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  #16  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

seems like a pyrrhic victory to me. I dont understand the celebration over a death. There have been so many losses over the last ten years including a handful of friends of mine...in no way was this a real victory. I wouldnt have traded a single one of those guys for his life, but here we are celebrating again this mad mans death. His death won't scare off this kind of stuff in the future....this will further the cause against our country.
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  #17  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Dark Shadow Lord View Post
seems like a pyrrhic victory to me. I dont understand the celebration over a death. There have been so many losses over the last ten years including a handful of friends of mine...in no way was this a real victory. I wouldnt have traded a single one of those guys for his life, but here we are celebrating again this mad mans death. His death won't scare off this kind of stuff in the future....this will further the cause against our country.
You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea..
So you think letting him live and continue what he was doing would have been a better idea? Somewhere or sometime, it had to be done. As for terrorist retaliation, them acting out of rage is only going to cause them to make reckless mistakes, which will be a further downfall for them. Before 9/11, we were pretty lax with security. Now, we've been steeled against terrorism and have already shut down and prevented further terrorist acts before they happened.

Okay, I agree that we shouldn't start throwing confetti, launching fireworks, handing out candy, and so on, but it is good to know that this guy didn't get off scott free for what he did and live a happy and prosperous life after planning and initializing the attack that killed so many innocent people. Instead, he was forced to live in hiding, dwell in caves like some animal, and was eventually killed for what he did. For many, that kind of closure is the kind of thing they've been waiting for.
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2011, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
God bless America. 'Nuff said.
That phrase always made me sick, simply because it leaves out the rest of the world. And about Osama bin Laden, I dare you to watch Zietguiest. I have even done you the trouble of posting the link. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7575671329682#
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  #19  
Old 05-02-2011, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
So you think letting him live and continue what he was doing would have been a better idea? Somewhere or sometime, it had to be done. As for terrorist retaliation, them acting out of rage is only going to cause them to make reckless mistakes, which will be a further downfall for them. Before 9/11, we were pretty lax with security. Now, we've been steeled against terrorism and have already shut down and prevented further terrorist acts before they happened.

Okay, I agree that we shouldn't start throwing confetti, launching fireworks, handing out candy, and so on, but it is good to know that this guy didn't get off scott free for what he did and live a happy and prosperous life after planning and initializing the attack that killed so many innocent people. Instead, he was forced to live in hiding, dwell in caves like some animal, and was eventually killed for what he did. For many, that kind of closure is the kind of thing they've been waiting for.
When does this really stop neo..I mean the guys who are directly responsible for this have been dead for years. Now we’ve killed this man twice, are we going to continue to search for everyone else affiliated to the 9/11 bombings? If so how many more people will lose their lives for this war which may never end. Maybe the best way to honor the whole situation is to finally bring people back home since the goal has been met.


At least 2,985 people died in the September 11, 2001.
4,404 US trops dead, 66,081 Civilians dead...I can’t in good consensus say one person was worth that. My real concern is what the next guy in line will do, and are reaction to that will be.
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  #20  
Old 05-02-2011, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
So you think letting him live and continue what he was doing would have been a better idea? Somewhere or sometime, it had to be done. As for terrorist retaliation, them acting out of rage is only going to cause them to make reckless mistakes, which will be a further downfall for them. Before 9/11, we were pretty lax with security. Now, we've been steeled against terrorism and have already shut down and prevented further terrorist acts before they happened.

Okay, I agree that we shouldn't start throwing confetti, launching fireworks, handing out candy, and so on, but it is good to know that this guy didn't get off scott free for what he did and live a happy and prosperous life after planning and initializing the attack that killed so many innocent people. Instead, he was forced to live in hiding, dwell in caves like some animal, and was eventually killed for what he did. For many, that kind of closure is the kind of thing they've been waiting for.
He's no different from the rest of the extremists. He's just as disposable as everybody else in that camp anyway. So in that sense, having him dead is like having a figurehead dead. Sure it looks nice on your side, but it really doesn't serve to do much outside of that. I wouldn't celebrate yet either, since the extremists would more likely be making their next assault. From what we know, it's been 10 years in the making, knowing that they have set a precedence of approximately 1 major terrorist attack every 10 years. And vengeance comes in vicious cycles.

Secondarily, the amount of money you guys are bleeding into the military system and Blackwater is massive. A good portion of the debt you're racking up comes from his hemorrhage, and is only second to medicare/medicaid in terms of massive expendature. That is, part of the reason why this recession was so strong was because of the two simultaneous wars during this era, one of which was illegal.

