anti Matter, Red Matter, and, well, your regular Matter. Despite the point, the explosion was theoretically caused by the first two atoms. Now, keep in mind, Albert Einstein was completely false when it came to actual Quantum Physics. Matter can be created or destroyed, but at different levels. Until proven otherwise, the only thing that cannot be created or destroyed is energy itself. Different subject entirely, but I digress.

The explosion opened up pathways for all sorts of different materials, and as you know (hopefully), the periodic table displays only the materials in our remote area (there may be more). And yes, chance is real. Statistics states that. Of course, chance does vary depending on math. And as it was very unlikely that the certain chemical process happened to give life, it is certainly not impossible.

There are several theories on how life arrived, not how it was created. We all know how it was created. How it arrived is a different matter. The Pan Spermia theory tends to be the most favored by the great thinkers such as Stephen Hawking. The Pan Spermia theory states that asteroids already baring the microscopic life impacted on our newly formed planet. If the same has happened here however, you also have to consider the possibility of life on other planets. And no, not aliens, but rather, creatures simply inhabiting other planets. They may look similar or totally different, depending how they adapted. Adapted.
None of this is about evolution.

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Key word there. Evolution teaches nothing less, and nothing more. Evolution simply teaches that living things, such as us, develop over time. Did you know that humans existed well before the time of God? Not necessarily before his existence, but well before we knew of him supposedly. That shows that we did not need his light to evolve into the thinking of a god. Several different areas around the world developed almost the same beliefs. The sun being the giver of life, and there being other gods or demigods in charge of other places.

Did you know Christianity would have been TOTALLY different had the Greeks and Romans never influenced it? Arch angels like Michael and Gabriel are both based off different Greek demigods. Which is plainly shows that religion evolves overtime. How does it do this? Either two possible answers. God evolves, or our minds do. Of course, if God evolves, we can safely assume he is a far different God than what most Christians think. If it is our minds evolving, we can safely say that there is no God influencing that specific belief. And since every religion changes, adapts, and evolves, we can say that God influences no religion. Yet, back to the Big Bang theory. How did the first two atoms come into existence? Not even Hawking has an answer for that. The only thing we can do is either believe God did it and continue to find an answer until it fills up the place for the need of the Maker, or we can say there is no God, and search for an answer that fills of that space. That is also assuming there is no God, which cannot be proven as of yet. Which, of course, makes Agnosticism, logically, the most correct belief.
Look. He's 11. I am not at the intellectual capacity for me to actually teach him anything in such a way that it would make sense for the both of us when it comes to science. The cognitive dissonance exists. I applaud your attempts to help, but be reminded that this is the same for you as it is for me. Why do you think I have such a difficult time debating with them 40 year old guys in another forum? The only reason why we are even having this conversation right now is because we have a relatively smaller gap in comparison to ours to the kid or ours to the 40 year old philosophers.

Secondarily, even you confuse the definition of evolution and other aspects of this and other scientific fields, such as abiogenesis and the Big Bang theory. Evolution has nothing to do with anything other than genetic material. Period. Anything we determine to "add on top" are our constructs to learn what is existing. You're not a scientist nor do you study science in school. So while factually what you're saying is true about Big Bang or abiogenesis, there is a mix up of where everything lies in the scale of biological sciences.

Thirdly, you're the only one who interpreted this as a jerk move. Please note that you have a natural tendency to interpret any text I write to be hostile even when I'm not, though it is more likely because my writing can be a bit "analytically cold" at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
How do you know your belief is the right one? There are no facts proving God doesn't exist, so you are simply placing your beliefs that there is no such thing. You simply believe it, same as these people believe in a God. The only difference is sometimes Abrahamic religions can be stubborn and aggressive about such things. Of course, you are also being quite aggressive and much of a jerk when this person is only stating his beliefs and opinions. That shows that the religious are not the only ones guilty of such a fault.

