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Discussion This is for discussion about current events (news), issues, politics, and any other topics of serious discussion. For more casual talk, go to the Other Chat board. Proper sentences, spelling, and grammar is especially strict in this board.


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  #16  
Old 07-03-2011, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: [WAR X] Debate Section

Oh this should be great for me haha. I'm going to be doing a research paper on a topic very similar to this for my next semester. ^_^

Octopus Babies
Against the ban

Honestly, this whole case just comes off as stupid and pointless to me. In most electronic stores, if the cashier sees a young child trying to buy a violent game that is rated T for Teen or M for Mature, they are told to refrain from allowing the purchase unless in the presence of a parent or legal guardian. I know this because my mother, who used to work for Circuit City, worked on a training project (which I actually contributed to) that would would have said rules and restrictions be shown to new employees of the retail stores.

I understand that the crafters and supporters of the bill to propose the ban on violent video games wish that today's young children never witness the brutality and gory violence that we see in games such as Mortal Combat, Doom, or Gears of War. But as I said earlier, the electronic retail stores to a good job already of making sure not to sell these games to children who are under the age requirement. With that said, the real problem lies with the irresponsible parents who buy these games for their children with or without the full understanding of the vulgarity that lies within the games. The children will beg and plead for the coolest and latest video game, and because the parent either doesn't care or doesn't understand the video game industry, they'll buy it for their son or daughter for special occasions like the winter holidays or their birthday. If those who are pushing for this ban really want to see change, they should be spending their time elsewhere; not with the court systems.

Finally, to sum it all up, the game industry has a rating system (Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB)) already and they're doing fine with their decisions.
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  #17  
Old 07-04-2011, 04:21 PM
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Team VILE
Against the Ban


Let's all stop for a minute and think about this. Has anyone ever stopped you from buying an R-rated movie? Nobody's stopped me. The other day I went to Target and bought the first three Saw movies, the Hangover, and Superbad (it was a crazy night, okay) and nobody even batted an eyelash. What makes an M-rated video game any different than an R-rated movie? Video games in recent years have become more than just a mere distraction from every day life; they've evolved into an art medium, into a device used for story telling. Would you stop a mature 16 or 17 year old from buying a movie like Requiem for a Dream or Schindler's List or any R-rated movie where the violence was used for a purpose? No, you wouldn't. However, I'm sure many people would stop their teenagers from buying a game like Heavy Rain. The game has the player tracking down a serial killer known as the Origami Killer and is highly cinematic; there's very little traditional game play. It's an entirely new breed of gaming. This is only one example in a recent trend of games that set out to leave the player with some kind of message, something that movies and books have been doing for decades. So why are video games treated so much differently than movies or any other art form? The answer lies in the past.


The rise of video games occurred in the late 70s and early 80s, with the release of Pong and the Atari 2600. Back then, video games were very simple and aimed at young children. Games like Tetris, Pac-man, and Donkey Kong were simple, repetitive, and lacking anything resembling a plot or, for that matter, violence. It is my belief, that the reason we currently have such an issue with people wanting to ban violent video games, is they assume that they are still marketed to kids who are still in grade school (Ages 5-11 for non US readers). However, most of the people who buy violent video games are 18 or older, many are even middle-aged. Violent games like Call of Duty, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Halo, and Grand Theft Auto are all targeted at people in their late teens and early 20s. No video game designer is trying to get 10 year olds a game like Grand Theft Auto, full of hookers, alcohol, and guns. Unfortunately, the image of video games being exclusively bought by young children has not yet left the public consciousness.


I think that what needs to happen, is a separation by video games that are more intense and for older players (like the aforementioned games) and games with simpler game play, that have less of a story, but are more suitable for small children (Pokemon, Super Mario, Little Big Planet). They're becoming two entirely different mediums, and just because they play on the same consoles does not make them equal. In any case, no art medium should ever be banned without a very good cause, as it violates the First Amendment. Violent games should be left on the shelves, and while I do think that there should be an age limit, eighteen is just way too high.

Sources:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/if-viole...ly-got-banned/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari
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  #18  
Old 07-04-2011, 06:22 PM
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Alaska, I think you're missing the point/question at hand.

First off, movies and video games are two separate forms of entertainment. When it comes to movies, you watch the violence occur. In video games, you inflict it. Which sounds worse? And to add on to that, studies have even shown that retail stores stop you from buying M-rated games a lot more frequently than R-rated movies. The difference is about 45% turned away for the R-rated movie and 80% for the M-rate game.

And in reference to your last paragraph, it sounds like it's your understanding that those in support of the bill wish to ban M-rated games altogether from being sold. This is not the case at all. The rejected proposed law was intended to criminalize the selling of M-rated games to minors. And this is where my initial argument bounces back into play. It's the irresponsible parents who are to blame for their children playing these violent games, not so much as the retail clerks.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news...-M-Rated-Games
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  #19  
Old 07-04-2011, 06:42 PM
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I think you're missing my point. A lot of newer games could almost be classified as interactive movies. Sure, some people wouldn't show R rated films to their kid, but if the kid was responsible and mature enough they would. I watched movies like The Shining, Silence of the Lambs, etc before I was 10, and I've turned out fine. *crickets* Maybe that's a bad example, but you see my point. Games are art, why limit their availability to people by age?