Also, as Dark Shadow Lord said, I really don't think losing so many people for 1 extremist is a great trade off, considering that he's just a figurehead. What this does allow Obama do is give him the excuse to withdraw, which I think will have to happen sooner rather than later in order to slow down the expenditures and slow the death toll. To add to the irony, Obama's chances at a second term just skyrocketed. In those senses, this may be considered a positive coming out from all of this.

It's hypocritical statement when you to stated that killing innocent lives is evil but fail to recognize that fighting wars inevitably involves killing innocent lives with no exceptions. A war has no justice, and for better or worse the war is called the war on terror. Just because it is a victory in a battle, in the grand scheme of things nobody came out the winner and certainly nobody came out being just. It was not justice we seeked on this war, it was vengeance.

I'm not going to make a comment about "God bless America" other than state that this phrase is insulting to humans. Recognize the accomplishments and the failures of what humans do as they are, not as what some Supernatural Being that may or may not exist and may or may not intervene, but is definitely not part of the natural realm where humans dwell, did.

I'm also going to make a slight comment about Muslim, Islam, Hindu, etc. families in the US. In a sense, I'm happy that these people may get less subjugation as they would have had in the past 10 years or so. The situation they were in reminded me of the Japanese concentration camps in US and Canada during World War II. Being caught in the crossfire while being completely out of the war zone is in itself an injustice to the innocent, and I seriously hope these families would forgive America now that Osama's dead.
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  #21  
Old 05-02-2011, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Neo Emolga View Post
It wasn't just him. There were plenty of other terrorist members that were targeted and brought to justice in the process, not to mention it initiated a whole slew of anti-terrorist operations in effort to make the world a safer place. We also showed them that we're serious, and we're not going to take this crap. To simply bow heads down and weep after 9/11 and do nothing about it would have given them more morale and encouragement to keep going. Instead, they now got a clear message that if they bite, we're going to bite back, and HARD. This is proof and sends a message that if anyone thinks of following Osama bin Laden's campaign or gets inspired from it, they're going to end up the same way he did. D-E-A-D Period.

Anyway, you may have forgotten how tragic and gut-wrenching 9/11 was, but I haven't. I've seen the World Trade Center site several times, and it is STILL a somber and melancholy place that gives you the same feeling a graveyard would. One of my parents' friends was in lower Manhattan that day, and you know what he said?

"It was like Vietnam all over again, only worse."

To you, it may sound like it took the US a shabby 10 years to find a sneaky terrorist leader. To me, after a long, hard, and painful search, we finally brought a terrorist mastermind to justice, avenged the thousands of lives he stole from US families and the destruction he caused, made the world a safer place by eliminating terrorists, and sent a clear message to anyone even thinking of trying to do the same thing he did. We are still united, we are still strong, and we have won because of it.

Well that is certainly one way to look at it, and you may be true since I'm not American and was only 9 years old when it happened I might not remember as much of the events and emotions that were involved around 9/11, but I do remember it was on a Tuesday because Pokemon was suppose to be on that night, they canceled Pokemon for news.

So to quote Ghandi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

But your implying that something was accomplished by killing a simple minded idiot, but only time will tell if anything truly was accomplished, since the other terrorists are probably just as furious as the US was back in 2001 and seeing they are that simple minded they will probably try to do something else, and if they do so it becomes a never ending war, but the only difference in this war between the US and them, is that they casted the first stone against a extremely powerful country which makes them rather stupid.

Also I'm not calling the US simple minded (Just wanted to say that) I completely see why they invaded Afghanistan and in fact they were in full rights in doing so, especially since the motives for 9/11 were fueled by simple minded terrorists who are misinterpretation their religion and are showing prejudice towards other nations/people who choose to believe in something else. But I don't really see why 10 years had to be spent tracking down one individual at the cost of more US citizen's lives as well as the innocent people who got caught in the cross fire, hadn't enough innocence lives been taken at the terrorists expense on 9/11.

So yeah, maybe it's just the fact that Iceland doesn't have an army (it was protected by the US army for about 50 years), but I feel Osama Bin Laden just wasn't worth the people who died because of him these past 10 years. I would have just let him rot and die in his hiding/exile and if he'd ever decide to come out of hiding I'd capture and kill/imprison him then.