Simply put, there may or may not be a God. While science seems to be the only one making any progress in researching natural happenings, there is no evidence to disprove the existence of a Maker either. So, in all fairness, there is no definite answer.
You also make an assumption that I'm atheist nonetheless. I never said anything about who is being right or not; that wasn't my point. My point was to find out for yourself and stick with that, not what your parents say or what some preacher told you from age 5 to indoctrinate you. I could care less if after you've searched and found that Christianity/Judaism/Hindu/Satanism/Wicca/Buddhism/Muslim/Catholic/etc. is the correct religion; you've found what's right for you. The point of the paragraph was not to specifically attack Christianity or talk about my beliefs (it is irrelevant), but to propose questions and to examine the core of the ideas that exist and show that there are logical fallacies hidden within the different forms of indoctrination that exists. If one wants to straight up tell me "I'm right", then they better have answers to the most common fallacies, or at least have thought about them. The kid's 11, he's unlikely to have encountered those questions before. Heck, I even told the kid to have his cake and eat it.

Science will never strive to prove or disprove the existence of a god or not by sheer virtue of the fact that science is the study of the natural world. It cannot cross boundaries and answer questions about the supernatural. I'd like to keep it that way.

Last edited by Kenny_C.002; 07-18-2011 at 02:16 AM.
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  #19  
Old 07-18-2011, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Oh Lord. Here we go again.

I do believe in God. I just have a very different view of Him as of late. I have been doing a lot of research over the past few months. After certain influences have come and gone, certain happenings in my life, I knew I had to change what I was believing. For example, there is a lot in the Old Testament - and some things in the New Testament - that really should be looked over and reconsidered. Not reconsidered as in getting rid of parts of the Bible (unless we want to make another Jefferson Bible, or anything of the sort), but rather thinking, "Is this really what I believe in? Is this really relevant? What is God saying here?'

Quote:
An awful, awful argument that for some reason pro-religious people keep falling back to. There's no evidence that disproves the existence of unicorns, vampires, werewolves, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Raptor Jesus. If you actually believed in your own logic you'd believe in all of those as well, because hey, there's as much lack of evidence for them as there is for God! (if you do happen to believe in all of the above, then I take my statement back, but in that scenario I would have to question how you remain functioning in society)
Awful argument? I actually find it ingenious on our behalf, and part of the reason why faith in general - any faith at all - is still alive. Your counterargument for this is rude and condescending. You knew what he meant. Though it may be a scientifically sound statement you have there, God is - to my belief - a being that is elusive, covering up His trail with science and leaving people to believe what they want to believe. How can you prove that? God said, "Prove all things: hold fast that which is good." Believe with mind, not with sight. That is the very foundation of faith, is it not? The choice to believe in something - not knowing, which is an entirely different thing - is our own. To criticize this choice - no matter how asinine it may seem - is pointless, because every human has his or her right to exercise it. Though it may not be that way everywhere in the world, they can still believe what they want to believe, because we have free will.
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  #20  
Old 07-18-2011, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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I do believe in God. I just have a very different view of Him as of late. I have been doing a lot of research over the past few months. After certain influences have come and gone, certain happenings in my life, I knew I had to change what I was believing. For example, there is a lot in the Old Testament - and some things in the New Testament - that really should be looked over and reconsidered. Not reconsidered as in getting rid of parts of the Bible (unless we want to make another Jefferson Bible, or anything of the sort), but rather thinking, "Is this really what I believe in? Is this really relevant? What is God saying here?'
Agreed. That's a good part of the point that I'm trying to convey, but also to a much broader scale as well.

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Originally Posted by Professor Geoffrey View Post
Awful argument? I actually find it ingenious on our behalf, and part of the reason why faith in general - any faith at all - is still alive. Your counterargument for this is rude and condescending. You knew what he meant. Though it may be a scientifically sound statement you have there, God is - to my belief - a being that is elusive, covering up His trail with science and leaving people to believe what they want to believe. How can you prove that? God said, "Prove all things: hold fast that which is good." Believe with mind, not with sight. That is the very foundation of faith, is it not? The choice to believe in something - not knowing, which is an entirely different thing - is our own. To criticize this choice - no matter how asinine it may seem - is pointless, because every human has his or her right to exercise it. Though it may not be that way everywhere in the world, they can still believe what they want to believe, because we have free will.
My thought process for this matter is already there in the last paragraph of my last post. There will never be a proof of a supreme being of any sort under the laws of science because it never strives to look for it. So looking for proof is a fallacy just as using a lack of proof as counterproof is in itself a fallacy.