Quote:
And in reference to your last paragraph, it sounds like it's your understanding that those in support of the bill wish to ban M-rated games altogether from being sold. This is not the case at all. The rejected proposed law was intended to criminalize the selling of M-rated games to minors.
I understand that they're trying to ban them from being sold to minors. I don't think they should, for the reasons I've mentioned previously. It's just like people who have tried to ban Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird because the books use racial slurs to illustrate a point. I don't necessarily think 5 year olds should be running around playing GTA, but older teenagers should be able to. Games are reaching a point where some can almost be called intellectual. I wouldn't deny the right to use them by anyone.


Quote:
And this is where my initial argument bounces back into play. It's the irresponsible parents who are to blame for their children playing these violent games, not so much as the retail clerks.

I agree with this, but it also depends on what game. I don't think the rating system we have now is sufficient in deciding what games are age appropriate for who, but in all honesty, it never will be. It's all down to children's parents to decide what's appropriate for them. However, sometimes adults are no better judges than kids. I have a friend who's parents won't allow her to watch any movie, TV show, or listen to music, because they think it's all garbage. Depriving someone of things that can only broaden their thinking is wrong, perhaps even abusive. Look at these pictures:

http://hiryu.deadendthrills.com/wp-c...0-50-29-07.jpg

http://hiryu.deadendthrills.com/wp-c...0-31-17-70.jpg

http://hiryu.deadendthrills.com/wp-c...1-27-18-15.jpg

Those are all screen shots of the new GTA game. Can you see how realistic that is? I consider it to be art, and I just don't think that anyone needs to be deprived of art.
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  #20  
Old 07-05-2011, 02:24 AM
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Team ATA
Against the Ban

This doesn't seem a problem to me. I see a bunch of people my age or younger playing those war games like Call of Duty or Modern Warfare. Though, I never play those games. It's just a game they play, and it's highly unlikely that someone would say, "Hey, I saw on COD that they use guns, so we should to!" I doubt anyone would would think of it that way, more of just a fun game kind of way to me. Plus, these games cost like $50.00 bran new if not more. Though that may have nothing to do with this XD. But I feel there is no reason the ban should occur, becuase the kids playing think it's just a fun game, and nothing else.
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  #21  
Old 07-05-2011, 03:49 AM
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Octopus Babies
For the Ban


Let me begin by saying that video games are not art, they are a means of entertainment. It is completely possible for entertainment and art to combine, to be one thing. Video games, though, are the former. They may carry a message, but they are no where close to being as meaningful or moving as a message portrayed in the images of a film or the pages of a book. Visual art, such as the Mona Lisa or The Birth of Venus, represents a movement and has a meaning in culture. Video games do not have the ability to move you, they are simply candy for the eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEvilDookie
But as I said earlier, the electronic retail stores to a good job already of making sure not to sell these games to children who are under the age requirement.
There is no regulated law that makes the stores check the age of a child, simply a store's policy. Stores clerks, who may work on commission, could just as easily pretend they think a child is of age to buy an M-Rated video game just so they can have a larger slice of pie at the end of the week. A ban to the sell of minors would make this clerk think twice about checking the age of the consumer as there would be considerable consequences he would need to face for his actions.

There is no moral when it comes to doing business; they are looking to make the biggest profit possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaska
[ It is my belief, that the reason we currently have such an issue with people wanting to ban violent video games, is they assume that they are still marketed to kids who are still in grade school (Ages 5-11 for non US readers).
But they still are being marketed towards the younger generations. Why do you think companies like Activision pay super-star athletes or A-List celebrities to appear in their commercials and advertisements for games? They do this because those people are who children look up to; when a child sees this person they look up to endorsing something they immediately want to get their grubby little hands on it, because it makes them that much more like their role model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaska
I think that what needs to happen, is a separation by video games that are more intense and for older players (like the aforementioned games) and games with simpler game play, that have less of a story, but are more suitable for small children (Pokemon, Super Mario, Little Big Planet).
This is already done with the ESRB rating system. Games like Pokemon and Mario are given an E-for-Everyone rating while the more gore and inappropriate games are given an M-for-Mature rating. However, many parents that are purchasing these violent games for their children are not in-tune with the rating system and they do not clearly understand what they are purchasing for their children to play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaska
Those are all screen shots of the new GTA game. Can you see how realistic that is? I consider it to be art, and I just don't think that anyone needs to be deprived of art.
Those photographs are stills taken from the game; sure they are beautiful and I would consider them art, but they are not the game. A Grand Theft Auto game is a game in which the player kills innocent citizens and has the ability to degrade women. That is not a game that I would want my child to play until they are of age to understand that that kind of behavior is disgusting and wrong. I wouldn't have to worry about my child getting his hands on the game if this ban were set into place, because there would be a ridiculously low chance of any of my child's friends obtaining the game.