Last edited by Simmi; 05-02-2011 at 05:15 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-02-2011, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Are you guys for real? Man, it's almost scary how quickly and how irrationally people forget what these guys did, and that's probably the rest why history repeats itself. Osama bin Laden was a soulless bastard who started this whole nightmare in the first place, really no better than Hitler or Stalin were. He had no one to blame but himself. Thing is, if we didn't stop him, who would? What was going to stand in his way to stop him from continuing this from city to city, country to country? Nothing, someone had to stop him. Otherwise, yeah, he would have kept on going, thinking he was a hero for taking a stab at a country that had to work hard for its success.

Also, Dark Shadow Lord is WRONG, this is NOT one extremist we're talking about, this is an entire terrorist group that is being targeted to be taken down (didn't I say this already?). Also, unfortunately, a war was necessary, and yes, unfortunately, sacrifices had to be made because there weren't any alternatives (and if you had a good alternative in mind, speak up!). Sorry, but telling terrorists "hey guys, that wasn't nice, behave next time!" isn't going to do anything. It sounds stupid because it is. Negotiations don't work with extremists like this either, so what is to be done? Nothing at all? There are times when words don't work anymore, and action becomes necessary. If action is not taken, then expect a cycle of abuse and duress. I think it sounds rather stupid to let a country so far behind in technological and economical advancement bully us around like we're just some punching bag to rage against.

And what's so wrong with "God bless America?" I know most of you are so hopelessly and sadly swept up in your own parade of atheism, but seriously, lay off. If you don't want to love this country, fine, then don't ever come here. And while you're at it, stop trying to turn OUR country into YOUR country. This business of coming here and hating our culture makes me sick.

Quote:
So to quote Ghandi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Sounds great if you never believed in justice. Letting the blind man suffer while the attacker that blinded him goes free and enjoys the sight of life isn't right either, you know. Otherwise, all the innocent are blind and all the guilty can see.
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2011, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

Neo, I think you were mistaken when you said this "a country so far behind in technological and economical advancement bully us around like we're just some punching bag to rage against."
You're confusing the actions of a small group with a whole country. A country filled with people who are doing nothing other than trying to survive.

Also, just because people are not a fan of the phrase "god bless america" doesnt mean that they dont love thier country just as much as everyone else.
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  #24  
Old 05-02-2011, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
He's no different from the rest of the extremists. He's just as disposable as everybody else in that camp anyway. So in that sense, having him dead is like having a figurehead dead. Sure it looks nice on your side, but it really doesn't serve to do much outside of that. I wouldn't celebrate yet either, since the extremists would more likely be making their next assault. From what we know, it's been 10 years in the making, knowing that they have set a precedence of approximately 1 major terrorist attack every 10 years. And vengeance comes in vicious cycles.

Secondarily, the amount of money you guys are bleeding into the military system and Blackwater is massive. A good portion of the debt you're racking up comes from his hemorrhage, and is only second to medicare/medicaid in terms of massive expendature. That is, part of the reason why this recession was so strong was because of the two simultaneous wars during this era, one of which was illegal.

Also, as Dark Shadow Lord said, I really don't think losing so many people for 1 extremist is a great trade off, considering that he's just a figurehead. What this does allow Obama do is give him the excuse to withdraw, which I think will have to happen sooner rather than later in order to slow down the expenditures and slow the death toll. To add to the irony, Obama's chances at a second term just skyrocketed. In those senses, this may be considered a positive coming out from all of this.

It's hypocritical statement when you to stated that killing innocent lives is evil but fail to recognize that fighting wars inevitably involves killing innocent lives with no exceptions. A war has no justice, and for better or worse the war is called the war on terror. Just because it is a victory in a battle, in the grand scheme of things nobody came out the winner and certainly nobody came out being just. It was not justice we seeked on this war, it was vengeance.

I'm not going to make a comment about "God bless America" other than state that this phrase is insulting to humans. Recognize the accomplishments and the failures of what humans do as they are, not as what some Supernatural Being that may or may not exist and may or may not intervene, but is definitely not part of the natural realm where humans dwell, did.

I'm also going to make a slight comment about Muslim, Islam, Hindu, etc. families in the US. In a sense, I'm happy that these people may get less subjugation as they would have had in the past 10 years or so. The situation they were in reminded me of the Japanese concentration camps in US and Canada during World War II. Being caught in the crossfire while being completely out of the war zone is in itself an injustice to the innocent, and I seriously hope these families would forgive America now that Osama's dead.
Figurehead or not, Bin Ladin is a symbol to the whole world, including the terrorists, and they are as easily swayed by symbolism and propaganda as anyone else. In the long run the fact that he's dead will hurt their cause. The fact that they lost THE most visible symbol of their success is a major blow, a symbolic blow, but symbols are important nonetheless. The fall of the Berlin Wall wasn't really significant either, but it changed the way people thought about Communism. Decades from now, Osama's death could well be seen as where it all started to end.