Let's not get into the free will problem, shall we?
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Though it may not be that way everywhere in the world, they can still believe what they want to believe, because we have free will.
No, we have the illusion of free will. If we take the Bible to be fact, then let's take a look at the story of creation. If we hold God to be an all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent being then after warning Adam and Eve not to taste the fruit of knowledge, he would have damn well known that they were bound to do it anyway.

Personally, I don't like the idea that we've been set up to fail from the very beginning. And if you really want to start quoting Bible passages to back up your point, I can quote just as many to show the numerous contradictions within the text.

With the Bible, it shouldn't matter to a believer if it is relevant or not. It's God's word!

Last edited by Orthar; 07-18-2011 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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No, we have the illusion of free will. If we take the Bible to be fact, then let's take a look at the story of creation. If we hold God to be an all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent being then after warning Adam and Eve not to taste the fruit of knowledge, he would have damn well known that they were bound to do it anyway.

Personally, I don't like the idea that we've been set up to fail from the very beginning. And if you really want to start quoting Bible passages to back up your point, I can quote just as many to show the numerous contradictions within the text.

With the Bible, it shouldn't matter to a believer if it is relevant or not. It's God's word!
Agreed. The Bible definitely should not be used to back up evidence.

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Yes. By my definition, being raised as atheist would be just as terrible. It's about being raised to believe something being a reason that's the problem. It's about finding your own spiritual medium, not indoctrination of a spiritual medium from someone else. I don't care whose agenda this is. However, it just happens to be that this one's Christian.

Show me examples of his original post that tells you that he's questioning, which is what I was replying to at that point in time. His opinions were in the latter half to which I had responded to.
He was asking whether or not God exists or not. That is quite a good question. This very forum, this very type of discussion, got me to finally think logically about the member. This very discussion convinced me to become Agnostic.

None of this is about evolution.


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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Look. He's 11. I am not at the intellectual capacity for me to actually teach him anything in such a way that it would make sense for the both of us when it comes to science. The cognitive dissonance exists. I applaud your attempts to help, but be reminded that this is the same for you as it is for me. Why do you think I have such a difficult time debating with them 40 year old guys in another forum? The only reason why we are even having this conversation right now is because we have a relatively smaller gap in comparison to ours to the kid or ours to the 40 year old philosophers.
Does age matter? My Uncle gave me a book when I was 12 about how the Church excepts the theory of Evolution. It explained the theory almost the same way I did, and I pretty much got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Secondarily, even you confuse the definition of evolution and other aspects of this and other scientific fields, such as abiogenesis and the Big Bang theory. Evolution has nothing to do with anything other than genetic material. Period. Anything we determine to "add on top" are our constructs to learn what is existing. You're not a scientist nor do you study science in school. So while factually what you're saying is true about Big Bang or abiogenesis, there is a mix up of where everything lies in the scale of biological sciences.
That has everything to do with the point. The theory begins with the Big Bang, and progresses to now. I stated we evolved even we did not "see the light" of God. I stated that religion evolves as well, which means it evolves along with us. It is quite a legitimate argument.

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Thirdly, you're the only one who interpreted this as a jerk move. Please note that you have a natural tendency to interpret any text I write to be hostile even when I'm not, though it is more likely because my writing can be a bit "analytically cold" at times.
Yeah, try to insert a joke in there at times. Like this:

Hay, so your a Psychiatrist?

No, I am a Psychologist.

Oh, so you are only half educated.

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
You also make an assumption that I'm atheist nonetheless. I never said anything about who is being right or not; that wasn't my point. My point was to find out for yourself and stick with that, not what your parents say or what some preacher told you from age 5 to indoctrinate you. I could care less if after you've searched and found that Christianity/Judaism/Hindu/Satanism/Wicca/Buddhism/Muslim/Catholic/etc. is the correct religion; you've found what's right for you. The point of the paragraph was not to specifically attack Christianity or talk about my beliefs (it is irrelevant), but to propose questions and to examine the core of the ideas that exist and show that there are logical fallacies hidden within the different forms of indoctrination that exists. If one wants to straight up tell me "I'm right", then they better have answers to the most common fallacies, or at least have thought about them. The kid's 11, he's unlikely to have encountered those questions before. Heck, I even told the kid to have his cake and eat it.

