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  #16  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:26 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Master Groudon View Post
I think the univrse was made for the purpose to live life. The true meaning of life is to live it to the fulest. Once your a free man/or/woman. You can do almost anything you want. And when you die, people are gona remember you for what you did.
I totally agree! Well, not totally totally. We need to live the fullest, but helping others, humans or not, to do so too. And that universe was not necessarily made, because this means, or sounds like at least, that somebody made it.
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  #17  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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In my opinion, the universe doesn't have to have a creator.
Well to even ask a question like "Does the Universe have to have a Creator?" brings about complexity. It should be phrased as such: If the Universe didnt have a Creator, would such and such (possibly negative) things have happened? Like us not having any reason to live? Or, it could be phrased this way: Does the Universe have to have a Creator in order for it to exist? In other words, Does a Creator exist or not? So you see a lot of connotations can be attached to it.

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As it's already been said (or not), God is what humans thought up to give to their life meaning and feel they has a purpose to accomplish.
That might be your personal assessment, but not necessarily the truth. Right off the bat you have refused to give any Ideology that promotes the concept of God any benefit of Doubt, and this caused you to reach this conclusion. That of course is flawed, to arrive at a conclusion we need to give benefit of doubt to every ideology related to it.

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But the sheer fact that life appeared out of dead matter
Abiogenesis is still a hypothesis.
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and that it requires very specific and rare conditions in order to be maintained is something amazing, from a scientific point of view. We don't need a reason to live, because the fact that we live is a reason itself. We have the ability to think of why we are here. Isn't that awesome? Of course it is, considering that less than 0,00001% (or maybe even more) of the total matter in the universe participated in the creation of, and now is part of, living creatures.
This phenomenon you speak of can be interpreted in a number of ways. Your interpretation is that Life in and of itself is a reason and a brilliant miracle and we should try our hardest to preserve it. However the interpretation of a theist would be that since this Universe has been Designed specifically to accommodate for human existence, therefore it actually shows that God gave us a purpose to live (Im a proponent of this particular opinion since it appears to be more sensible that anything that serves so intricate a purpose needs to be borne of Design). What is that purpose? Like I said in my previous posts, that is open to debate. This decision should be based on whether the religion caliming to have the truth is pragmatic or not.

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Our goal, thus, is to preserve the miracle of life, because it may be so rare (we don't even know if there's life beyond Earth).
As I said, thats personal interpretation, second, like I said in my previous post, that is ignoring the big picture of the purpose of life. "Sustaining Life" is fragment of the Big Picture of "Purpose of Life". Maginifying this considerably small picture and trying to substitute the Big question of our Life's purpose with it would be demotivational, and even irrational.

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However, we insist on killing the planet and , egoistically, extend our species's territory. So, isn't it hypocritical asking whether there's a meaning in life when we simply destroy it?
I agree with the Rhetoricism present in this question, but this is kind of beside the issue, as you yourself might admit.
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  #18  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Team Pokemon View Post
I totally agree! Well, not totally totally. We need to live the fullest, but helping others, humans or not, to do so too. And that universe was not necessarily made, because this means, or sounds like at least, that somebody made it.
OH! and when i die, im gona go out with a bang:

Death 1 Heart attack: I would grab my gameboy, turn it on and when i die, its gona say pokemon ruby.

Death 2 Hit by a car: I would smile

Death 3 Get shot: Im gona be all extra dramatic and start rolling on the floor and waving my arms!

Death 4 Some body pulled the plug: I would throw that thing that measures my heart beat at the person.

Death 4.5 Somebody pulled the plug: I would push the nurse button and the rest i cant say. its to graphic. and its not what your thinking about.

So yeah.

If i had to live life to the fullest, i would make the best video game in the world.
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  #19  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Groudon View Post
I think the univrse was made for the purpose to live life. The true meaning of life is to live it to the fulest. Once your a free man/or/woman. You can do almost anything you want. And when you die, people are gona remember you for what you did.
we are forgetting here that hypothesizing about something of which we have no idea makes no sense!

To find the truth about the meaning of our life, we need to consider the proponents of these meanings. Whichever appeals to Human Intellect, we follow!

helping others and living life to its fullest sounds good, but it ignores the question, which is what is the purpose of this Life to an Individual? In layman's terms, whats in it for me?

But again, let me stress that hypothesizing without pragmatic benefit doesnt really help!
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  #20  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:41 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Hassan_Descartes_AbdAllah View Post
we are forgetting here that hypothesizing about something of which we have no idea makes no sense!

To find the truth about the meaning of our life, we need to consider the proponents of these meanings. Whichever appeals to Human Intellect, we follow!

helping others and living life to its fullest sounds good, but it ignores the question, which is what is the purpose of this Life to an Individual? In layman's terms, whats in it for me?