Yes, it's hypocritical. But criticizing America for not being perfect just doesn't hold water. There's no country on Earth that, if placed in America's situation, wouldn't have done the same. And if there was it would rapidly cease to be a country. America did what it had to, and it turned out well. That's the most that can be asked.

Also, any claim that Osama's death wasn't worth it is clearly ignoring everything else that America has done in the process. The conflict in the Middle East escalated beyond Osama Bin Ladin years ago. A century later, Iraq and Afghanistan could be democratic, modernized societies full of people whose lives are hundreds of times better than they would have been otherwise; would it be worth it then? Maybe even the Arab Spring wouldn't have happened if Iraq and Afghanistan hadn't happened. We stopped going to war for Bin Ladin ages ago, so of course if you compare our sacrifices for everything else to that one mission it will look meager. But we didn't, and we're not, and since you can't pinpoint exactly what sacrifices were made to get to him, you can't argue that Osama wasn't worth it since you don't know what we paid.
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  #25  
Old 05-02-2011, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

May i just say, here in america, WE WANTED HIM DEAD. He was a horrible mercenary, who killed the world trade centers in new york. He was maybe worse then Hitler. The good thing is that hes gone and india and pakistan will most likely go back to their nuclear wars which america will most likely but our heads into and then in result, will be hiit hard by both...ether way we wernt gonna win.
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  #26  
Old 05-02-2011, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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(Just so you know beforehand, Sarah, this is not aimed at you)

Oh, and they can show off every captive they have of a U.S soldier and proclaim how we are the devil and should all perish in a jihad? They can show a soldier have his head hacked off while the poor man screams to death? They can show off all that propaganda against us US Army "devil dogs?"

We want the world to know a madman is dead. Those who show off and celebrate are over the top, yes, but I am happy those 3,000 or so people who died ten years ago finally got the vengeance they deserved.
I'm not knocking this, not at all. I still remember the day the Twin Towers fell, and I was barely ten years old.

But in my opinion, t'is a very bittersweet victory. Yes, we've (because I'm including Australia and the like in this, not just the US) brought down one man, virtually the Hydra's heart in this whole situation (or you'd hope so). And doing so will hopefully lead to the fall of Al Qaeda (again, you hope so, you really do).

But I reiterate, it's a bittersweet victory. We've lost so much - the US, Australia, Britain...I could go on. Which brings up another rather disturbing theme this thread seems to have - why the hell are we arguing over a phrase ("God Bless America")? Yes, it is a little irksome for other countries involved, but it's neither here nor there in this situation. But I doubt it was said in the deliberately ignorant way it appears to have been taken as (I definitely don't doubt Neo will poke his head and support or debunk this comment either, ha). We were discussing the death of a man who's been the figurehead of terror for years, and (hopefully) reflecting on what we lost to achieve it. Seriously, lay the f*k off about it or go argue it out in another thread.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:06 PM
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My negative opinion of the Obama administration aside, Osama bin Laden is a monster that needed to be erased from this world. He is one less extremist to worry about.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2011, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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May i just say, here in america, WE WANTED HIM DEAD. He was a horrible mercenary, who killed the world trade centers in new york. He was maybe worse then Hitler. The good thing is that hes gone and india and pakistan will most likely go back to their nuclear wars which america will most likely but our heads into and then in result, will be hiit hard by both...ether way we wernt gonna win.
Hitler and Osama were about on the same level, albeit Hitler was able to draw closer to achieving his objective of genocide by several millions of more casualties due to Nazi Germany commanding more power and funding than what Al-Qaeda has. Given a hypothetical scenario where Al-Qaeda had as much power, they very likely would have attempted to use similar methods, rather than striking at nations as sleeper cells. Honestly, it's not hard to see that Osama, with Hitler's militaristic power, funding, and influence, would have used propaganda to twist beliefs of Sharia law on a wider scale, and very likely would have called for a genocide of all those not practicing Islam, even though it's clear the motives were deeper than religious beliefs. Osama was using the Islamic faith as a catalyst to achieve his own objectives and draw those who followed the religion to be mislead and misguided by his teaching. And yes, this is exactly how it happened with Nazi Germany.

