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  #31  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

"God created the heavens and the earth." That's all I need as a Chirstian.

But I really don't care about this whole "Origin of the Universe" argument. People have choose there own answers to this question, rather it's the Big Bang or Creation, if it helps you through the day, then that is all that matters. I personally think we will never find the answer, no, we're not suppose to find the answer. It's really all about faith and faith doesn't exisit when you know the answer.
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  #32  
Old 09-28-2010, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Pokemon View Post
I totally agree. That's why, in my opinion, we want a God or something superior, "the meaning of Life", to exist.
By the way, a fox is an evolved mammal and shouldn't be compared with the other two. It's like saying dog, which sounds really bad to me (maybe a little snobby) (no offense, just saying my opinion).
That's exactly my point. It doesn't matter if something is an "evolved mammal". We all die, and that's why a human, a dog, a fox, a fish, and a fly can all be accurately compared. We all have death in common.

Just my opinion as well.
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  #33  
Old 09-28-2010, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
The thing is with me... I won't pretend I'm some expert on the Big Bang Theory or something like that. But doesn't the Big Bang Theory say that the Universe was created by two specks colliding or something? Where did the specks come from?

A Rule of Science: something can't come from nothing.
Quote:
Actually, there are many theories that say that something can come out of nothing, because nothing is too unstable for example, or that two opposite something can, which together are equal to nothing (matter and antimatter). But I won't bet my life on it. It's quite funny though.
Well actually thats not the definition of nothingness. Matter and antimatter which would cancel out each other so that we have zero amount of matter at the end of the day, thats not nothing. Nothing in fact is an idea that has no attributes. And from an idea where there is no particle nor waves there cannot form new particles. That would be against the law of causality. Some people try to bring Quantum Mechanics into this, but resorting to Quantum Mechanics to bring an explanation as to how matter forms from nothingness, thats just personal, and in fact biased, interpretation.

Quote:
...Then again, that raises the question of where God came from. I won't get into that. Makes my head hurt.
To get the answer to this question, consider this: When you say "Where God came from", ask yourself: why is it so that everything has to come from another thing/being/whatever. The answer we get is the Law of Causality, that an effect cannot take place without a cause (think about a set of falling dominoes, Domino number x falls because domino number x-1 pushed it). However what we forget is that the Law of Causality is a Physical Law ascribable to Nature. In other words, anything that is confined within the physical world, abiding by the laws of nature, would abide by this law as well. Basically heres your answer: is God confined within the Physical World? And/or bound by the laws of Nature? the answer is a resounding No. Therefore, Since God is not restricted to Nature, the Laws of Nature shouldnt be attributed to him. Hence Causality doesnt apply to Him either. He exists without a Cause. How is that Possible? since He is outside the Physical world, thus not bound by the laws of causality.

Bottomline: the "who created God" argument is old and has been beaten to death quite a few million times. And the explanation is simplistic as well. There is no reason whatsoever why it should make your head hurt :-p

Quote:
I totally agree. That's why, in my opinion, we want a God or something superior, "the meaning of Life", to exist.
Im getting pretty tired of saying this, but blind hypothesizing doesnt really help anyone.

If you have an authoritative evidence for what you claim, or pragmatic reason to believe it, bring it forth, we would dissect it and see if it appeals to rationalism.

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Originally Posted by ScubatheDiverman View Post
"God created the heavens and the earth." That's all I need as a Chirstian.

But I really don't care about this whole "Origin of the Universe" argument. People have choose there own answers to this question, rather it's the Big Bang or Creation, if it helps you through the day, then that is all that matters. I personally think we will never find the answer, no, we're not suppose to find the answer. It's really all about faith and faith doesn't exisit when you know the answer.
Many people dont think about this, but faith requires reasonable justification as well. Not that you need to write these on paper and make a long argument to believe, but without reasoning, there is no justification for anything, not even faith.

When Jesus(peace be upon him) came to this earth, he performed miracles for this exact reason. Just going around the place and telling people to have faith wouldnt make sense at all. He needed to give Reason for his people to believe. His miracles spoke out thus: "These are Signs that this man has been sent by God. So believe in what he says, for this belief is justified with reason." The Christian Tradition conformed to this until very recently.