But again, let me stress that hypothesizing without pragmatic benefit doesnt really help!
Maybe there is no meanign at all. We shouldn't take it for granted that there is one. Besides, this is the goal of this thread, to decide whether there is a meaning or not. Personally, to be clear, I don't think there is a meaning. But preserving life and living to the fullest can be, or even better become, the GOAL of life. There is a huge difference between meaning and goal.
And, actually, I don't think the killing life part is that irrelevant. I just want to point out that when we say life, we mean EVERY creature, not just humans. Even microbes are life at some extend.
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Last edited by Team Pokemon; 09-27-2010 at 02:47 PM.
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  #21  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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And a question I just thought of: what's the meanign of life if God does exist? I mean, what's the difference. We will go to heaven/hell and live there for the eternity. And?
Thats not the question relating to purpose of life.Being in the Company of God is a purpose which considers the big picture of Life requiring a purpose. The "difference" is this considers th big picture, other hypotheses dont, and are demotivational to say the least, not to mention Irrational has possibilities of being untrue. Being in the company of God or being punished for Evil Actions/choices is however something to look forward to/beware of and this could be a valid candidate for the purpose of this life.

But as I keep saying repeatedly, we need to focus on the pragmatic reasons the proponents of these meanings put forth.
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  #22  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Maybe there is no meanign at all. We shouldn't take it for granted that there is one.
Now we are starting to see eye to eye. I agree its open to debate. But we shouldnt either hypothesize without proof/reason, or take this or that ideology with grains of salt simply because it goes against what we believe (in this case that life has no meaning).

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But preserving life and living to the fullest can be or even better become, the GOAL of life. There is a huge difference between meaning and goal.
Indeed, but the point of this thread is meaning, and not goal. Plus, the implications of it ignoring the big picture as stated previously, applies here too. Demotivational to say the least, one could stop in his tracks and think to himself: "Whats the point of all this?"

Since you brought up your personal opinion, let me bring up mine: I have been a Muslim for three years now, and there was one time when I thought about becoming an atheist. I pondered over this for three days, and I was afraid at the mere thought of living life without any purpose or meaning. This isnt an argument against athiesm by the way. Its just sharing how Life without a Meaning is demotivational. Life can have a goal and no meaning simultaneously. This, to say the least, is pretty scary a thought.

Quote:
And, actually, I don't think the killing life part is that irrelevant. I just want to point out that when we say life, we mean EVERY creature, not just humans. Even microbes are life at some extend.
Yes, but this thread is talking about meaning of life. Not the goal of it, leave alone whether we are living up to this goal or not.
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  #23  
Old 09-27-2010, 03:00 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

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I have been a Muslim for three years now, and there was one time when I thought about becoming an atheist. I pondered over this for three days, and I was afraid at the mere thought of living life without any purpose or meaning.
Thank you very much for this chance to answer back. As you said, you were afraid. Many people want life to have a meaning, because they are frightened by the fact that they may be completely responsible of their actions and that there is nobody stronger to protect them. It's normal ofcourse, I do too. But it's a factor that doesn't allow us to think clearly. It prevents us from seeing or accepting the truth, which is that we have no actually actual proof of God's existence, and thus thinking about life's meaning over.
And being an atheist doesn't necessarilly mean that you believe there is no meaning in life. It means you believe in anything you want, but without being loyal or believing in the one/ones (I am reffering to gods, God, deities etc) the other religions do. I was having the same warries, as I am a christian but not fully agree with everything Christianism says (eg life after death). However, I don't want to be an atheist because a) it seems like you reject everything and feels you are alone b) I do agree with what Christianism says about unity, peace, balance, cooperation.
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Last edited by Team Pokemon; 09-27-2010 at 03:20 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-27-2010, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Thank you very much for this chance to answer back.
Forgive me if its my own imagination, but is that tone condescending?

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As you said, you were afraid. Many people want life to have a meaning, because they are frightened by the fact that they may be completely responsible of their actions and that there is nobody stronger to protect them.
That is not at all where I was and am coming from. Its not because of the fact that I have to take responsibility for my own actions, because thats the way it is even though Im a believer of God and Predestination. People have to take responsibility of what they do, and should consider the consequences. And I was definitely not suffering from lack of protection at all. As I clearly said earlier, the thought that Life has no Meaning was the cause of my worries, that is it. Please dont read into my situtation things that werent present to begin with.

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But it's a factor that doesn't allow us to think clearly.
I disagree with that. You can give a scary thought enough benefit of doubt too. I have considered Christianity as a religion as well. The thought of shifting my intellectual paradigm whole was scary, but that didnt prevent me from rationally looking into it and taking a decision regarding it. It would only disallow us to think clearly if we dont have that urge to have rational reaosns for our conviction.