Call it bad luck or misfortune, but the damage that Osama did at the World Trade Center was not expected. No one thought that both towers were going to fall, but the structural damage done was the result of a chain reaction, and the success of the attack paired with the massive collateral damage gave Al-Qaeda additional morale. It also put many Americans in a state of fear, concern, and anger, which spread to other countries as well.

Unfortunately, Osama was a person that could not be reasoned with. He had damaged a symbol of American culture, freedom, and democracy, which in turn damaged the economy as well, along with the security and comfort of innocent people. After accomplishing this level of success, it only encouraged him to continue, find more ways to cause damage, and put strong, powerful nations in fear and at his mercy. And he accomplished this to quite a degree, and even managed to cause tensions between Americans and Islamic followers and Arabic people. However, after we took a step back and separated fact from myth, it was clear, blaming Muslims and followers of the Islamic faith for what Osama did was wrong. It was no different than what Hitler did, obscuring truths and beliefs to instill different perceptions, which in turn he could use to accomplish his own objectives, regardless of how destructive and deadly they were.

Because of this, war was necessary, Osama was not a person that could be allowed to continue accumulating power, influence, and command. If we allowed for him keep gathering more power and influence, the attacks would have gotten worse, the damage would have been more severe, and in time, it may have escalated into a situation beyond our control. Casualties in World War II were massive, costly, and incalculable, and while the casualties in the war on terror are still costly, they are far, far less than what we saw in WWII, something that this could have turned into if someone had not done anything about it.

And this is why Americans are celebrating his death, because it marks the end of a terrorist leader's tyranny and the possibility of them claiming even more innocent lives. If Hitler had been stopped in a similar fashion, it would have also marked a significant cornerstone in history, and it is very likely there would have been celebration also. If the Nazi regime was stopped earlier, chances are very good many millions of lives would have been spared. Unfortunately, there is no way to go back in time, what was done was done, but we can still learn from it, and understand how and why these events came to pass, and that knowledge can help us prevent something just as costly and catastrophic from happening in the future.

The war on weapons of mass destruction is also still necessary, and is arguably more serious considering that if a large amount of these weapons were used in rapid succession, you would be looking at damage and destruction on apocalyptic levels, and the targets of those weapons would very likely be rendered into a state that would be far too destroyed to retaliate, giving the attacker additional leverage over whoever might oppose them.

Other countries may look down on America for invading other countries like this, but there is a reason for it. We don't want to see a world where entire countries have been decimated, taken over, with millions of lives killed because we didn't take action, and could have been spared if only we had intervened. We saw what could happen in World War II, and God only knows what may have continued to happen if no one did anything about it, but it's very certain it would have been extremely destructive and very costly. Imagine, if you will, what the world would be like if Hitler and the Axis powers won World War II. Imagine, if you will, what it would be like if Osama bin Laden gathered more allies, more funding, and additional support and power, and soon began using those those resources toward taking over nation after nation, spreading his propaganda to mislead others to follow his regime.

This is why Americans celebrate. Because a man who would have done these things no longer can, and an organization that tried to do these things is now crippled, and will have great difficulty overcoming this setback, if they even can. It marks a victory that democracy, freedom, and unity has achieved over tyranny, deceit, and destruction, and has spread news of this message worldwide, and why those who may follow Hitler's and Osama's mentality think twice and reconsider the choices and actions they may make.

So yes, it does mean something to me.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:56 PM
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I'm afraid not
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: Osama bin Laden is dead

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Originally Posted by Nova_Eevee View Post
May i just say, here in america, WE WANTED HIM DEAD. He was a horrible mercenary, who killed the world trade centers in new york. He was maybe worse then Hitler. The good thing is that hes gone and india and pakistan will most likely go back to their nuclear wars which america will most likely but our heads into and then in result, will be hiit hard by both...ether way we wernt gonna win.
FYI, a mercenary is a soldier for hire. Bin Ladin was not a mercenary. And the threat of India and Pakistan going to nuclear war is somewhere between a 2 and a 3 on a 10 point scale of likelihood, with 10 being the most likely, with the US being hit by either of them between a 0 and a 1.
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Dali: "I know what the picture should be ... We take a duck and put some dynamite in its derriere. When the duck explodes, I jump and you take the picture."
Halsman: "Don't forget that we are in America. We will be put in prison if we start exploding ducks."
Dali: "You're right. Let's take some cats and splash them with water."
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