Same goes for the Prophets preceding him. God always sends His Prophets armed with Miracles and Divine Signs, so that people know Truth from Falsehood. Otherwise every weirdo on the street could come up to people and ask them to have faith in whatever "Divine" message have been "revealed" to them.

For nearly two thousand years, the Church held that Religion is based on Intellect, and not merely Faith. This gave rise to Savants such as St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine. "Faith is Enough Reason" is just a new thing people have invented: it has no actual basis in the Doctrinal teachings of any religion.

If God wants us to believe, He would give us reason to believe in it. Thats the Crux of the Matter.

Triple post merged. Please use edit function.
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  #34  
Old 09-28-2010, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

People, they don't understand. Your grandsons, they won't understand. In spaceships they won't understand, and me, I ain't ever gonna understand. I have given up theorizing on how the universe came to be. Instead, I would like to use the gift of life to create beautiful works of art so that people can feel good. If everyone stopped wondering why and how they came to be, and started doing something else with their time like helping people learn how to read or playing music, who knows what we could accomplish.

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  #35  
Old 09-28-2010, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

I know I'm probably going to be criticized for saying this, but I am a Christian. A very reasonable one, but a Christian nonetheless. God did create the heavens and the earth, or at least started the chain reaction that led to what it is now. Now, I do commend everyone's will or need to have a belief as to how the universe was created, but Christianity isn't as overrated as many people make it out to be. Sure, we are told it is unfathomable as to how God formed everything and planned from beginning to end, or how, to recite the popular Bible quote, "I knew you," before He even made Adam or Eve, or even light itself. I belive science and Christianity go hand and hand. God did tell us to seek the truth; He has and always will encourage quenching our thirst for knowledge and the elimination of ignorance. He knew many people were not going to believe in Him because He didn't want to mess with free will; it says so in the Bible if you look carefully enough, and it even says that it will happen to such a large scale in the Book of Revelations.

However, I am disappointed that some in this thread persist to bring up their belief that "fearing that there is no purpose in life" is not a very good reason to believe. I know you're allowed to believe what you want, but it's definitely not a bad reason to believe what you do. It's the general fuel for belief, which often leads to different reasons why we believe what we believe. But that's just my two cents.
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2010, 02:56 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

By Team Pokemon:

Quote:
And who told you that it was inpired by God. The person who wrote it himself. But even if he/she told you that, how do you know he/she was not crazy or simply lying?
This is precisely what I was getting at when I said what I said to Scubadiver. If you have faith in your religion, bring justification to why you think that religion is true. This should be the attitude of a truth seeker.

Although what Ive said above is from a religiously-unbiased POV, let me drop a line here from my own bias since we've gotten to that point: I have justification for my religion, so I have reason enough to believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Geoffrey View Post
I know I'm probably going to be criticized for saying this, but I am a Christian. A very reasonable one, but a Christian nonetheless. God did create the heavens and the earth, or at least started the chain reaction that led to what it is now. Now, I do commend everyone's will or need to have a belief as to how the universe was created, but Christianity isn't as overrated as many people make it out to be. Sure, we are told it is unfathomable as to how God formed everything and planned from beginning to end, or how, to recite the popular Bible quote, "I knew you," before He even made Adam or Eve, or even light itself. I belive science and Christianity go hand and hand. God did tell us to seek the truth; He has and always will encourage quenching our thirst for knowledge and the elimination of ignorance. He knew many people were not going to believe in Him because He didn't want to mess with free will; it says so in the Bible if you look carefully enough, and it even says that it will happen to such a large scale in the Book of Revelations.

However, I am disappointed that some in this thread persist to bring up their belief that "fearing that there is no purpose in life" is not a very good reason to believe. I know you're allowed to believe what you want, but it's definitely not a bad reason to believe what you do. It's the general fuel for belief, which often leads to different reasons why we believe what we believe. But that's just my two cents.
I dont agree nor disagree with your first cent (para lol), since thats only assertion you have given us and not evidence or pragmatic reason. Im not saying Christianity doesnt have pragmatic reason or anything. But just that you havent provided them, if there are any.