Science will never strive to prove or disprove the existence of a god or not by sheer virtue of the fact that science is the study of the natural world. It cannot cross boundaries and answer questions about the supernatural. I'd like to keep it that way.
Your belief very much matters, though I think it is safe to say you do not believe in the same god the OP believes in.

I also laugh at the fact that you belittle the OP simply because he is a kid. Love your euphemism. Not intellectually capable. Aha. We all know what you mean.


You also argue with me when we obviously agree on the same thing. However, I do believe science will one day disprove the existence of God, but since I do not know, I am not going to take a side. I think the possibility is high, as it has taken His role out on so much already and debunked so many things. So, enough. We both pretty much believe the same things.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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He was asking whether or not God exists or not. That is quite a good question. This very forum, this very type of discussion, got me to finally think logically about the member. This very discussion convinced me to become Agnostic.
He was asking for your opinion, but his convictions said otherwise. I don't mind that we have different interpretations of his original post, just that it isn't any less valid than your view.

The point of my posts were to have one think about the implications and things about religion regardless of which kind of religion. I would have done the same if it was a Muslim or a Satanist who posted the same questions. If you've interpreted this as an attack on Christianity, that is simply not my intentions. However, I think it is a good thing that it's getting people like you to think and come up with something of your own.

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None of this is about evolution.
So he brings it up at the end for what reason?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Does age matter? My Uncle gave me a book when I was 12 about how the Church excepts the theory of Evolution. It explained the theory almost the same way I did, and I pretty much got it.

That has everything to do with the point. The theory begins with the Big Bang, and progresses to now. I stated we evolved even we did not "see the light" of God. I stated that religion evolves as well, which means it evolves along with us. It is quite a legitimate argument.
It does. I don't possess the same mindframe I have now compared to myself 10 years ago. I don't pretend to know what to do because I understand my own limitations in this subject and have very little understanding on how child psychology works. It's great that you have an uncle that has an idea of referring to an expert(?) in the subject with the book. I don't have that kind of a resource at my disposal.

Your idea of evolution encompasses too much, hence why it's important to understand that the scientific perspective is different from yours. I know more by virtue of the fact that I studied this stuff for 5 years in university and have participated in debates of this sort in the past. You can't keep stating that Big Bang has anything to do with evolution and get away with it. The point of that was not to say whether or not your argument was legitimate, but rather that you have factual errors that needed to be corrected. As I had previously said, I could care less what your final religious beliefs are. That's not the point. Fix your factual errors, please.

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Yeah, try to insert a joke in there at times. Like this:

Hay, so your a Psychiatrist?

No, I am a Psychologist.

Oh, so you are only half educated.
I'm gonna facepalm this one all the way from the enemy's base back to mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Your belief very much matters, though I think it is safe to say you do not believe in the same god the OP believes in.
My actual religious belief doesn't matter. My belief on how life should be conducted under a religious mindset does. The idea of living an unenjoyable life is certainly not what any God would envision, regardless of religion. Life is a beautiful struggle.

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
I also laugh at the fact that you belittle the OP simply because he is a kid. Love your euphemism. Not intellectually capable. Aha. We all know what you mean.
You said that like 3 posts ago. Well at least you are being consistent at ad hominem though. You do, however, misunderstand when I say those things. It is a fact that a child thinks differently than I do, so yes, he is factually intellectually incapable of reaching my level of thinking at the present moment, Einstein excepted. This doesn't mean he won't in the future and this doesn't mean the kid is stupid. It's the same as how I am intellectually incapable of holding my own against the older generation. I simply don't have the mind capable of such things. Am I suddenly be"large"ing the older generation when I say that? If I say that a layman is intellectually incapable of discussing complex particle physics with a physics professor because he lacks the resources, am I somehow speaking a non-truth?

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
You also argue with me when we obviously agree on the same thing. However, I do believe science will one day disprove the existence of God, but since I do not know, I am not going to take a side. I think the possibility is high, as it has taken His role out on so much already and debunked so many things. So, enough. We both pretty much believe the same things.
I actually don't think science will ever prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being of any sort, as I have previously said.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post



I actually don't think science will ever prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being of any sort, as I have previously said.
There will come a time. It is up to humans, however, to accept it. One can hear all the evidence in the world and still be willfully ignorant, as I have seen much of that in my family.

