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  #31  
Old 02-08-2011, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
I was merely suggesting a possibility for why homosexuality is passed down, it wasn't an absolute statement. Either way, the fact exists that homosexuality can be passed down genetically (as it obviously is).
Fair enough. I am merely refining your statements to accommodate for current genetic understanding.

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Khaj was talking about population, not density, so I was using his argument. Even so, in nature food supply is almost always an issue long before crowding becomes a problem. Unlimited food and water supplies usually just don't occur in nature, so a population will typically start starving to death before it gets to being overcrowded to that point. Rats are also territorial, so in nature they would very rarely, if ever, become crowded like in that situation.
And thus I corrected that analogy by stating that it is density that is important. It didn't have much to do with you as it has to do with the entirety of the argument itself. I am stating that Khaj would have been right if he chose his words differently.

However, what is true is that humans can be crowded like that situation. This is why the information there is so important, because our urban centers function very similarly to the box analogy: we have very small spaces where a lot of people gather, and within such a constraint, there is no food or water problems due to our use of supermarkets, plumbing, etc. Thus the use of the animal model itself actually sheds some light into human behaviour in an indirect fashion. That I think is the most important take home message that I was trying to state.
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  #32  
Old 02-08-2011, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

A serial killer can be born with brain damage, doesn't stop people accepting them as normal.

I dont have this view, but im sure many (cough: religious failures) will.
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  #33  
Old 02-08-2011, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

id just like to mention that up till very recently most gay people lived as straight, and had kids and a wife. mostly to conform to the norms off society. thus its pretty easy for them to pass on the gay gene without any problem.
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2011, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Ayotui View Post
id just like to mention that up till very recently most gay people lived as straight, and had kids and a wife. mostly to conform to the norms off society. thus its pretty easy for them to pass on the gay gene without any problem.
MOST gay people lived a streight, and had a wife and kids?
That's the catholic in you comming out, please continue, your discrimination and arrogance is very entertaining.
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  #35  
Old 02-08-2011, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Masami View Post
MOST gay people lived a streight, and had a wife and kids?
That's the catholic in you comming out, please continue, your discrimination and arrogance is very entertaining.
All teenagers do drugs, all old people stink, all catholics discriminate.
SEE WUT I DID THER?
no, i meant back in the day. not anymore but back in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

Quote:
However, what is true is that humans can be crowded like that situation. This is why the information there is so important, because our urban centers function very similarly to the box analogy: we have very small spaces where a lot of people gather, and within such a constraint, there is no food or water problems due to our use of supermarkets, plumbing, etc. Thus the use of the animal model itself actually sheds some light into human behaviour in an indirect fashion. That I think is the most important take home message that I was trying to state.
Hmm, I'm not so sure. If humans are the first species to encounter such environments, then there wouldn't have been any opportunity for such a trait to evolve. It's possible rats are just less particular about gender and, while a male rat would prefer a female rat, if they get sexually starved enough they'll go after anything that's alive. Thus, the behavior wouldn't necessarily be intended to reduce population density. Maybe something in the study makes this theory obsolete though.

Quote:
id just like to mention that up till very recently most gay people lived as straight, and had kids and a wife. mostly to conform to the norms off society. thus its pretty easy for them to pass on the gay gene without any problem.
You cannot possibly know this for certain, as there's no way to tell if someone's gay unless they tell you they are gay, which they certainly won't if they're living as straight. And I'm pretty sure no surveys on the subject were done back then, and if there were they wouldn't be answered honestly. Actually, there is plenty of evidence suggesting that homosexuality has been in every culture, from ancient Greece and Egypt to East Asia and the Americas from the beginnings of recorded history. In fact, anti-homosexuality sentiments doesn't really seem to start until the 13th century in Europe when the penalty for it became death even though homosexuality was widely expressed during the Renaissance.
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  #37  
Old 02-09-2011, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Lusankya View Post
Hmm, I'm not so sure. If humans are the first species to encounter such environments, then there wouldn't have been any opportunity for such a trait to evolve. It's possible rats are just less particular about gender and, while a male rat would prefer a female rat, if they get sexually starved enough they'll go after anything that's alive. Thus, the behavior wouldn't necessarily be intended to reduce population density. Maybe something in the study makes this theory obsolete though.
Yeah, the paper mentioned that a portion of the mice were actually just not interested at all. It's actually not that difficult to think that the genes themselves could be neutral until a certain amount of crowding happens. That is, you don't commonly (obviously this still happens, just at a lower rate) see mice exhibiting different behaviour under "normal" circumstances. There needs not be an opportunity for a trait to evolve so much as there only needs opportunity for the trait to express itself.