To end this post, I would like to point out that not banning violent games from teens and children is like not banning pornography from teens and children. They are very impressionable, they see something cool or interesting and want to try it out for themselves. Not to mention, games like Doom have been connected to shooting such as the Columbine Massacre. If we are not to protect and shield our children from these disastrous things what kind of being will they grow up to be?
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  #22  
Old 07-05-2011, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr
There is no regulated law that makes the stores check the age of a child, simply a store's policy. Stores clerks, who may work on commission, could just as easily pretend they think a child is of age to buy an M-Rated video game just so they can have a larger slice of pie at the end of the week. A ban to the sell of minors would make this clerk think twice about checking the age of the consumer as there would be considerable consequences he would need to face for his actions.

There is no moral when it comes to doing business; they are looking to make the biggest profit possible.
Every retail store has a set or morals. Otherwise people wouldn't ever shop there again. For example, if you were a store clerk, would you sell an M-rated game to a child while your manager watches over you, then tell him, "Yeah man, how about that profit we just made! *high five*" No, you wouldn't, lol. Now, you shouldn't start getting confused on the business practice end of the marketing world. It's only "all about profit" when the company is looking for new ways for merchandise to be sold, search for new hires, or cut spending as much as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr
But they still are being marketed towards the younger generations. Why do you think companies like Activision pay super-star athletes or A-List celebrities to appear in their commercials and advertisements for games? They do this because those people are who children look up to; when a child sees this person they look up to endorsing something they immediately want to get their grubby little hands on it, because it makes them that much more like their role model.
Unless you can provide a good example from YouTube or something with an M-rated video game being advertised with a celebrity in it, this argument is total crap. I've never seen anything like that be done for violent games. The only time you really see an athlete commonly advertise any game is for a sports game... Non violent. And the only time I've ever seen a movie star appear in a commercial for a video game has been Robin Williams and his daughter appear in the LoZ commercial for OoT for the 3DS. (This doesn't include movie stars from R-rated movies advertising their M-rated game because typically they aren't advertised on television).

Quote:
To end this post, I would like to point out that not banning violent games from teens and children is like not banning pornography from teens and children. They are very impressionable, they see something cool or interesting and want to try it out for themselves. Not to mention, games like Doom have been connected to shooting such as the Columbine Massacre. If we are not to protect and shield our children from these disastrous things what kind of being will they grow up to be?
The school shooter type is so rare, that coming to that point would most likely be to blame on mental instability or that atmosphere in which they grew up was unhealthy (which is actually what the two were: one being a psychopath, and the other deeply depressed). I'm pretty sure that the Columbine shooters didn't kill their peers and teachers because they played Doom.. And also, teens and children are still capable of accessing pornography, but you don't see the police smash down the front door every time it happens. That's because those sites give warnings every time you visit, as do violent video games with their rating stickers and (80% of the time) the cashier who may tell you that you're too young to buy the game.
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  #23  
Old 07-05-2011, 05:33 AM
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Let me begin by saying that video games are not art, they are a means of entertainment. It is completely possible for entertainment and art to combine, to be one thing. Video games, though, are the former. They may carry a message, but they are no where close to being as meaningful or moving as a message portrayed in the images of a film or the pages of a book. Visual art, such as the Mona Lisa or The Birth of Venus, represents a movement and has a meaning in culture. Video games do not have the ability to move you, they are simply candy for the eyes.
The first part of this is simply your opinion, which is alright to use as an introduction for your argument, but can't really hold up as a reason for something to be one way or the other. As for the part I've bolded... You don't think video games have changed out culture? You later go on to say that they cause children and teenagers to be violent. You wouldn't consider that a cultural change? I would. Secondly, look at non console games, like WoW and other MMORPGs. You don't think they've changed our culture at all? Many people now have two personalities; one they use online and one they use in real life. As more and more people spend major amounts of their free time online, that becomes an incredibly significant culture change. What will life be like in a decade or two, when everyone is walking around as an average Joe in the real world and as a Pokemon trainer or a knight or if you play Second Life, a hooker, in the game world? Video games have the power to change our world, whether for good or worse, but either way, we're not going to get anywhere by stopping them from being sold. Trust me. If you've seen any of those Youtube videos of gamers freaking out, you'll realize that gamers always find a way. Always.


Quote:
But they still are being marketed towards the younger generations. Why do you think companies like Activision pay super-star athletes or A-List celebrities to appear in their commercials and advertisements for games? They do this because those people are who children look up to; when a child sees this person they look up to endorsing something they immediately want to get their grubby little hands on it, because it makes them that much more like their role model.

As for this, I agree with TED. I mean, we've all seen how many video game commercials Jennifer Lopez or Brad Pitt are in, right? Right!? Yeah, exactly. The only example I can think of are the WoW commercials with Ozzy Osbourne and Mr. T, and if a kid's role models are Ozzy and Mr. T, they're probably already a little bit messed up...


Quote:
This is already done with the ESRB rating system. Games like Pokemon and Mario are given an E-for-Everyone rating while the more gore and inappropriate games are given an M-for-Mature rating. However, many parents that are purchasing these violent games for their children are not in-tune with the rating system and they do not clearly understand what they are purchasing for their children to play.

