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  #16  
Old 10-09-2010, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Well yeah, because we need to kill to survive. Whether it's plants, animals, pests, etc., we're killing to eat. We should be killing mice to further knowledge if the mice are handled in a humane manner. There is no reason not to, or do you prefer the times when we just simply leave millions of people to die because of a sickness they have, and we don't have the technology to do anything about it? Would you prefer us still leeching blood from people as a valid form of medicine? There's a lot of things that go down in research that don't deal with stupid stuff like cosmetics, and I think that legitimate use of animals with proper treatment is fine. As I have said, either we test on humans, we test on mice, or we watch people die. We can't have a perfect world where we have perfect medicine and not test on animals.

In fact, you are dead wrong on the part about humans not caring about animals other than humans. For a developed country, those humans care about their own middle-class and up citizens, and sometimes only the elite class. Don't think of us humans as highly as we actually are. However, for the few that actually care about mankind and do animal research, they stand at at least at a higher moral ground than the average politician.
I don't think any human life is worth more than an animal's. It may be 'neccesary' to do this for humans to survive, but it still sickens me.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2010, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
You know what, I was actually going to post my reason, but decided to leave it out as I thought it would be a little stupid to be called a valid reason.

I just don't like animal abuse. I dislike it very much. This is why I'm vegetarian. I don't know why, but I love animals. Probably the only animal I have no problem killing is a roach, but sometimes I feel regret afterward. XD

There is no way for me to control the abuse on animals and I know animal experimentation is actually good for our future, but I still don't support it. This is why I don't support the radiation experiments on monkeys NASA is planning.

I thought about becoming an Animal Cruelty Investigator, but then it dawned on me (with help of Animal Cops: Houston) that I would face much more peril than aid. I've actually seen the Animal Cops a couple of times being filmed around here. I thought of becoming a Veterinarian as well, but that it's pretty much the same situation as with becoming an Animal Cop.

But maybe it's that I don't want to see pain happen to an animal. The very thought of harm on an animal saddens me. This is why I can't support it. But I know it will still happen. I'd rather avoid discussion on animal experimentation because I know I'll be going into a battle I can't win. So, yeah. =\
This.

I know that it's "either us or them", but seeing an animal in pain is just so... not right. :(
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2010, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
You know what, I was actually going to post my reason, but decided to leave it out as I thought it would be a little stupid to be called a valid reason.

I just don't like animal abuse. I dislike it very much. This is why I'm vegetarian. I don't know why, but I love animals. Probably the only animal I have no problem killing is a roach, but sometimes I feel regret afterward. XD

There is no way for me to control the abuse on animals and I know animal experimentation is actually good for our future, but I still don't support it. This is why I don't support the radiation experiments on monkeys NASA is planning.

I thought about becoming an Animal Cruelty Investigator, but then it dawned on me (with help of Animal Cops: Houston) that I would face much more peril than aid. I've actually seen the Animal Cops a couple of times being filmed around here. I thought of becoming a Veterinarian as well, but that it's pretty much the same situation as with becoming an Animal Cop.

But maybe it's that I don't want to see pain happen to an animal. The very thought of harm on an animal saddens me. This is why I can't support it. But I know it will still happen. I'd rather avoid discussion on animal experimentation because I know I'll be going into a battle I can't win. So, yeah. =\
Why not vet? Considering that it's not a job that's being frowned upon anyways. I do have issues with people who value a non-human animal's life over a human's life, but I don't get that vibe from you. You do have a very common belief amongst vegetarians and animal lovers in general.

I really don't understand the part about "seeing pain" doesn't leave room for humane treatment of animals. It does, considering that we have known methods to minimize pain in animals, and it is required by law to practice these methods. That's why I don't think it's a bad thing to have such experimentations on animals as long as the laws are reinforced. As I have said, the animals in experiments are in general treated better than the majority of humans.

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Originally Posted by Male Snorunt View Post
I don't think any human life is worth more than an animal's. It may be 'neccesary' to do this for humans to survive, but it still sickens me.
Why should it sicken you? That these animals are treated better than a majority of the human population because they're furthering knowledge of humans? It sickens me that this is true, simply because we can treat non-human animals better than humans. That is, for 90% of the world, a non-human animal's life is of greater value than a human's life.

I can't think of any more irony than I'm already displaying.
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  #19  
Old 10-09-2010, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

Animal Experimentation is sickening, however, it must be done to allow us to bring out these drugs and stuff which essentially can be used to cure illnesses. We need to test them on animals, as essentially, they have no conscience like we do. Plus, mouse and rat's insides are similar to ours.