About your second thread: let me drop a cent of my own here, emotion is never good justification for what you believe. Im a Muslim, and the thought of me becoming a Christian is pretty scary(since paradigm shift is something man fears). However, if let this feeling of fear take hold of my rational judgement and I do not give Christianity any benefit of doubt on this premise of emotions, that wouldnt really be justifiable. Im risking my salvation here, cant let emotion guide my judgment. Thats too unsafe.

This reminds me of Blaise Pascal: you can only live happily once the internal duel of reason vs. emotion is minimized and both coexist peacefully together (wording mine, thought his, though later shared by me). ^_^

Double post merged. Please use edit function.
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  #37  
Old 09-28-2010, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah View Post
By Team Pokemon:



This is precisely what I was getting at when I said what I said to Scubadiver. If you have faith in your religion, bring justification to why you think that religion is true. This should be the attitude of a truth seeker.

Although what Ive said above is from a religiously-unbiased POV, let me drop a line here from my own bias since we've gotten to that point: I have justification for my religion, so I have reason enough to believe it.
I can justify murder but that doesn't mean I can commit it. Point being, I believe in what I can see because there's nothing to justify and nothing to actually believe, there just is, period.

Where in my body is my soul located, also? Can someone tell me that please? Cuz my soul hurts when people blindly believe in fables and I'd like to try to medicate it. That said, most of the religious people here seem to have someway of backing themselves up, but to me personally it seems more like some convoluted story that everyone caters slightly to themselves as something to have faith in so they don't have to accept that there is absolutely nothing after death except possibly a dream that fades as our brain activity dies should we be so fortunate to not die from an instant cephalic fatality.

I'm generalizing; as I stated, many people here seem to be more educated in their own beliefs than the common church-going sheep.

I believe there is a purpose to life, and everyone has to find that purpose. And if you don't, I'm sorry, but you don't get a retry.
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  #38  
Old 09-28-2010, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
I can justify murder but that doesn't mean I can commit it.
There must always be method to your madness ^_^

On a serious note, what Im trying to say is that justification is not valid. In other words, Id say the reasoning behind that justification is not sound.

Quote:
Point being, I believe in what I can see because there's nothing to justify and nothing to actually believe, there just is, period.
Believing in empirical evidence and Science is praiseworthy, no doubt about that. The problem is when people make science overstep its authority. Just because something is not empirical doesnt necessarily mean it doesnt exist. Take for example the Higgs particle, which is a necessary component of the Big Bang Theory. This particle hasnt yet been discovered, in other words, empirical evidence for its existence hasnt been found. That doesnt mean we have to discard the whole theory. Because the theory comes as a package deal, just because one component isnt sound (not that its false, just not proven yet) we cannot really say the whole theory is invalid, because it has proven its validity on other issues.

Same can(I said can, not must) apply in the case of religion. If a religion is proven to be true, then its intangible components or those concepts beyond the reach of empirical evidence (Angels for instance) are also pragmatic. Now that we've proven a certain religion (hypothetically), all that comes under its banner would be proven as true and/or pragmatic. An excuse of intangibility would not hold water.

Quote:
Where in my body is my soul located, also? Can someone tell me that please?
Answered above.

Quote:
Cuz my soul hurts when people blindly believe in fables and I'd like to try to medicate it. That said, most of the religious people here seem to have someway of backing themselves up, but to me personally it seems more like some convoluted story that everyone caters slightly to themselves as something to have faith in so they don't have to accept that there is absolutely nothing after death except possibly a dream that fades as our brain activity dies should we be so fortunate to not die from an instant cephalic fatality.
Thats just one small fraction of the whole bag of complexity thats intrinsic to the theistic Mindset. Each believer (I didnt say theist, but believer. Atheists are believers too, quite often) has his own reason and/or motivation to choose what he believes. So such generalizations of yours do not really measure up to intellectual justification demand. ^_^

Quote:
I'm generalizing;
That you are; and the generalization is unfair.

Quote:
I believe there is a purpose to life, and everyone has to find that purpose. And if you don't, I'm sorry, but you don't get a retry.
Thats the whole point. So the issue of rational justification again comes into play.