This isn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that simpler games should be considered completely different products than more complex games that require a great deal of thought to play.


Quote:
Those photographs are stills taken from the game; sure they are beautiful and I would consider them art, but they are not the game. A Grand Theft Auto game is a game in which the player kills innocent citizens and has the ability to degrade women. That is not a game that I would want my child to play until they are of age to understand that that kind of behavior is disgusting and wrong.

Firstly, if you consider books art forms, then you'll realize that there are many books, some of which considered classics, that involve large amounts of violence, some of it against women. Check out some of these:

American Psycho
Silence of the Lambs (the novel version)
Carrie

Secondly, I don't necessarily think that a 5 year old should be playing these games, but I do think that older teenagers should be able to. I bought all three of those books and I'm 15. Nobody tried to stop me. They probably thought I was a serial killer, but they didn't say anything about it. :b


Quote:
To end this post, I would like to point out that not banning violent games from teens and children is like not banning pornography from teens and children. They are very impressionable, they see something cool or interesting and want to try it out for themselves.

If all teenagers and children emulate things they see in movies, books, violent video games, and porn, I'd either be in death row right now, or bathing in the blood of my latest victim. However, I am neither. I think the same could be said for quite a few people. As for porn... well, everyone knows that GOOD teenagers never watch porn, amiright, Jr? ;D


Quote:
Not to mention, games like Doom have been connected to shooting such as the Columbine Massacre.

Once again, I agree with TED. There was already something wrong with those kids, and that kind of violence is incredibly rare. I think it would take something more than Doom to push somebody over the edge.



Sure does make me feel like murderin' some *******.


Quote:
If we are not to protect and shield our children from these disastrous things what kind of being will they grow up to be?

Pretty much every human being I know has been exposed to some kind of violent movie or game or book as a child. Many have even seen, get ready for this, actual violence. The majority of these people are functioning members of society. I mean, personally, I've seen a couple stiffs, had animals die on me, and watched and read TONS of violent forms of media, and I have yet to kill my neighbor, eat his skin, and bury the remains. If that seems oddly specific... You're probably imagining things. :b
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jr Trainer View Post
Visual art, such as the Mona Lisa or The Birth of Venus, represents a movement and has a meaning in culture. Video games do not have the ability to move you, they are simply candy for the eyes.
I was planning on staying out of this argument, I really was. But this forced me to jump in.

White Wolf of the Snow
The Cullen
Against


You've obviously been stuck playing Mario all of your life or something, because saying that video games do not have the ability to move you is like saying Pokemon, as a strategy game, does not have the ability to make you smarter. Have you never played the Final Fantasy series? Final Fantasy 10 made me cry, and it wasn't only me. My family and everyone else I know cried as well, at the end. It was the most moving game I've ever played. And what about Final Fantasy 7, one of the holders for Game Informer's "most shocking video game moment in history" award? A lot of people cried over that, though I won't spoil it for anybody.

For me, the Mona Lisa just represents beauty and creeper eyes that follow you, so I'm sorry if I don't share your opinion on that.

I understand not wanting your kids to buy M-rated material and stuff, and certain games are just going over the edge. But some games hardly even deserve to be rated M, and just have a little bit of blood and gore, or just a kissing scene, or something of the like. Some people take these games way too seriously. And on the Doom leading to a shooting matter, as alaska and EvilDookie said, would have to mean that there was something wrong with the kids before.

Even the best people were exposed to violence and sex and everything else that occurs in M-rated games, but that doesn't make them bad and automatically corrupts them. It's something we really can't prevent.

Putting a ban on them would just make trouble in gaming stores a lot more of a problem. Because teens will be missing those games. We don't like the games for the worse parts of them, most of the time. We enjoy them because they're fun. Call of Duty: Black Ops is rated M for mature just because we're going around shooting people. Do you know how many people would rage if they couldn't play CoD anymore just because of a stupid ban? A lot. xD
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[12:38:59 AM] GallantlyGlaceon: ...So how do we do this? XD
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[12:39:44 AM] Sight of the Stars: just be like "SIGHT OF THE STARZ IS MAH BIZNITCH"
[12:39:57 AM] GallantlyGlaceon: XDDD
[12:39:59 AM] Sight of the Stars: and I'll be like "GALLANTLYGLACEON IS MAH HOE."
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:01 AM
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The pokemaster
Elemental
For the Ban


So, this is American-based again. But I can actually talk about this so okay.

So this is like my opinion of where I stand, not based on what anyone else has said.

I'm for the ban. Even though I'm only fifteen right now, and I'd be affected by this if I was in America, I speak from a perspective of someone who would be heavily affected by this ban. And while I don't agree with it from my entertainment perspective, as I'll lose some good games, I think that in the broader picture, it would be more beneficial.