What would you do if a sibling of yours was brought up for an experiment and died because it was lethal to humans? You would complain, obviously, say they should of tested it on something first... And that is why animals are tested on. There's a rat or mouse within 6 foot of everyone at all times, so put that to scale, the rats or mice being used for experimentation are nothing in the scale of rodents in the world.

In Britain alone there are more rodents than humans.
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2010, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Why should it sicken you? That these animals are treated better than a majority of the human population because they're furthering knowledge of humans? It sickens me that this is true, simply because we can treat non-human animals better than humans. That is, for 90% of the world, a non-human animal's life is of greater value than a human's life.

I can't think of any more irony than I'm already displaying.
I'm not understanding what you mean when you say we're treating them better by doing expirementation on them. And where do you get the statistic that "90% of humans value non-humans' lives over humans" while if someone is grossed out by an insect, they will crush it under their palm?
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  #21  
Old 10-09-2010, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Why not vet? Considering that it's not a job that's being frowned upon anyways. I do have issues with people who value a non-human animal's life over a human's life, but I don't get that vibe from you. You do have a very common belief amongst vegetarians and animal lovers in general.

I really don't understand the part about "seeing pain" doesn't leave room for humane treatment of animals. It does, considering that we have known methods to minimize pain in animals, and it is required by law to practice these methods. That's why I don't think it's a bad thing to have such experimentations on animals as long as the laws are reinforced. As I have said, the animals in experiments are in general treated better than the majority of humans.
I don't consider a human life more valuable than a human's, but sometimes (although it may sound crazy) I think they should be considered equal, especially when a person is purposely abusing an animal. If it must be done for our well being, fine. But I'd rather not see it happen or think about it.

Just like watching Animal Planet: when I see a calf, in pain, trying to escape the grip or a lioness, there's nothing that can be done. It's life. In this case, (in a way) we are the lioness and the calf is the animal being experimented on. It's life. And it's important for our life.

Although, I am relieved to hear that experiments are causing less pain on animals. But I can't support or condone it. =\
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2010, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

I like how everybody ignores my comment on this =\
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  #23  
Old 10-10-2010, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Kaioo View Post
Animal Experimentation is sickening, however, it must be done to allow us to bring out these drugs and stuff which essentially can be used to cure illnesses. We need to test them on animals, as essentially, they have no conscience like we do. Plus, mouse and rat's insides are similar to ours.

What would you do if a sibling of yours was brought up for an experiment and died because it was lethal to humans? You would complain, obviously, say they should of tested it on something first... And that is why animals are tested on. There's a rat or mouse within 6 foot of everyone at all times, so put that to scale, the rats or mice being used for experimentation are nothing in the scale of rodents in the world.

In Britain alone there are more rodents than humans.
I'm getting fed up with people who just say it's sickening without understanding of how research with animals actually works. It's just like the evolution topic: people comment because they are completely ignorant of the situation at hand. Again, animal research is not that bad. They are, for the most part, treated as well as any reasonable ethical standard. And I must again stress that this type of treatment is better than how we treat the majority of the population of humans in the world. If we are to find animal research sickening, we should be focusing on why we're treating our own species worse in general and figure out how to deal with that first.

Well, mice are the closest cheap alternative we have. Not that everything is similar/same though.

Also, people aren't replying to your view because they more or less have the same views. I'm their opponent.

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Originally Posted by Male Snorunt View Post
I'm not understanding what you mean when you say we're treating them better by doing expirementation on them. And where do you get the statistic that "90% of humans value non-humans' lives over humans" while if someone is grossed out by an insect, they will crush it under their palm?
Think where the majority of humans exist. If we run under your assumption that treating non-human animals better is equal to valuing the life of non-human animals more, then that is the only conclusion we can arrive at. Obviously it's not a statistic, and obviously nobody would bother to find a statistic such as this (I mean, who'd get funding for that?). Secondly, this is about animal experimentation, not about random people crushing insects (even then we still do better than a majority of humans, at least the insects didn't suffer before dying). Do you have any idea on how animal experimentation even works? Do you know that there are strict laws and guidelines of ethical treatment of animals in animal research? Should it matter that you should be informed before making a comment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
I don't consider a human life more valuable than a human's, but sometimes (although it may sound crazy) I think they should be considered equal, especially when a person is purposely abusing an animal. If it must be done for our well being, fine. But I'd rather not see it happen or think about it.