And dude, there are some kids in this world that are just born logical adults, my cousin being one of them.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Mike Posner View Post
I was brought up to believe in God
That literally means nothing. That's like standing in a garage and saying you're a car. You can say what you are all you want, but you need to be able to have sufficient information and truly believe in what you do to be able to back it up and support it. This statement is like supporting one of Darwin's theories (I can't recall the specific name for it) that anything raised in a certain environment will adopt those characteristics. For example, a child raised in a household of alcoholics will be an alcoholic when he grows up.


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And anyway, isn't God meant to be all-loving and all-powerful? So God should be able to let everyone into heaven irrelevant of what they've done. Forgive, love your enemies, all that jazz.
No, that's often the projected image that uneducated Christians come up with, and it's often used against Christianity as a way to discourage any means of people trying to convert others (because sometimes it's used with force), so the harsh truth about God is, most of the time, kept secret. There's more to God than His immense love and his omnipotence. He's very wrathful towards sin, which has been inhabiting all of us ever since Adam and Eve took a bite out of the forbidden fruit. We are judged solely on how much we believe that the ultimate perfect sacrifice, Jesus, died for us to cover our sins so we are allowed into heaven and how willing we are to give our lives to Him in return. Not everyone deserves to go to heaven, but if God were to just let everyone in regardless of what they did while they were alive, that would make him hypocritical and would throw out everything that the Bible was trying to convey to us.

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Originally Posted by Orthar View Post
With the Bible, it shouldn't matter to a believer if it is relevant or not. It's God's word!
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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
Agreed. The Bible definitely should not be used to back up evidence.
What people seem to fail to realize about the Bible is one important matter.

The word "Testament" means "Covenant," which is basically a promise.
Both Testaments should not be used at the same time for quotes and evidence, unless it's such pointing towards the New Testament. The Old Testament's rituals and beliefs were rendered useless once Jesus came along and proclaimed a new promise from God. The New Testament is what should be followed, not the entire Bible (unless, again, there are references in the OT that point to some parts of the NT).

tl;dr: The old promises of the OT are disregarded and the new ones of the NT are the ones that should be observed and kept.

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
It is up to humans, however, to accept it. One can hear all the evidence in the world and still be willfully ignorant,
I can agree with this.

Christianity is supposed to be a faith and a friendship, not a religion. If I remember correctly, "religion" in the ancient times was often referred to as "law," meaning you had to follow it or face the harsh consequences/die. The New Testament now says that you have a choice to follow it, but you have to follow it by faith. "Religion" is also defined as "an obligation to follow a god or gods," meaning "you have to or else," and again, Christianity is supposed to be a faith and a friendship and is not supposed to work in the way of slavery. However if you want to use terms of slavery, think of it as being a slave to God in happiness willingly.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Awful argument? I actually find it ingenious on our behalf, and part of the reason why faith in general - any faith at all - is still alive. Your counterargument for this is rude and condescending. You knew what he meant. Though it may be a scientifically sound statement you have there, God is - to my belief - a being that is elusive, covering up His trail with science and leaving people to believe what they want to believe. How can you prove that? God said, "Prove all things: hold fast that which is good." Believe with mind, not with sight. That is the very foundation of faith, is it not? The choice to believe in something - not knowing, which is an entirely different thing - is our own. To criticize this choice - no matter how asinine it may seem - is pointless, because every human has his or her right to exercise it. Though it may not be that way everywhere in the world, they can still believe what they want to believe, because we have free will.
It's religious hypocrisy at its finest. So yes, it is condescending. The answer "faith" is rather, a lack of an answer, but it is still acceptable. The "no evidence against it" argument is awful because of its absurd logical outcome. If you believe in something merely because there is no evidence against it, then you logically should believe in everything that doesn't have definitive evidence against it. It's a train of logic that can only be properly used by the insane; for reasonable people that don't believe in self-propelled rocks in Death Valley, imps that steal your socks out of the washer, or that Google is a sentient entity plotting to destroy mankind, any use of this argument is simply hypocrisy. You do not believe in the argument that you are using, and therefore you cannot be using it.