I'm going to start off with the whole, "video games negatively affect people" thing. And I do believe it's true. I know that my community in my area would be completely different to the community in wherever the rest of you live, but the way I see it, video games are just as bad, if not worse, than movies and the media for giving young teenagers the wrong impression. The media give so much publicity to bad behaviour, and so much publicity to people who abuse drugs or alcohol. Not only that, but death and sexual offences almost make up the backbone of the media. I took a look at Yahoo.com.au, to have a glance at the news, and what did I find? Drinking, dead body found after eight years, a Chinese escalator accident where a boy died, and around 30 were injured, a scandalous banner for charity which is being being deemed inappropriate for sex refences, and the Royal Fashion Show. I can list more. But four out of those five are throw light on negative things. That's the society we live in. The whole world isn't bad, but the media portrays it to be.

So how does this relate to video games? Most video games nowadays, especially the games in question, are excessively violent. There are very few games nowadays, from what I have seen, that offer good, clean fun for teenagers. A lot of games offer countless amounts of blood and gore, and terribly horrific ways to mutilate people, and that deems it an M rating, when a few years ago, Final Fantasy 12 (woo FF references) was deemed M because it contained some fantasy violence, where you slashed at dragons with swords and bows. There was no blood, no gore, no randomly ripping the dragon's head off. Just shooting it, and it falls down dying. And perhaps that was appropriate when when FF12 was released back in '06. But teenagers have started becoming more and more violent, because of the negative media, and video games have adapted to suit their more violent audience. Games like Call of Duty, Bioshock, and Red Dead Redeption, which are very mainstream around my area right now, all contain ridiculoous violence. Red Dead Redeption, for example. is almost constant 3rd person shooting, references to alcohol and drugs, overly excessive swearing, and almost deem it okay to shoot that random stranger on the road. Heck, you can shoot animals and skin them. And when you skin them, blood splashes all over your screen, and you can see a de-skinned carcass of a horse. It's horrific.

Now, I absolutely love these games, and that, I believe, is where the problem lies. I know how incredibly addictive this overly violent games are, and because I play these games so much, I don't see things like death as a big problem, or overly important, when I should. Death isn't something that should be taken lightly, but I, and my friends as well, all do it instinctively. Honestly, at times, we're just like the next group of idiotic morons, and we have done stupid things like jumping off rooves, just because we can. We all know better than that, and sometimes we can stop ourselves, but sometimes we just ignore that, because sub-consciously, we think we can get away with it, because in a lot of games, you can jump off a cliff without any repercussions, and it takes one of us to break their leg before we realise we shouldn't do it, and god knows we aren't the only ones.

Yes, there are kids who are already messed up, but a majority of people aren't, and do things because they don't know any better. Not everyone are as intelligent as you lot, and can, and will, do things because they saw it on a game, and won't know any better, and then they could seriously injure themselves, someone else, or completely ruin their life.

This is what our society is becoming, and this more violent change is being lead on by both video games, and the media's negative light on life. Banning, or atleast restricting or sensoring, some of the more overly violent games, I believe, are the way to go. Yes, I won't be happy about this change, and yes, my friends won't be happy about this change, but small steps need to be taken, to make this society less violent, lest your chiildren, or even our children, when we get there, become even worse. Which, if we keep going the way we are, god knows they will. Banning overly violent video games won't automatically make things better, but it's a start, and all things to start somewhere.

Also, quoting because I think it's right and somewhat supports my point a little bit .
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Originally Posted by The Jr Trainer View Post
If we are not to protect and shield our children from these disastrous things what kind of being will they grow up to be?
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  #26  
Old 07-06-2011, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: [WAR X] Debate Section

-Pichu Boy-
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Against the Ban


I'd just like to start by saying that at the age of about 6, I was playing Metal Gear Solid and Tomb Raider, games which, at that time, I'm guessing weren't E-for-everyone rating. I've turned out completely fine. Why is this? Mostly because of my mum and her boyfriend's constant company while I was playing them and their insistence that they were just games, which is exactly what TED has brought up. It's mostly down to the parents.

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Originally Posted by The Jr Trainer View Post
Visual art, such as the Mona Lisa or The Birth of Venus, represents a movement and has a meaning in culture. Video games do not have the ability to move you, they are simply candy for the eyes.
I can quite safely say that no piece of artwork has ever moved me. At most, it's left me completely confused at how it can be considered art when any average Joe could have done exactly the same thing. I went to the MoMA in New York once, and there was a canvas that was entirely black. That was it, a black canvas. How is that art?

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But they still are being marketed towards the younger generations. Why do you think companies like Activision pay super-star athletes or A-List celebrities to appear in their commercials and advertisements for games? They do this because those people are who children look up to; when a child sees this person they look up to endorsing something they immediately want to get their grubby little hands on it, because it makes them that much more like their role model.
As has been said before, I think an appropriate argument for this is 'pics or it didn't happen'. With the WoW example, I hardly think you can compare elfs casting spells at ogres to gain gold coins to buy stuff (read: fantasy) with men having their way with women while swearing all the time and mugging people or whatever they do in those games (because, I admit, I'm not personally one who makes a habit of playing these games).

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However, many parents that are purchasing these violent games for their children are not in-tune with the rating system and they do not clearly understand what they are purchasing for their children to play.
Quick question: if it's the parents that are actually the ones purchasing the games (because, to be honest, who lets a 10-year-old go to a game shop on their own with up to $50 on them?), then how will the implementation of the ban solve anything? The parents are over the age limit, so they can still buy the games for their kids.