P.S. your view seems to elluding me. On one hand you are reprimanding the theistic mindset (or what u believe to be the theistic mindset) and on the other you are saying that theres a purpose to life, one that needs to be sought out. Whats your personal view on the matter?
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  #39  
Old 09-28-2010, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah View Post
I dont agree nor disagree with your first cent (para lol), since thats only assertion you have given us and not evidence or pragmatic reason. Im not saying Christianity doesnt have pragmatic reason or anything. But just that you havent provided them, if there are any.

About your second thread: let me drop a cent of my own here, emotion is never good justification for what you believe. Im a Muslim, and the thought of me becoming a Christian is pretty scary(since paradigm shift is something man fears). However, if let this feeling of fear take hold of my rational judgement and I do not give Christianity any benefit of doubt on this premise of emotions, that wouldnt really be justifiable. Im risking my salvation here, cant let emotion guide my judgment. Thats too unsafe.

This reminds me of Blaise Pascal: you can only live happily once the internal duel of reason vs. emotion is minimized and both coexist peacefully together (wording mine, thought his, though later shared by me). ^_^

Double post merged. Please use edit function.
Well, you have just as much right to practice your Muslim faith as much as I have the right to practice my Christian faith. Whether or not your faith or my faith is the most correct is irrelevant and so is what is deemed the "right" way to believe in something. But the human fear of no purpose is natural. True, reason is much better than emotion when it comes to rationality. But my God didn't say I had to know He existed; He told me to believe He does. He comes out in Bible (and I believe also to the Muslim and Jewish faiths) as unfathomable and perfect. We humans are not perfect. Wouldn't it be common sense that we can't understand what is perfect? If we did, we would be perfect already. So "knowing" a deity proves worthless unless you've actually met him/her yourself and knowing that it's really them. I may have never met God, but I hope to someday.

Quote:
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I'm generalizing; as I stated, many people here seem to be more educated in their own beliefs than the common church-going sheep.
I seem to notice that. Even some of the Christians I've met here are more rational and rather loose with some of "popular" Christianity's beliefs. Which can be good.
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2010, 12:12 AM
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...Oh boy.

Okay, first of, I'm agnostic, meaning I believe these things are pretty much impossible to know.
So as everyone knows, Christianity/Judaism/any other religion is based on faith.
Faith that everything that we know was created by some higher power and when we die we go to heaven and chill on some clouds.
However the thing about faith is that it can never be dis-proven.
Science could come up with what they believe to be the proven answer to the universe but religions will still have their faith, and faith is all a religion needs to survive.
So it seems to me that you're all just going over the same "evidence" that man has for years.

Long story short: While I respect everyone's opinions, I don't see the point of discussing this. Nothing has been proven and I doubt anything ever will.
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  #41  
Old 09-29-2010, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kokovo View Post
...Oh boy.

Okay, first of, I'm agnostic, meaning I believe these things are pretty much impossible to know.
So as everyone knows, Christianity/Judaism/any other religion is based on faith.
Faith that everything that we know was created by some higher power and when we die we go to heaven and chill on some clouds.
However the thing about faith is that it can never be dis-proven.
Science could come up with what they believe to be the proven answer to the universe but religions will still have their faith, and faith is all a religion needs to survive.
So it seems to me that you're all just going over the same "evidence" that man has for years.

Long story short: While I respect everyone's opinions, I don't see the point of discussing this. Nothing has been proven and I doubt anything ever will.
Of course there is. For example, this is the only reason why we can clear up some of your misconceptions about science. Science will never "prove" an answer to the universe. Science deals with the natural universe and has nothing to do with the supernatural. Therefore, even if abiogenesis is true, this does not exclude God as the creator behind abiogenesis. Therefore, the pointlessness of the topic stems firstly from misconceptions of science, compounded by religious beliefs.

Some people can't accept that there is a possibility that "there is no meaning to life". Others, like I, have accepted that there is no intrinsic meaning to life, but that it is what we make of it that is its meaning. From my own point of view, it matters not whether or not we transmigrate. It only matters what we do what we feel matters to us. Ironically, this definition has caused me to butt heads with some of our fine users at PE2K more than once. lol
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  #42  
Old 09-29-2010, 03:07 AM
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I am a bit of a mixed bag with creationism and Big Bang.