Think of this as antibiotic resistance. All known antibiotic resistances are currently not new, but are locked away in large plasmid/chromosomic chains of genes (i.e. operon) in different bacteria. It is simply that due to the evolutionary pressures involved that some aspects of that operon is in motion, but it also means that there are hundreds of thousands of other genes in that operon that hasn't had any chance to do anything yet. Perhaps in humans, epigenetic changes (i.e. methylation, acetylation, etc.) control our homosexual genes in a similar fashion in utero as a response to crowding? Of course, I must admit that it is conjecture, but it's not that far of a stretch, especially since we know humans use epigenetic controls in utero in response to the environment.

There is a documentary from BBC called "Ghost in your genes" that documents some of the current (well a couple years ago) understanding of the still new field of epigenetics. It's a recommended viewing for a broad overview, especially with the interesting cases of Angelman/Prader-Willi (sp?) syndromes.
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  #38  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Yeah, the paper mentioned that a portion of the mice were actually just not interested at all. It's actually not that difficult to think that the genes themselves could be neutral until a certain amount of crowding happens. That is, you don't commonly (obviously this still happens, just at a lower rate) see mice exhibiting different behaviour under "normal" circumstances. There needs not be an opportunity for a trait to evolve so much as there only needs opportunity for the trait to express itself.

Think of this as antibiotic resistance. All known antibiotic resistances are currently not new, but are locked away in large plasmid/chromosomic chains of genes (i.e. operon) in different bacteria. It is simply that due to the evolutionary pressures involved that some aspects of that operon is in motion, but it also means that there are hundreds of thousands of other genes in that operon that hasn't had any chance to do anything yet. Perhaps in humans, epigenetic changes (i.e. methylation, acetylation, etc.) control our homosexual genes in a similar fashion in utero as a response to crowding? Of course, I must admit that it is conjecture, but it's not that far of a stretch, especially since we know humans use epigenetic controls in utero in response to the environment.

There is a documentary from BBC called "Ghost in your genes" that documents some of the current (well a couple years ago) understanding of the still new field of epigenetics. It's a recommended viewing for a broad overview, especially with the interesting cases of Angelman/Prader-Willi (sp?) syndromes.
That first paragraph just shows that evolution DOES help organisms.

I recommend reading Stephen Hawking's "Grand Design" before we venture forth.
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  #39  
Old 02-17-2011, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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Originally Posted by TitaniumAnimations View Post
That first paragraph just shows that evolution DOES help organisms.

I recommend reading Stephen Hawking's "Grand Design" before we venture forth.
The point I'm making is that evolution in itself is not a mechanism to help populations of a particular species. It is the selective pressures that dictate how such a mechanical and neutral process would end up behaving. That is, you're oversimplifying the concepts that baffle scientists even today.

Recall that I majored in genetics before implying that I don't know anything.
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  #40  
Old 02-18-2011, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

Just because I recommended a book written by Stephen Hawking does not mean I am implying you don't know anything, for one never stops learning.
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  #41  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

Fair enough, I apologize for falsely accusing you as such. Internet makes it tough to detect sarcasm sometimes.
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  #42  
Old 02-19-2011, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

It does... How can I tell that there is sarcasm or not intended in that statement?
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  #43  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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the oldest stupidities that the anti-gay communities proclaim: homosexuality is a choice and is entirely not genetically programmed one bit.
lolwut.

Even if homosexuality is something genetic, it's still a problem.
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  #44  
Old 03-11-2011, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

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lolwut.

Even if homosexuality is something genetic, it's still a problem.
It's not a problem at all. The closed minded bigots who just say "Gays are bad" are the problem. I am straight, and I have several gay friends, and they are awesome people. So tell me, how is it a problem?
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  #45  
Old 03-11-2011, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Lesbian mouse gene found

It is not a problem per se, for I have nothing against it. Being gay is not a problem, it is simply something different. I have no problem with hanging out with gay people, it is when they get all in your face about it. That is when I start to say, "Okay, son. That is enough."

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