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That is not a game that I would want my child to play until they are of age to understand that that kind of behavior is disgusting and wrong. I wouldn't have to worry about my child getting his hands on the game if this ban were set into place, because there would be a ridiculously low chance of any of my child's friends obtaining the game.
The thing is, though, how can we judge what the age is where kids miraculously now understand "this is right and this is wrong"? This, again, leads this back to the parents, and how they should be the ones to judge whether they believe their child is mature enough to play such a game.

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To end this post, I would like to point out that not banning violent games from teens and children is like not banning pornography from teens and children. They are very impressionable, they see something cool or interesting and want to try it out for themselves. Not to mention, games like Doom have been connected to shooting such as the Columbine Massacre. If we are not to protect and shield our children from these disastrous things what kind of being will they grow up to be?
If kids are as impressionable as you say, then why are there not kids trying to shove themselves down green pipes, running at high speeds and trying to break stuff by doing multiple flips in the air, or anything else from popular game franchises?

TL;DR - Blame the parents.
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Last edited by -Pichu Boy-; 07-06-2011 at 01:57 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-06-2011, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by The pokemaster View Post
So how does this relate to video games? Most video games nowadays, especially the games in question, are excessively violent. There are very few games nowadays, from what I have seen, that offer good, clean fun for teenagers. A lot of games offer countless amounts of blood and gore, and terribly horrific ways to mutilate people, and that deems it an M rating, when a few years ago, Final Fantasy 12 (woo FF references) was deemed M because it contained some fantasy violence, where you slashed at dragons with swords and bows. There was no blood, no gore, no randomly ripping the dragon's head off. Just shooting it, and it falls down dying. And perhaps that was appropriate when when FF12 was released back in '06. But teenagers have started becoming more and more violent, because of the negative media, and video games have adapted to suit their more violent audience. Games like Call of Duty, Bioshock, and Red Dead Redeption, which are very mainstream around my area right now, all contain ridiculoous violence. Red Dead Redeption, for example. is almost constant 3rd person shooting, references to alcohol and drugs, overly excessive swearing, and almost deem it okay to shoot that random stranger on the road. Heck, you can shoot animals and skin them. And when you skin them, blood splashes all over your screen, and you can see a de-skinned carcass of a horse. It's horrific.
Ha, haha, actually, people don't like to do that because it ruins their reputation. They prefer to kill the wolves, because they're as annoying as hell. ;D Just have to say that. Will edit this later.
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[12:38:59 AM] GallantlyGlaceon: ...So how do we do this? XD
[12:39:20 AM] Sight of the Stars: it's nothing really big, just usually a note in your sig that's all like 'paired with soandso'
[12:39:44 AM] Sight of the Stars: just be like "SIGHT OF THE STARZ IS MAH BIZNITCH"
[12:39:57 AM] GallantlyGlaceon: XDDD
[12:39:59 AM] Sight of the Stars: and I'll be like "GALLANTLYGLACEON IS MAH HOE."
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  #28  
Old 07-06-2011, 06:05 PM
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I know that my community in my area would be completely different to the community in wherever the rest of you live, but the way I see it, video games are just as bad, if not worse, than movies and the media for giving young teenagers the wrong impression. The media give so much publicity to bad behaviour, and so much publicity to people who abuse drugs or alcohol.
You know, when I see news stories about people overdosing on drugs and alcohol, it makes me NOT want to do them. The media reports negative things because they get more viewers that way. Technology has always been villainized by the media. It used to be TV and rock and roll, now its rap, the internet, and video games. Also, as for movies giving teenagers the wrong impressions... ever seen Requiem for a Dream or Leaving Las Vegas? Those movies make drinking and drugs look like ever so much fun. :b Some video games, like Grand Theft Auto that portray the character drinking/doing drugs, clearly make it known that the main character isn't a good dude. Or if you play LA Noir, it's the criminals doping up. Either way, most kids are able to distinguish between real life and make believe. Nobody's going to start drinking or shooting up just because they saw it happen in a video game or movie.


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But teenagers have started becoming more and more violent, because of the negative media, and video games have adapted to suit their more violent audience.

If video games are adapting to be more violent because the consumers are already violent, how are they making an impact? If the consumers are already killing people....


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Games like Call of Duty, Bioshock, and Red Dead Redeption, which are very mainstream around my area right now, all contain ridiculoous violence. Red Dead Redeption, for example. is almost constant 3rd person shooting, references to alcohol and drugs, overly excessive swearing, and almost deem it okay to shoot that random stranger on the road.

Once again, just because something is done in a game, doesn't mean most people are going to think it's okay in real life. Nobody watches Kill Bill or Saw and thinks they can run around killing people. Also, I don't understand why people care so ******* much about swearing. (See what I did there?) Unless you're using a racial slur, I don't get why it's so offensive. It's just a way of expressing yourself. Also, all of those games take place in places or times where killing people is okay. If you're in the army, sometimes you've gotta shoot people. Same thing with being a cowboy in the 1800s, or whatever the hell happened in Bioshock. If you ever find yourself armed with a piece of pipe in a dystopian underwater landscape, by all means, feel free to use it.