Scientists have proved that all matter, galaxies and such, are moving in such a way that if you were to reverse the movement of the travel path of the galaxies, they would converge into a single point. This gives credibility to the Big Bang theory. However, something needed to exist for the Big bang to occur, and that is where the Divine comes in. In many religions, including my own, a single word is the catalyst. In Christianity, it is simply refered to as The Word. In the Kemetic Orthodox and ancient Egyptian faith, the word was Ma'at (Order, justice, peace, compassion and righteous action), so that would lead me to believe that to create the universe where nothing existed, to create the Big Bang, something not made of matter or atoms had to exist, henceforth a God or Goddess or simply a Divine Being, a Will of the Universe, call it whatever you desire.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Well, you have just as much right to practice your Muslim faith as much as I have the right to practice my Christian faith.
Im somewhat lost as to what du mean by "right". If you mean social rights then of course thats true. But if you mean Intellectual Justification, then that perhaps is open to debate. Forget the perhaps, that IS open to debate.

Quote:
Whether or not your faith or my faith is the most correct is irrelevant and so is what is deemed the "right" way to believe in something.
I dont think its irrelevant. I think thats the whole point of this thread. "What is the Reason for this Universe to exist?" thats how this thread started out. So we need to flush out the truth as to our purpose as human beings.

No offense intended whatsoever, I only want you to clarify your stance, but I dont really understand what you are getting at here. Of course we need intellectual justification for our faith. Its not that there are multiple parallel threads of Truth stretched out for you and you can pick whichever one you want and that will give you not only intellectual security but also salvation. Its not like that. If you are not willing to give it the benefit of doubt, consider this: every single major system of fiaht in this world Jealously and Zealously claims that it is right and every other faith is wrong. In Christianity you get Salvation through the Blood of Jesus Christ. In Islaam on the other hand you get salvation by Submitting to One God, singling him out in worship and obeying his commands. These are contradictory terms. You cant say both Islaam and Christianity is true and we both have equal intellectual justification to believe what we believe. For if there is One God out there, there cannot be multiple, and most importantly, contradicting, ways that claim to lead to him. Ther must just be one Truth. And we need to flush out what that is by using the intellect God so Graciously gave us.

Quote:
But the human fear of no purpose is natural. True, reason is much better than emotion when it comes to rationality. But my God didn't say I had to know He existed; He told me to believe He does. He comes out in Bible (and I believe also to the Muslim and Jewish faiths) as unfathomable and perfect. We humans are not perfect. Wouldn't it be common sense that we can't understand what is perfect? If we did, we would be perfect already. So "knowing" a deity proves worthless unless you've actually met him/her yourself and knowing that it's really them. I may have never met God, but I hope to someday.
I agree with what you said about we cannot know God. However thats beside the issue here. The topic of discussion is not whether we can know God or not, its whether we can know what purpose God created us for or not. In other words, its not about knowing the exact nature of Truth, but about knowing, in fact, identifying, what the Truth is. If we dont agree on this, then that means the God out there is irresponsible and he leaves the decision of salvation open to conjecture. Heck, every weirdo on the street can come up to you or me and claim that hes a Prophet of God and that he commanded everyone to believe in him. Point being, religion is a matter of belief, but there must always be justification for our belief.

Copied from post#33 above:
Quote:
Many people dont think about this, but faith requires reasonable justification as well. Not that you need to write these on paper and make a long argument to believe, but without reasoning, there is no justification for anything, not even faith.

When Jesus(peace be upon him) came to this earth, he performed miracles for this exact reason. Just going around the place and telling people to have faith wouldnt make sense at all. He needed to give Reason for his people to believe. His miracles spoke out thus: "These are Signs that this man has been sent by God. So believe in what he says, for this belief is justified with reason." The Christian Tradition conformed to this until very recently.

