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  #16  
Old 05-13-2010, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Dark Shadow Lord View Post
i like the idea but i dont understand why some pokemon have such a low point total. for that reason i think it may need more work
It depends. I tried to give Max an example using Fighting monotypes. Generally, they aren't very versatile and you know exactly what you are getting when you come up against one. They don't usually score points in the special attack department, defensively they aren't the greatest, and they generally lack supporting moves, so you are deriving value based upon their physical attacking value. A different pokemon might have a higher value because they have a more diverse movepool with stats that can back them up, access to support moves, acces to healing moves, access to status changers, etc. Like I said, it is an attempt to cover all of the bases. Kind of a daunting task, though ;)

That's why playtesting is needed to see where the cracks are and what needs changed.

Anyway, even though it was hard for me to write them out from my head, the equations can be found as one of the tabs i nthe spreadsheet. I wanted to make an equation that would cover all pokemon and stay away from special exceptions as much as possible. I wanted to judge Pokemon by data rather than subjectivity. Like I said before, it could be that my equations are completely off base and aren't accurate. Playtesting should buff that out.

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-13-2010 at 05:14 PM.
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  #17  
Old 05-13-2010, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
It depends. I tried to give Max an example using Fighting monotypes. Generally, they aren't very versatile and you know exactly what you are getting when you come up against one. They don't usually score points in the special attack department, defensively they aren't the greatest, and they generally lack supporting moves, so you are deriving value based upon their physical attacking value. A different pokemon might have a higher value because they have a more diverse movepool with stats that can back them up, access to support moves, acces to healing moves, access to status changers, etc. Like I said, it is an attempt to cover all of the bases. Kind of a daunting task, though ;)

That's why playtesting is needed to see where the cracks are and what needs changed.

Anyway, even though it was hard for me to write them out from my head, the equations can be found as one of the tabs i nthe spreadsheet. I wanted to make an equation that would cover all pokemon and stay away from special exceptions as much as possible. I wanted to judge Pokemon by data rather than subjectivity. Like I said before, it could be that my equations are completely off base and aren't accurate. Playtesting should buff that out.

i get the logic behind what your saying that fighters dont seem that great on paper, but in practice fighting pokemon can destory teams
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  #18  
Old 05-13-2010, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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i get the logic behind what your saying that fighters dont seem that great on paper, but in practice fighting pokemon can destory teams
That's the kind of thing I'm trying to sort out. If that is the case and they run rampant, then there should be a quantitative answer to why they do so well.

For instance, if they do so well because of the support they get, then there shouldn't be a problem because that has nothing to do with their value individually. Also, if they run rampant because of the most likely opponents in a tier, it might not have the same applicability in this system because there is a much wider range of possible opponents. Magnezone in OU probably isn't worried about running into a Camerupt.

There is another possibility in terms of how I took typing into account. Offensively, the offensive type modifier I generated for Fighting is middle of the road at best. There could be an equation problem in terms of how I take types into account.

Lots of possibilities, but can't know until some hard data comes in.

Last edited by Dragoon952; 05-13-2010 at 06:26 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-13-2010, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
That's the kind of thing I'm trying to sort out. If that is the case and they run rampant, then there should be a quantitative answer to why they do so well.

For instance, if they do so well because of the support they get, then there shouldn't be a problem because that has nothing to do with their value individually. Also, if they run rampant because of the most likely opponents in a tier, it might not have the same applicability in this system because there is a much wider range of possible opponents. Magnezone in OU probably isn't worried about running into a Camerupt.

There is another possibility in terms of how I took typing into account. Offensively, the offensive type modifier I generated for Fighting is middle of the road at best. There could be an equation problem in terms of how I take types into account.

Lots of possibilities, but can't know until some hard data comes in.
im for testing this system if its only testing it at this point because i have a feeling that more then one of these pokemon is going to be moved up or down in value
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  #20  
Old 05-13-2010, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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im for testing this system if its only testing it at this point because i have a feeling that more then one of these pokemon is going to be moved up or down in value
That's the plan. The stuff I did isn't set in stone. More of a starting point. Need to see where the tweaks need to be and if I'm missing anything.

The first big change I want to implement is Stealth Rock damage. I'm just trying to figure out a way to implement it. So, how about this for a first question: how should stealth rock damage affect the value of the pokemon? Should a 2x weakness subtract 25% off the value and a 4x weaknes subtract 50% of the value? Or should the peanlties be less than that?