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Heck, you can shoot animals and skin them. And when you skin them, blood splashes all over your screen, and you can see a de-skinned carcass of a horse. It's horrific.

I've shot and cleaned out animals in real life, though the largest was a deer rather than a horse.... Still, I'm pretty well balanced. Tons of people take their kids hunting and they usually don't end up being serial killers.


Quote:
Death isn't something that should be taken lightly, but I, and my friends as well, all do it instinctively. Honestly, at times, we're just like the next group of idiotic morons, and we have done stupid things like jumping off rooves, just because we can. We all know better than that, and sometimes we can stop ourselves, but sometimes we just ignore that, because sub-consciously, we think we can get away with it, because in a lot of games, you can jump off a cliff without any repercussions, and it takes one of us to break their leg before we realise we shouldn't do it, and god knows we aren't the only ones.

You're telling me that you jumped off a roof, because you're used to being able to do it in video games and weren't afraid of getting hurt? That sounds like a personal problem, bro. Most people don't go around jumping off of buildings or running in front of cars because they saw it happen in a video game. As for desensitization from death... That can almost be a good thing, as long as you know not to go killing people. I've had to hold animals while they get put to sleep and that nature. Crying all over the place wouldn't have helped things. Maybe it would be better for our culture if we didn't flip out every time something died. As long as we still value human life, which I don't think video games have the power to change, seeing as they're made of pixels, not flesh and bones.


Quote:
Yes, there are kids who are already messed up, but a majority of people aren't, and do things because they don't know any better. Not everyone are as intelligent as you lot, and can, and will, do things because they saw it on a game, and won't know any better, and then they could seriously injure themselves, someone else, or completely ruin their life.

Natural Selection. Caching. I'm kidding, of course, but give me some examples of people who have screwed up their life or managed to kill themselves because of something they saw in a video game or even on a movie or TV show, where that person wasn't already in a bad situation.


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Yes, I won't be happy about this change, and yes, my friends won't be happy about this change, but small steps need to be taken, to make this society less violent, lest your chiildren, or even our children, when we get there, become even worse. Which, if we keep going the way we are, god knows they will.

I wasn't aware you were able to see into the future and saw a Mad Max-esqe apocalyptic wasteland where people committed horrible acts because they saw too much violence in video games and television. You should get people to pay you money for that or write a book or something.


Quote:
With the WoW example, I hardly think you can compare elfs casting spells at ogres to gain gold coins to buy stuff (read: fantasy) with men having their way with women while swearing all the time and mugging people or whatever they do in those games (because, I admit, I'm not personally one who makes a habit of playing these games).
As for this, this discussion is about ALL violent video games, not just ones that take place in non fantasy settings, which is why I included it as an example. Also, not many games have very much sexual content. Even with the hookers/strippers in GTA, you don't really see much happen.


Quote:
If kids are as impressionable as you say, then why are there not kids trying to shove themselves down green pipes, running at high speeds and trying to break stuff by doing multiple flips in the air, or anything else from popular game franchises?

And I agree with this.
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  #29  
Old 07-06-2011, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: [WAR X] Debate Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by The pokemaster View Post
I'm going to start off with the whole, "video games negatively affect people" thing. And I do believe it's true.
I agree with this, though some video games such as educational ones promote intelligence and good behavior, though many teens wouldn't play these games, I'm sure these war games inform the player as how the war went on and such. And the media portrays the world to be bad because it makes a good story. No one would care so much as if the media promoted the world. People like juicy stories, which is why they spice it up so they can sell it to the media. And I also agree that many of the video games today are violent, and they are changing teens, but I've only seen change as to them being addicted to the game, not that they go off and be violent. Like I said before, Teens won't just go off and say, "I saw this on this violent game and we should do it!". You have to know that the sterotypes of teenagers aren't true for most individuals, but I'm not saying all teens are "obedient" and I'm not saying some don't "rebel".



Quote:
Yes, there are kids who are already messed up, but a majority of people aren't, and do things because they don't know any better. Not everyone are as intelligent as you lot, and can, and will, do things because they saw it on a game, and won't know any better, and then they could seriously injure themselves, someone else, or completely ruin their life.
There are smart teens out there and the utterly stupid, but merely a fraction will do what they saw on a video game. And those teens who would "ruin their life" would most likely be from drinking and drugs, and texting while driving and drinking under the influence and what not, but I don't have a doubt in my mind that it wouldn't be from video games. They also most certainly can do what they saw from a game, but I don't think they would go out and hollow horse carcuses, becuase they would have nothing to gain.

Quote:
Now, I absolutely love these games
If you love these games, you wouldn't be able to play them if the ban occurs. :P
And I'd say A LOT of teens would be sitting around doing nothing if it wasn't for these games, becuase most teens are lazy if I do say so my self. They'd rather sit and eat junk food then go out and swim or something recreational. And when teens play these games, they ususally get caught up in the game and do not eat for 6-8 hours! Keeping them from stuffing greasy, junk down their throats.