Same goes for the Prophets preceding him. God always sends His Prophets armed with Miracles and Divine Signs, so that people know Truth from Falsehood. Otherwise every weirdo on the street could come up to people and ask them to have faith in whatever "Divine" message have been "revealed" to them.

For nearly two thousand years, the Church held that Religion is based on Intellect, and not merely Faith. This gave rise to Savants such as St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine. "Faith is Enough Reason" is just a new thing people have invented: it has no actual basis in the Doctrinal teachings of any religion.

If God wants us to believe, He would give us reason to believe in it. Thats the Crux of the Matter.
Response to kokovo:

Quote:
Okay, first of, I'm agnostic, meaning I believe these things are pretty much impossible to know.
So as everyone knows, Christianity/Judaism/any other religion is based on faith.
Faith requires justification, as discussed above.

Quote:
Faith that everything that we know was created by some higher power and when we die we go to heaven and chill on some clouds.
However the thing about faith is that it can never be dis-proven.
Science could come up with what they believe to be the proven answer to the universe but religions will still have their faith, and faith is all a religion needs to survive.
The "disproven" religion might survive in the hearts and minds of people, but it would lose all its intellectual basis, and one can be blamed for choosing that religion. The term "faith" might seem innocent, but factors motivate this faith, positively and negatively. On a negative side, faith can be formed because of a feeling of attachment or bias, it can form out of brainwashing (by parents, etc), it can form even out of arrogance. These types of faiths are reprimandable. To give an example: When Jesus(peace be upon him) came with the miracles (assuming He did), the Jews had no intellectual objections against the faith He was preaching. they only rejected him out of biased bigotry and arrogance. So this type of faith is reprimandable.

Important note: The above few sentences have been written only out of the assumption that the Christian and Muslim version of the story of Jesus performing Miracles to the Children of Israel is True. So a follower of the Jewish religion need not take this seriously.


Quote:
So it seems to me that you're all just going over the same "evidence" that man has for years.
Not sure what you are getting at here. what evidence did man have for years?
Quote:
Long story short: While I respect everyone's opinions, I don't see the point of discussing this. Nothing has been proven and I doubt anything ever will.
Depends on what you mean by "proven". On a polemical level, every faith has its own intellectual justification (Scriptural evidence for instance, like fulfillment of prophecies, pragmatism of the message etc). In other words, every faith has its "proof" on a polemical level, and these can be very much debated on, for and against. You are brushing aside this important fact and not giving anything any benefit of doubt, which is kind of narrow-minded (no offense intended, Im criticising the view you take and not you as a person).

Kenny:

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Some people can't accept that there is a possibility that "there is no meaning to life". Others, like I, have accepted that there is no intrinsic meaning to life, but that it is what we make of it that is its meaning. From my own point of view, it matters not whether or not we transmigrate. It only matters what we do what we feel matters to us. Ironically, this definition has caused me to butt heads with some of our fine users at PE2K more than once. lol
I appreciate and respect the intellectual tone you use. But I think both of us will agree that blind hypothesizing on the matter doesnt really help anyone looking for the actual meaning behind all this. smile
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:38 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah View Post
I dont think its irrelevant. I think thats the whole point of this thread. "What is the Reason for this Universe to exist?" thats how this thread started out. So we need to flush out the truth as to our purpose as human beings.
The question was a hypothetical and philisophical one. We have absolutely no way of knowing for certain why we're here unless the Powers that Be come into this plane of existence and tell us directly him/her/themselves.

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No offense intended whatsoever, I only want you to clarify your stance, but I dont really understand what you are getting at here. Of course we need intellectual justification for our faith. Its not that there are multiple parallel threads of Truth stretched out for you and you can pick whichever one you want and that will give you not only intellectual security but also salvation. Its not like that. If you are not willing to give it the benefit of doubt, consider this: every single major system of fiaht in this world Jealously and Zealously claims that it is right and every other faith is wrong. In Christianity you get Salvation through the Blood of Jesus Christ. In Islaam on the other hand you get salvation by Submitting to One God, singling him out in worship and obeying his commands. These are contradictory terms. You cant say both Islaam and Christianity is true and we both have equal intellectual justification to believe what we believe. For if there is One God out there, there cannot be multiple, and most importantly, contradicting, ways that claim to lead to him. Ther must just be one Truth. And we need to flush out what that is by using the intellect God so Graciously gave us.