That alone might clear up some glaring issues. The flying bugs, normal fliers, etc. will definitely be moved down a bit.
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  #21  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Just a note for all those that are interested in playtesting; there's a group on Serebii forums for all PVS Playtesters. It can be found here:
http://www.serebiiforums.com/group.php?groupid=2660

Dragoon; do you think we should have a playtesting group here as well, for everyone who is only on PE2K?
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  #22  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Just a note for all those that are interested in playtesting; there's a group on Serebii forums for all PVS Playtesters. It can be found here:
http://www.serebiiforums.com/group.php?groupid=2660

Dragoon; do you think we should have a playtesting group here as well, for everyone who is only on PE2K?
Why the heck not? Whatever makes it easier for people to find other playtesters I'm all for it ;)
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Nice one, I'll try and get a group set up now as soon as I figure it out!

[EDIT] Done. PE2K playtesters group can be found here: http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/foru...hp?groupid=827
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Last edited by Max211; 05-13-2010 at 07:26 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
That's the plan. The stuff I did isn't set in stone. More of a starting point. Need to see where the tweaks need to be and if I'm missing anything.

The first big change I want to implement is Stealth Rock damage. I'm just trying to figure out a way to implement it. So, how about this for a first question: how should stealth rock damage affect the value of the pokemon? Should a 2x weakness subtract 25% off the value and a 4x weaknes subtract 50% of the value? Or should the peanlties be less than that?

That alone might clear up some glaring issues. The flying bugs, normal fliers, etc. will definitely be moved down a bit.
Stealth Rock Damage is important because its used so often. when a pokemon switches what is the percentage of damage they are taking? figure out that general number and youll have and idea of what to subtract
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Dark Shadow Lord View Post
Stealth Rock Damage is important because its used so often. when a pokemon switches what is the percentage of damage they are taking? figure out that general number and youll have and idea of what to subtract
That's where the 25% and 50% come from (2x and 4x weakness respectively). It's just a question of whether that will accurately represent the value reduction and where the deduction should take place. Probably overall value.

I'll have to get to work on that and post new numbers.
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  #26  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Dragoon, how necessary do you think it would be to include a Stealth Rock modifier for all Pokemon? Do you think it should be included in Pokemon neutral to it, such as Skarmory?

Also, once my final uni exam tomorrow is over and done with, I'll be able to help more with calculating values and the like.
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  #27  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

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Originally Posted by Max211 View Post
Dragoon, how necessary do you think it would be to include a Stealth Rock modifier for all Pokemon? Do you think it should be included in Pokemon neutral to it, such as Skarmory?

Also, once my final uni exam tomorrow is over and done with, I'll be able to help more with calculating values and the like.
It should probably only apply to weaknesses. That's what I think anyway. I just need to make sure the deduction isn't too much or too little.
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  #28  
Old 05-13-2010, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

I'd have to agree with you there, but even if it is needed it can always be tested as well.

I've added mention of Stealth Rock modifications, ubers, and Pokemon abilities (Scizor, Machamp, etc) so I think we should have everything covered at the moment.
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  #29  
Old 05-13-2010, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Ok, I have just run some simple number for a Stealth Rock damage adjusted value. I deducted 25% for a 2x weakness and 50% for a 4x weakness. This is what resulted from the Pokemon I've already done:

Pokemon, Original Value->New Value
Abomasnow, 12->9
Aerodactyl, 23->17
Altaria, 16->12
Arcanine, 13->10
Araidos, 6->5
Armaldo, 9->7
Articuno, 18->9
Beautifly, 10->5
Beedrill, 9->7
Butterfree, 10->5
Charizard, 19->10
Chatot, 12->9
Cloyster, 12->9
Crobat, 21->16
Dragonite, 19->14
Drifblim, 17->13
Farfetch'd, 8->6
Flareon, 10->8
Froslass, 17->13
Glaceon, 9->7
Glalie, 10->8
Gyrados, 15->11
Honchkrow, 16->12
Houndoom, 17->13
Moltres, 18->9
Mothim, 11->6
Ninetales, 12->9
Ninjask, 17->9
Pidgeot, 13->10
Salamence, 22->17
Scyther, 15->8
Staraptor, 14->11
Swellow, 16->12
Togekiss, 19->14
Walrein, 14->11
Weavile, 19->14
Xatu, 16->12
Yanmega, 17->13
Zapdos, 19->14

Does any of that sound reasonable? Did that kind of change solve some of the anomalies you initially saw?

Just an inital though. The deduction might be too much, but I figured I'd ask for opinions.
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  #30  
Old 05-13-2010, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: [PVS] A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Seems good so far, although some Pokemon are seeming a bit low for now (Charizard, Gyarados, Salamence, etc). I'm sure with further testing that'll all change though.

By the way Dragoon, do you know if there's any way I can make you a moderator of the group as well?
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