That's just my thought on your post. But, don't think that I utterly hate you or anything, I'm just trying to prove a point!
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  #30  
Old 07-06-2011, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: [WAR X] Debate Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEvilDookie View Post
Unless you can provide a good example from YouTube or something with an M-rated video game being advertised with a celebrity in it, this argument is total crap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hncudrWXpX0
Kobe Bryant, Jimmy Kimmel

Promotional events are surrounded by celebrities as well.

http://nerdreactor.com/2010/11/05/ga...s-for-charity/

Quote:
The school shooter type is so rare, that coming to that point would most likely be to blame on mental instability or that atmosphere in which they grew up was unhealthy (which is actually what the two were: one being a psychopath, and the other deeply depressed). I'm pretty sure that the Columbine shooters didn't kill their peers and teachers because they played Doom.
But playing the game likely was the switch that turned them into killers, if they hadn't been introduced to the violence they may have never performed the killings. A ban would keep this switch from being turned on, possibly, and maybe the person could get some help before they go and do something rash (like kill innocents and then themselves).

http://www.pamf.org/preteen/parents/...20adolescents?

"In another study conducted by Gentile, Lynch, Linder & Walsh (2004, p.6) "adolescent girls played video games for an average of 5 hours a week, whereas boys averaged 13 hours a week". The authors also stated that teens who play violent video games for extended periods of time:
  • Tend to be more aggressive
  • Are more prone to confrontation with their teachers
  • May engage in fights with their peers
  • See a decline in school achievements. (Gentile et al, 2004)."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska
You don't think they've changed our culture at all? Many people now have two personalities; one they use online and one they use in real life. As more and more people spend major amounts of their free time online, that becomes an incredibly significant culture change. What will life be like in a decade or two, when everyone is walking around as an average Joe in the real world and as a Pokemon trainer or a knight or if you play Second Life, a hooker, in the game world?
May I remind you that we are talking about video games in terms of art as being able to communicate ideas. You describe video game culture, but you do not describe specific video games that can change culture and people's school of thought. There's many ways to define art, but the kind we're talking about is fine art; in the case of books, it's called books of literary merit. That means when I talk about books, I'm not talking about Harry Potter or American Psycho. I'm talking about literature, such as Crime and Punishment and Heart of Darkness. These novels have well crafted themes, symbols, and literary devices that ones you mentioned do not.

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If all teenagers and children emulate things they see in movies, books, violent video games, and porn, I'd either be in death row right now, or bathing in the blood of my latest victim. However, I am neither. I think the same could be said for quite a few people. As for porn... well, everyone knows that GOOD teenagers never watch porn, amiright, Jr? ;D
Of course not all teenagers and children will emulate everything they see or hear. But there will be an amount of them that do, and to protect those that do it would be in the best interest of everyone to ban things, such as violent video games, that children may emulate and cause harm to themselves and others.

And yes, to answer your question, a good well behaved child wouldn't watch pornography; it is illegal.

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Firstly, if you consider books art forms, then you'll realize that there are many books, some of which considered classics that involve large amounts of violence, some of it against women.
I never stated that because of violence that video games were not art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by white wolf
You've obviously been stuck playing Mario all of your life or something, because saying that video games do not have the ability to move you is like saying Pokemon, as a strategy game, does not have the ability to make you smarter.
No. I've actually played quite the array of video games. None of them have changed me in any significant way.

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Final Fantasy 10 made me cry, and it wasn't only me. My family and everyone else I know cried as well, at the end. It was the most moving game I've ever played. And what about Final Fantasy 7, one of the holders for Game Informer's "most shocking video game moment in history" award? A lot of people cried over that, though I won't spoil it for anybody.
Did the ending of FFXII change your life in some way? I highly doubt it. Did it make you feel different about your surroundings? I, once again, doubt it. You cried because you were in the moment of the game, connected to the characters. It did not show or explain something in the world. Art from the French Revolution or the famous Washington Crossing the Delaware, show how the world is. Art from the French Revolution is mostly depressing and sad, as that part of France's history was filled with blood shed. Washington's portrait showed triumph as the colonists were finally ridding of British rule. Even today these works of art move people, showing them how it was in past time.

Video games do not have this effect. Centuries from now they will not show how the world was or represent anything.

Quote:
Even the best people were exposed to violence and sex and everything else that occurs in M-rated games, but that doesn't make them bad and automatically corrupts them. It's something we really can't prevent.
We can prevent from corrupting children and teens though. Many mediums of corruption are from video games, as that is where many kids spend their free time. With a ban this would slow down or retract this corruption from happening until kids are of age and can make safe choices for themselves.
Quote:
Call of Duty: Black Ops is rated M for mature just because we're going around shooting people. Do you know how many people would rage if they couldn't play CoD anymore just because of a stupid ban? A lot. xD
Do you know many people were mad when gun laws were put into place? A lot. Did that stop the government from enforcing the gun laws? No. Do you know why gun laws were put into place? Because it made the world a safer place. With a ban on violent video games children will be safer to themselves and others.
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