Just like watching Animal Planet: when I see a calf, in pain, trying to escape the grip or a lioness, there's nothing that can be done. It's life. In this case, (in a way) we are the lioness and the calf is the animal being experimented on. It's life. And it's important for our life.

Although, I am relieved to hear that experiments are causing less pain on animals. But I can't support or condone it. =\
I understand that there is obviously no possible way to persuade someone who has understanding of animal research, and I respect your ethical choice. I am relieved that I did at least relieve some of your worries, as for some reason people just seem to like to comment about these things without knowing literally anything about it. Seriously, we're not monsters that torture animals for fun and "research" and that's exactly the image we get from people. That's the basic premise of why I do reply to obviously heavily misinformed posts like the ones above you.
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  #24  
Old 10-10-2010, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

Kenny, I basically was saying it was sickening on the usage of forcing animals to eat chocolate and have make up put on them and stuff, and the fact we force the stuff on them, BUT BUT BUT...

It is needed, to provide a health ecosystem.
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  #25  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Kenny, I basically was saying it was sickening on the usage of forcing animals to eat chocolate and have make up put on them and stuff, and the fact we force the stuff on them, BUT BUT BUT...

It is needed, to provide a health ecosystem.
That is sickening. The only animal experimentation that anyone is condoning here is medical testing. I'd make arguments but Kenny's covered them all, so I'll just say that I support the use of less intelligent animals like mice and rats for drug testing.
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

Kenny, I'm going to say that honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about, and it seems like you're just trying to confuzzle me here... You seem to be repeatedly changing the topic.

But, that may just be because I'm not really informed on the topic. Our arguing here is going to change nothing in the fields of animal experimentation, so I'm going to just drop this because all it's doing is just giving me a headache. @_@

But anyway, we have different opinions, but I hope there are no hard feelings or anything because of it. Time to go play FF4H.~
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2010, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Kaioo View Post
Kenny, I basically was saying it was sickening on the usage of forcing animals to eat chocolate and have make up put on them and stuff, and the fact we force the stuff on them, BUT BUT BUT...

It is needed, to provide a health ecosystem.
Some animals love chocolate, actually. I believe my professor's dog liked to eat chocolate every now and then. :3

The idea of animal experimentation obviously does include the cosmetics industry, which was why I have clearly separated the cosmetics industry from real research earlier in the page to avoid any confusion. I have also stated that our technology is getting good enough that even the cosmetics industry has moved to growing human skin for cosmetics testing without using stem cells. However, our technology isn't good enough to grow entire organs and the like without stem cells. If we want to learn more about say our immune system, well we need animal models like mice.

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Originally Posted by Male Snorunt View Post
Kenny, I'm going to say that honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about, and it seems like you're just trying to confuzzle me here... You seem to be repeatedly changing the topic.

But, that may just be because I'm not really informed on the topic. Our arguing here is going to change nothing in the fields of animal experimentation, so I'm going to just drop this because all it's doing is just giving me a headache. @_@

But anyway, we have different opinions, but I hope there are no hard feelings or anything because of it. Time to go play FF4H.~
To put it bluntly, the majority of the people care less about the poor than animals. The poor suffer way more than animals in experiments because there isn't a law stating that people should be treated decently. We, the rich, are a minority in this world. Thus under your assumptions, we would be ones who would value the life of animals more than humans as long as they are poor.
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  #28  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Animal Experimentation

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Originally Posted by Kenny_C.002 View Post
Some animals love chocolate, actually. I believe my professor's dog liked to eat chocolate every now and then. :3

The idea of animal experimentation obviously does include the cosmetics industry, which was why I have clearly separated the cosmetics industry from real research earlier in the page to avoid any confusion. I have also stated that our technology is getting good enough that even the cosmetics industry has moved to growing human skin for cosmetics testing without using stem cells. However, our technology isn't good enough to grow entire organs and the like without stem cells. If we want to learn more about say our immune system, well we need animal models like mice.



To put it bluntly, the majority of the people care less about the poor than animals. The poor suffer way more than animals in experiments because there isn't a law stating that people should be treated decently. We, the rich, are a minority in this world. Thus under your assumptions, we would be ones who would value the life of animals more than humans as long as they are poor.
Okay, now that makes a lot more sense. But I'm just going to drop out of this discussion, seeing as I'm so uninformed about it.
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