I agree with what you said about we cannot know God. However thats beside the issue here. The topic of discussion is not whether we can know God or not, its whether we can know what purpose God created us for or not. In other words, its not about knowing the exact nature of Truth, but about knowing, in fact, identifying, what the Truth is. If we dont agree on this, then that means the God out there is irresponsible and he leaves the decision of salvation open to conjecture. Heck, every weirdo on the street can come up to you or me and claim that hes a Prophet of God and that he commanded everyone to believe in him. Point being, religion is a matter of belief, but there must always be justification for our belief.

Copied from post#33 above:


Response to kokovo:



Faith requires justification, as discussed above.



The "disproven" religion might survive in the hearts and minds of people, but it would lose all its intellectual basis, and one can be blamed for choosing that religion. The term "faith" might seem innocent, but factors motivate this faith, positively and negatively. On a negative side, faith can be formed because of a feeling of attachment or bias, it can form out of brainwashing (by parents, etc), it can form even out of arrogance. These types of faiths are reprimandable. To give an example: When Jesus(peace be upon him) came with the miracles (assuming He did), the Jews had no intellectual objections against the faith He was preaching. they only rejected him out of biased bigotry and arrogance. So this type of faith is reprimandable.
Well then let me ask you a question. What proof is there for Islam? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammad never actually did any miracles, nor was he actually divine in any way. He was just a man with a wife, a kid and a day job who claimed to hear an angel delivering revelation to him. Whether he was telling the truth or not, I don't know, but people believed him, not because he offered any proof but because they really liked what he was saying. There was no intellectual basis, and unless I'm very much wrong there still isn't. What evidence do you have that proves that there is no God but God and Mohammad is His prophet?
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  #45  
Old 10-01-2010, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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The question was a hypothetical and philisophical one. We have absolutely no way of knowing for certain why we're here unless the Powers that Be come into this plane of existence and tell us directly him/her/themselves.
If you are talking about absolute mathematical proof about these, then there are none, because that cannot even be applied here. Things like socilogy, politics and religious doctrines, they cannot be proven with mathematical evidence, nor empirical one. At the end of the day its a matter of belief, but- and its a big but- that belief need to be justified by Intellectual means. Sure, there might not be any proof for it, but there might be every pragmatic reason to believe in it. Please refer to my first post in this particular thread for more info on this.

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Well then let me ask you a question. What proof is there for Islam?
I wonder if this thread is proper to answer that question, why do we not discuss this elsewhere? Open another thread perhaps?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammad never actually did any miracles, nor was he actually divine in any way.
Well you're wrong, Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) did perform miracles, but that is completely besides the issue. Whether someone performed (the past tense is important) any miracle or not doesnt have any bearing on the matters truth. We have Prophets all over the Bbile performing signs and miracles, this doesnt ipso facto prove they are Genuine Prophets of God. The reason is obvious, you are not able to verify whether what those authors were saying about Miracles are true or not. You cannot go back in time machine (at least not todays age) to check if those people were legit.

Secondly, whether Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) was Divine or not this true is completely besides the issue. A person claiming divinity doesnt show hes legit in claiming that. We have had loads of people from all over the world claiming Divinity. This does not add a salt-grains intellectual weight to their claims.

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He was just a man with a wife, a kid and a day job who claimed to hear an angel delivering revelation to him. Whether he was telling the truth or not, I don't know, but people believed him, not because he offered any proof but because they really liked what he was saying.
First off, there are proofs, and there are intellectual basis, and people believed him out of the evidence he brought with him, as well as the clarity and sensibility in his message. Islaam is kind of a package deal: there are multiple "facets" to it that is intellectually appealing. A person can claim to be intellectually legit if he picks any of these, as long as his motivations for picking Islaam as a religion is legit.

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There was no intellectual basis, and unless I'm very much wrong there still isn't.
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What evidence do you have that proves that there is no God but God and Mohammad is His prophet?
You're very much wrong. Again, should we discuss this issue right here in this thread or open another one?
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