So, in short, if your answer is faith, then you are basically stating you have no reason. If your answer is "there is no evidence against it", then you should believe in everything that everyone tells you.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
So, in short, if your answer is faith, then you are basically stating you have no reason. If your answer is "there is no evidence against it", then you should believe in everything that everyone tells you.
Faith is believing in what we can't see, not believing what everyone tells you, that's gullibility.

For example, can we see the air we breathe? How do we know it's there? If I were to go and say that air didn't exist, I would be thought of as a complete and total idiot. We can't see it, but we know it's there by the effects that we allow it to have over us, because it allows us to breathe and keep us alive. Oh, and wind, but that's not the point. The same idea applies to true Christians and God. They can't see God, but they can feel His presence at times and get overwhelmed physically or emotionally.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

Oh look... This thread... No. I do not believe in God. I do not believe in any higher power at all. I am an atheist, and I believe in tolerance. I feel that every person should be entitled to his/her own beliefs. All these stupid religious wars and whatnot anger me because your fighting over an idea, when you have no physical proof that either religion is right or wrong. Plus, I cannot believe in a great being with everything in the world. Poverty, disease, chaos, death, starvation, hatred, war, etc. I can't believe that a greater being would create us and then abandon us. I was born and raised christian, but I've turned to "the dark side". That is what 90% of the christians I know call atheism. If your god was real he wouldn't have let my grandfather, my pet, or my best friend die. I'm not saying people can't believe, because believing in something gives hope to the believers, but then I guess that means I don't believe in hope.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Ant2011 View Post
Oh look... This thread... No. I do not believe in God. I do not believe in any higher power at all. I am an atheist, and I believe in tolerance. I feel that every person should be entitled to his/her own beliefs. All these stupid religious wars and whatnot anger me because your fighting over an idea, when you have no physical proof that either religion is right or wrong. Plus, I cannot believe in a great being with everything in the world. Poverty, disease, chaos, death, starvation, hatred, war, etc. I can't believe that a greater being would create us and then abandon us. I was born and raised christian, but I've turned to "the dark side". That is what 90% of the christians I know call atheism. If your god was real he wouldn't have let my grandfather, my pet, or my best friend die. I'm not saying people can't believe, because believing in something gives hope to the believers, but then I guess that means I don't believe in hope.
Well, I think there may be a greater being, but definitely not the type most religions believe in. If any God exists, he or she is definitely not perfect.

@Lusankya: What reason do you have for not believing in a God? There is no evidence to prove or disprove the existence of God, therefore you believe there is no God. You are putting as much faith in that as theists are into God.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Do you believe in God etc?

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Originally Posted by Jessu View Post
Faith is believing in what we can't see, not believing what everyone tells you, that's gullibility.

For example, can we see the air we breathe? How do we know it's there? If I were to go and say that air didn't exist, I would be thought of as a complete and total idiot. We can't see it, but we know it's there by the effects that we allow it to have over us, because it allows us to breathe and keep us alive. Oh, and wind, but that's not the point. The same idea applies to true Christians and God. They can't see God, but they can feel His presence at times and get overwhelmed physically or emotionally.
Air can be objectively identified. God cannot. Your comparison is invalid.

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Originally Posted by Pe2k Voices View Post
@Lusankya: What reason do you have for not believing in a God? There is no evidence to prove or disprove the existence of God, therefore you believe there is no God. You are putting as much faith in that as theists are into God.
The initial assumed state of every possible concept must be "nonexistent". If you start off assuming everything exists, then your belief system cannot possibly function. Thus, we must seek to prove that things exist, rather than things do not exist. Believing in things because there's no evidence against them is simply stupid. In layman's terms, I don't believe in God for the same reason that I don't believe in unicorns, mermaids, Bigfoot or Scientology. It's not a matter of faith, but practicality. To do the opposite is to believe in everything, something that makes a person certifiably insane. Once again, we return to the fact that your argument, if it is to be applied to anything, results in the absurd outcome that you must believe in it because there's nothing that disproves its existence; and that goes as much for God as it does for little green men living under your bed. Hence, as I've said, you don't actually believe in what your own argument. Because if you did, you'd be in an asylum, or a nursing home, and you certainly wouldn't have the mental capacity to make a coherent post here.
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