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It prevents us from seeing or accepting the truth, which is that we have no actually actual proof of God's existence
I strongly urge you to read my first post in this thread, Ive discussed the issue of Evidence of God and the requirement of it etc in some detail. Not too much detail though.

Quote:
And being an atheist doesn't necessarilly mean that you believe there is no meaning in life. It means you believe in anything you want, but without being loyal or believing in the one/ones (I am reffering to gods, God, deities etc) the other religions do.
If by an atheist you mean a believer in deterministic materialism, then there is no deeper meaning of Life. What the atheists determine as their "purpose" of life is they take a fragment out of their life, make it a goal to achieve, and magnify it to such an extent so that they substitute the big picture of life with this fragmental view of reality. Again, refer to my first post, because I ve talked about it there as well.

As for being Loyal and or Submitting to this or that Deity, thats besides the issue. If you label that as the sole meaning of life according to theists, then theists would say atheists have no meaning in life. But again, thats besides the issue. Since The believer in Deterministic materialism only believes things that appear to them and not any meaning behind it. What is the meaning of me sitting here writing this? The meaning is Im sitting here, and writing this. Thats it. Theres no meaning to it. That is what deterministic materialism is.

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However, I don't want to be an atheist because a) it seems like you reject everything and feels you are alone
If you are a Christian only because of your worry that leaving christianity would make you feel alone, then I think that is not a rational behavior, and from an intellectual viewpoint, such attitude is, no offense, deplorable. You want to accept something, judge it on the balance of rational thought. Want to reject something? same Criterion apply. Doing or not doing something out of emotion, well lets just say emotion isnt the right motivation in such things.

Quote:
I do agree with what Christianism says about unity, peace, balance, cooperation.
Richard Carrier writes, I dont see why these traits need to be called "Christian" and not simply "human". : )
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  #25  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:02 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

Of course I don't want to insult you. I just like having actual conversations with people, and you gave me the chance to have one. When I say alone, I mean not being part of the bigger image/plan that could be true. And yes, Christianism and humanism are the same thing at some points and I do believe in the virtues of humanism. I will read your first post and answer asap.
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  #26  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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When I say alone, I mean not being part of the bigger image/plan that could be true.
Same case applies here. If you let this fear of not being part of of the bigger picture get in your way of making the right choice, this is equally deplorable. My point was only about the fact that this thought is scary and not motivational, and nothing else. Im not saying every atheist should become theists only because of the fact that the thought of having no meaning in life is scary, but rather because of the pragmatism, reason and/or evidence theism(or ay worldview for that matter) might carry.
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Legend collector View Post
Genesis 1
1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


best answer!!

Thank you very much. :)

The thing is with me... I won't pretend I'm some expert on the Big Bang Theory or something like that. But doesn't the Big Bang Theory say that the Universe was created by two specks colliding or something? Where did the specks come from?

A Rule of Science: something can't come from nothing.

...Then again, that raises the question of where God came from. I won't get into that. Makes my head hurt.
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  #28  
Old 09-27-2010, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

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Thank you very much. :)

The thing is with me... I won't pretend I'm some expert on the Big Bang Theory or something like that. But doesn't the Big Bang Theory say that the Universe was created by two specks colliding or something? Where did the specks come from?

A Rule of Science: something can't come from nothing.

...Then again, that raises the question of where God came from. I won't get into that. Makes my head hurt.
Im gonna reply to this question tomorrow if God wills. Now its bedtime around here so you gotta waity wait a bit longer.
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  #29  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Origin of the universe?

At the end of the day, the only thing I find myself caring about is outer space, how far it goes and what else is out there. It's fascinating and real, and truly mysterious.

Also, I don't think many people can handle that creatures as complex as us die just the same as a fly or a fish or a fox.

(that's some kinda literary device isn't it?)
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:05 PM
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Post Re: Origin of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Doodlebop View Post
Thank you very much. :)

The thing is with me... I won't pretend I'm some expert on the Big Bang Theory or something like that. But doesn't the Big Bang Theory say that the Universe was created by two specks colliding or something? Where did the specks come from?

A Rule of Science: something can't come from nothing.

...Then again, that raises the question of where God came from. I won't get into that. Makes my head hurt.
Actually, there are many theories that say that something can come out of nothing, because nothing is too unstable for example, or that two opposite something can, which together are equal to nothing (matter and antimatter). But I won't bet my life on it. It's quite funny though.

Quote:
Also, I don't think many people can handle that creatures as complex as us die just the same as a fly or a fish or a fox.
I totally agree. That's why, in my opinion, we want a God or something superior, "the meaning of Life", to exist.
By the way, a fox is an evolved mammal and shouldn't be compared with the other two. It's like saying dog, which sounds really bad to me (maybe a little snobby) (no offense, just saying my opinion).
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